Grimdarkness and Roshar in the back half

[Ripheus23]

The Coppermind says that a future Threnody novel might be the closest thing Sanderson will write to a "grimdark" book. Maybe a peculiar definition of "grimdark" is in play, IDK, I was trying to find out what a "mono-black" deck in MTG would be since the Coppermind also mentions that Ambition's deck would be mono-black, I saw a list of affiliated themes/tribes that includes vampires, so I guess undead stuff, which fits to Threnodite shenanigans well enough, except also to the Fused, so...

... yet for all that, will neo-Roshar not be so grim, not be so dark, after all, despite the Night of Sorrows? The phenomenon of praying to Retribution for Warlight reminds me of how, in the second Covenant novels,

Spoiler

people had to perform blood sacrifices to survive under the perversion of the Land, by the Sunbane, which was the evil god's ruin of the beautiful landscapes we'd gotten glimpses of throughout the first trilogy.

And the second such trilogy has been called "grimdark before the term was coined" IIRC.

I mean, the bridge-running scenario in WoK was pretty grimdark, wasn't it? My go-to examples of the genre would be either WH40K, or the Second Apocalypse books, which aren't too far off from WoK, or OB for that matter (isn't murdering children and your own wife by fire pretty grim/dark??? though see about Peter Orullian's work, which I guess Sanderson knows since Orullian was listed in one of Sanderson's acknowledgements somewhere, I think for OB or something no less*).

So is there a nonstandard definition of "grimdark" in effect, or will Roshar be less dismal than it seems like it will be from our current vantage?

I kinda wonder if what was meant was something more like, "The future Threnody book will be an example of the horror genre," and an off-key word was used in the anticipation instead.

* * * * *

*I.e.,

Spoiler

in his Quillescent saga, there's a subplot about burning a city down, and its people in it, to interfere with the advance of an enemy force, and then we find out some king's wife and child were burned alive in that city. Orullian's writing was really upsetting for me to read at first, it reminded me an awful lot of Goodkind, but I think the city massacre was played as more morally ambiguous, by Orullian, than by Goodkind, IIRC Goodkind seemed to relish preaching about how it was OK to torture and murder "enemy children" during war but the king whose family was murdered was played much more sympathetically, by Orullian, at the end of Trial of Intentions.

[Argenti he/him]

51 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

The Coppermind says that a future Threnody novel might be the closest thing Sanderson will write to a "grimdark" book. Maybe a peculiar definition of "grimdark" is in play, IDK, I was trying to find out what a "mono-black" deck in MTG would be since the Coppermind also mentions that Ambition's deck would be mono-black, I saw a list of affiliated themes/tribes that includes vampires, so I guess undead stuff, which fits to Threnodite shenanigans well enough, except also to the Fused, so...

... yet for all that, will neo-Roshar not be so grim, not be so dark, after all, despite the Night of Sorrows? The phenomenon of praying to Retribution for Warlight reminds me of how, in the second Covenant novels,

  Hide contents

people had to perform blood sacrifices to survive under the perversion of the Land, by the Sunbane, which was the evil god's ruin of the beautiful landscapes we'd gotten glimpses of throughout the first trilogy.

And the second such trilogy has been called "grimdark before the term was coined" IIRC.

I mean, the bridge-running scenario in WoK was pretty grimdark, wasn't it? My go-to examples of the genre would be either WH40K, or the Second Apocalypse books, which aren't too far off from WoK, or OB for that matter (isn't murdering children and your own wife by fire pretty grim/dark??? though see about Peter Orullian's work, which I guess Sanderson knows since Orullian was listed in one of Sanderson's acknowledgements somewhere, I think for OB or something no less*).

So is there a nonstandard definition of "grimdark" in effect, or will Roshar be less dismal than it seems like it will be from our current vantage?

I kinda wonder if what was meant was something more like, "The future Threnody book will be an example of the horror genre," and an off-key word was used in the anticipation instead.

* * * * *

*I.e.,

  Hide contents

in his Quillescent saga, there's a subplot about burning a city down, and its people in it, to interfere with the advance of an enemy force, and then we find out some king's wife and child were burned alive in that city. Orullian's writing was really upsetting for me to read at first, it reminded me an awful lot of Goodkind, but I think the city massacre was played as more morally ambiguous, by Orullian, than by Goodkind, IIRC Goodkind seemed to relish preaching about how it was OK to torture and murder "enemy children" during war but the king whose family was murdered was played much more sympathetically, by Orullian, at the end of Trial of Intentions.

Grimdark isn't  just when something is a grim or dark; there's more to it. Murder, death, darkness, isn't what makes something Grimdark. What makes something Grimdark is hope, more specifically, the lack of it. There is always hope on roshar, even when  there logically shouldn't. Kaladin didn't change 4th bridge by killing people: he inspired hope.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Ripheus23 said:

So is there a nonstandard definition of "grimdark" in effect

To answer this, you would have to say what you consider to be the standard definition of Grimdark to be. Wikipedia says:

Quote

Grimdark is a subgenre of speculative fiction with a tone, style, or setting that is particularly dystopian, amoral, and violent.

<snip>

Whether grimdark is a genre in its own right or an unhelpful label has also been discussed. Valentine noted that while some writers have embraced the term, others see it as "a dismissive term for fantasy that's dismantling tropes, a stamp unfairly applied".

Several attempts to define the neologism grimdark have been made:

• Adam Roberts described it as fiction "where nobody is honourable and Might is Right", and as "the standard way of referring to fantasies that turn their backs on the more uplifting, Pre-Raphaelite visions of idealized medievaliana, and instead stress how nasty, brutish, short and, er, dark life back then 'really' was". But he noted that grimdark has little to do with re-imagining an actual historic reality and more with conveying the sense that our own world is a "cynical, disillusioned, ultraviolent place".
• Genevieve Valentine called grimdark a "shorthand for a subgenre of fantasy fiction that claims to trade on the psychology of those sword-toting heroes, and the dark realism behind all those kingdom politics".
• In the view of Jared Shurin, grimdark fantasy has three key components: a grim and dark tone, a sense of realism (for example, monarchs are useless and heroes are flawed), and the agency of the protagonists: whereas in high fantasy everything is predestined and the tension revolves around how the heroes defeat the Dark Lord, grimdark is "fantasy protestantism": characters have to choose between good and evil, and are "just as lost as we are".
• Liz Bourke considered grimdark's defining characteristic to be "a retreat into the valorisation of darkness for darkness's sake, into a kind of nihilism that portrays right action ... as either impossible or futile". This, according to her, has the effect of absolving the protagonists as well as the reader from moral responsibility.
• Helen Young equates grimdark to gritty fantasy, as exemplified by George R. R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series.

So, there is no one standard definition that has been agreed-upon - but the lack of (or ineffectual application of) hope as a setting seems to be a common theme. Mistborn Era 1 hit many of these traits (flawed heroes, crapsack world, dystopian, amoral, and violent) but I, personally, would still not call it GrimDark because it does not subvert or avrert the power of hope in that setting. WoK may have some dark elements, but is even further from GrimDark as a whole work.

Would you consider something like Dungeon Crawler Carl to be GrimDark? What about Hunger Games?

That said, what you read in the Coppermind is directly based on what Brandon has said.

WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

MasterDex

I love every book of yours I've read. However, I'm a sucker for grim, dark and/or mature fantasy tales (Malazan, Black Company, The First Law, etc). Have you ever considered going right down that route? Have you any stories that you think would fall into more mature/darker territory? Or do you feel that you have no need to go there? (obviously, Stormlight Archive has some quite dark and mature moments but not quite to the level of the aforementioned series)

If you're answer is No, could you explain why?

Brandon Sanderson

The Threnody novel, if I find time with it, would probably be the closest you'll see from me. I've read and enjoyed each of the authors you listed above, though my own writing tends to not lean that direction. One reason is that I tried (when trying to break in) to make my style more gritty to see, since GRRM-like was what everyone was searching for. It just didn't feel true to my own voice.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 12, 2018)

Quote

Rhapsody (paraphrased)

Will the Threnody book take place in the Homeland?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The book is tentatively called The Dusk Brigade. A group wants to free the homeland of the Evil. It doesn't go well for them. Opening scene is all ships sinking and people washing up on shore.

Footnote: The title of The Dusk Brigade was mistakenly believed to be The Dust Brigade until March 2022.
Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

Quote

simon_thekillerewok

You've talked about an upcoming book on Threnody called The Dust Brigade. What are we supposed to understand now that we've learned about the Night Brigade?

Brandon Sanderson

I've canonized that as the Night Brigade instead. I like the term "the Dusk Brigade" better, but I already have a character named Dusk, and so I decided to go with a name that's just a little more generic but doesn't copy one of the character names. So The Night Brigade will be the title of the Threnody novel. When and if I get around to writing it, you will find out who the Dusk Brigade is!

Adam Horne

Is this a homage to the Night Watch?

Brandon Sanderson

It is more an homage to the Black Company.

Footnote: The title of The Dusk Brigade was mistakenly believed to be The Dust Brigade until March 2022.
Secret Project #4 Reveal and Livestream (March 29, 2022)

 

So, if the fan theory on the Evil is correct (an Avatar or Splinter created by the combination of the ripped off power of Odium and Ambition combining after their clash on Threnody) then it certainly has potential to be darker than any other Sanderson we have seen so far.

1 hour ago, Ripheus23 said:

I was trying to find out what a "mono-black" deck in MTG would be since the Coppermind also mentions that Ambition's deck would be mono-black

Technically, Brandon did not say her deck would be Black, he said her Card would be Black Color Identity.

Spoiler

LordSkybreaker

Hey u/mistborn I have a couple questions about Magic: the gathering.

What colors/kind of deck do you play in magic?

What colors are the known shards?

What colors are the various orders of the knights Radiant?

And finally, have you ever thought of doing the story for Wizards Of The Coast on one of their mtg blocks?

Brandon Sanderson

Any combo-style deck I can draft--or esper if I'm constructed.

Ruin: Black. Odium: Red. Honor: White. Preservation: White. Cultivation: Green. Devotion: Green/red. Dominion: Black/White. Autonomy: It's complicated.

(Also, question 3 is way too large for me to commit to right now. And for 4, if the right opportunity came along and they were interested, I could see myself doing this.)

SoupOrMan692

What about Endowment and Ambition?

Brandon Sanderson

Ambition is mono-black, and endowment is probably mono-green. Some of the blue shards are ones we haven't seen as much from yet.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 5, 2018)

From the Magic the Gathering Color Theory Article for Black:

Spoiler

Black looks at all the other colors and feels that each of them sees the world as they wish it to be. Black is the only realist, the only color to look and see the world as it is. An individual is free to have whatever they want, provided they have the power to obtain and keep it. This makes power the most important resource, because it's the one thing that can guarantee your ability to control your life and thus your happiness.

It's important for everyone to understand that black didn't make the world greedy. The world was already greedy; black has just learned how to thrive within it. Black has two big things on its side. One, it understands and accepts the system better than anyone else. And two, black doesn't place any restrictions on itself that make its success more difficult.

Black's philosophy is very simple: There's no one better suited to look after your own interests than you. Therefore, if everyone looks out after their own interests, you've created a system where everyone has someone looking out for them. In addition, black's system allows everyone the opportunity to succeed. Will everyone succeed? Of course not—but once again, that's not black's doing. That's just how the world works.

The weak will fail. That's what makes them the weak. Doing anything to help them is both prolonging the inevitable and risking failing alongside them. It's not personal to black. Black does what it needs to do to succeed. If others can't do the same, well, then they deserve their fate.

<snip>

What does the color care about? What does the color represent? (examples - full list is long)

• Amorality—Black is not immoral, as black doesn't believe in the concept of morality. Morality is a human construction meant to allow the weak to justify a false position of strength over those more powerful than themselves. Life is not divided into good and evil but rather into what must be done and what needn't be done.

• Fear—Of all the emotions, fear is the one that black has found to grant it the easiest time getting what it wants quickly. Fear tends to motivate individuals to do whatever it takes to remove themselves from the situation that's making them afraid. Black has found this to be a very effective tool, and thus uses it often.

• Sadness/Depression—If you need someone to act quickly, you use fear. If you need someone to be inactive, this is black's favorite emotion to get the job done.

• Pain—This is another great motivator shunned by others. If you can do something simple that gains compliance, why wouldn't you use it?

• Manipulation—If others won't do things because you asked nicely, just stop asking nicely. Once again, self-interest can be used to get individuals to do what you need them to do.

• Machevelian Thinking ("The ends justify the means")—The means are meaningless. People who put value in them are wasting their strength in the wrong place. Who cares why or who or how? In the end, results are all that actually matter.

• Individualism—Black's philosophy on self-reliance stresses how important it is for individuals to be able to look after themselves.

• Sacrifice of Others—Sometimes it takes sacrifice to get things done. Always starts with those that aren't yourself.

Hope that helps

Edited January 16, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Hexagonal He/Him]

27 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Grimdark isn't  just when something is a grim or dark; there's more to it. Murder, death, darkness, isn't what makes something Grimdark. What makes something Grimdark is hope, more specifically, the lack of it. There is always hope on roshar, even when  there logically shouldn't. Kaladin didn't change 4th bridge by killing people: he inspired hope.

I think is a really good point on what the back half could be like. Adolin and Shallan and Renarin and Jasnah fighting for hope would make it less grimdark. While it likely will be solemn, it will have hope as well. OP brought up WH40K as a grim dark example, and I think the main part of that(and most warhammer settings) is the lack of hope. There will almost always be hope in the cosmere just due to the nature of it. I think there could definitely be grim dark in the cosmere(canticle before nomad, the night brigade, early nomads on komashi after the father machine started), but Brandon just shys away from it due to his style. Personally, WaT will likely be the most hopeless of the SA books, as it is literally a countdown to destruction. That could just be me, but the back half could be pretty hopeful while also being grim.

[Ripheus23]

1 hour ago, Argenti said:

What makes something Grimdark is hope, more specifically, the lack of it.

Hmm, that makes referring to the Covenant books as "grimdark before the fact" potentially quite inaccurate, then, since there's always hope somewhere in those books, too. Ironically, there's a spell of dark energy in the second Covenant trilogy that's literally named "the Grim," though 

I wonder then if we're being told that the second Threnody novel, or at least the relevant story however it ends up being told (indirectly through other books maybe), will have a borderline "the Big Bad wins" outcome. So far, in the Second Apocalypse,

Spoiler

that's how things stand w.r.t. the No-God, for example.

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Hope that helps

Thank you! I was having a hard time figuring out how to Google the MTG info I was looking for, didn't seem to be getting any detailed/official results.

Edited January 16, 2025 by Ripheus23

[MagicMaggot]

2 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

... yet for all that, will neo-Roshar not be so grim, not be so dark, after all, despite the Night of Sorrows?

I honestly expect book 6 to be somewhat lighter than 4 or 5. Yeah sure, Retribution's empire is now a thing, but that just seems like a nice setup for plots about resistance within its borders. Kind of like Mistborn, but this time we are already aware of all kinds of cavallery that could come to save the day in one way or another, like adult combat radiant Lift, Navani's awakening heralding tech advancements, the Heralds' return, Mishram's love for "her" people, Sja-Anat's double-dealing, the Order of freedom-loving Willshapers, and agents of the cosmere that want to destabilize Retribution, to name a few. We're taking a step back from sending armies of thousands to their death, and getting closer to ground-level. While getting rid of Retribution is an ultimate goal, there will be more relatable smaller goals that the protagonists can and likely will achive in the earlier books of the second half. If you're far down, there is a lot of way you can go upwards, without making the top seem to close. 

From what we have seen so far the singer empire is about as bad as most rosharan human realms (better than some), just with some singer supremacism mixed in. I doubt we'll see large-scale torture and slavery here. It seems much more likely to me that we'll tackle racial prejudice and Retribution's draft for the cosmere war. And while that's not exactly a nice thing, it's not really worse than the way people were treated in the first installments of the series. The Foreverstorm certainly gives the setting a darker mood, but so did the ashfalls in Mistborn. Dark empire, darker weather, opressed lower class, ruled by a divine dictator, a resistance out of their depths but trying their best... yeah, I've read something like that before, and it wasn't very grimdark. Nothing that a hopeful cast of characters couldn't light up.  

Now, we'll certainly get back to more abundant power and god-smiting stuff sooner or later, and the stakes will rise again, once we do, but I find it hard to predict how the world will look and feel multiple sanderlanches in advance. 

 

Edited January 16, 2025 by MagicMaggot

[Hexagonal He/Him]

12 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:

The Foreverstorm

 

I love this term for it

 

13 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:

Dark empire, darker weather, opressed lower class, ruled by a divine dictator, a resistance out of their depths but trying their best...

 

I have a feeling that it might start like this, but in some states the singers and humans will be relatively similarly treated. Similar in the way higher dahn darkeyes and lower nahn lighteyes, but still similar ish. I do have qualms with the claim of a divine dictator, as we know a number of countries made a deal to maintain their (relative) autonomy. I think it is likely going to be similar to how the Azish empire was, with one main ruler who actually only rules one state(likely El in alethkar or something along those lines) and a number of states that are under that rule, but not totally. From what we saw in Rira, it seems like humans will be lower class, but not by too much.

[Treamayne]

42 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

Thank you! I was having a hard time figuring out how to Google the MTG info I was looking for, didn't seem to be getting any detailed/official results.

No Worries, that first link is the collection of all the other links. So, for example, Brandon has said that Kelsier would be UB or UBR (Blue, Black, Red) - the first two sets of articles are single colors (and the updated version), after that are articles about how the colors work together or affect each other - so the relevant articles in this case would be: Dimir ("Pretty Sneaky Sis") and Grixis ("Looking Out for Number One")

WoB:

Spoiler

Yes, there are multiple, this is the newer/relevant one:

Quote

Glamdring804

While we're on the subject of you and MtG, do you have a spreadsheet or a document somewhere with the color identities of all your characters? Some of them are obvious, like Kelsier being red with maybe a splash of white, but others I can't make a solid decision on, like Vin.

Brandon Sanderson

See, I think Kelsier is blue black--though you're right, he probably has some red to him in his rebellious nature and focus on friendship and emotion. But no, I don't keep track of this. I enjoy talking about it with people, but it isn't an important part of how I design characters.

Glamdring804

Really? Blue black? I see where the blue comes from, and the black as well, but he was always felt like primarily red to me. Namely, his rebelliousness, desire for revenge, and general dislike of society’s structure feel like strong red traits to me. I suppose then, that might make him Grixis?

Brandon Sanderson

I could see Grixis.

Children of the Nameless Reddit AMA (Dec. 18, 2018)

 

Nicknames for Color Combinations:

Spoiler

• W - White
  • WU - Azorius
    • WUB - Esper
  • WB - Orzhov
    • WBR - Mardu
• U - Blue
  • UB - Dimir
    • UBR - Grixis
  • UR - Izzet
    • URG - Temur
• B - Black
  • BR - Rakdos
    • BRG - Jund
  • BG - Golgari
    • BGW - Abzan
• R - Red
  • RG - Gruul
    • RGW - Naya
  • RW - Boros 
    • RWU - Jeskai
• G - Green
  • GW - Selesnya
    • GWU - Bant
  • GU - Simic 
    • GUB - Sultai

Note - Different sets sometimes use different "names" (these are just the most common names) or reorder the colors (Jeskai can be expressed as RWU or URW - but the "feel" remains unchanged)

 

Edited January 16, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[MagicMaggot]

20 minutes ago, Hexagonal said:

I have a feeling that it might start like this, but in some states the singers and humans will be relatively similarly treated. Similar in the way higher dahn darkeyes and lower nahn lighteyes, but still similar ish. I do have qualms with the claim of a divine dictator, as we know a number of countries made a deal to maintain their (relative) autonomy. I think it is likely going to be similar to how the Azish empire was, with one main ruler who actually only rules one state(likely El in alethkar or something along those lines) and a number of states that are under that rule, but not totally. From what we saw in Rira, it seems like humans will be lower class, but not by too much.

I mostly agree, though especially with the regional deals I would actually expect some differences by region. Thaylenah's deal will probably be good enough to basically still be human-led, and yeah, wherever El makes the rules will probably won't put a ceiling on human promotion potential. But with the fused being... well, crazy and broken, I would still expect there to be enough racial mistreatment somewhere to make a plot point from. Though I'd agree that it might be less than one might expect. The recuitment drive and draft might be a bigger topic than that - and even here we might expect exemptions for Thaylenah. Which is another point altogether, with different areas of the realm having different deals, and with Retribution being unwilling (or partially unable) to change the deals, problems are to be expected. 

Edited January 16, 2025 by MagicMaggot

[Treamayne]

2 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:

Which is another problem altogether, with different areas of the realm having different deals, and with Retribution being unwilling (or partially unable) to change the deals, problems are to be expected. 

Also, it is very likely that Taravangian-as-Odium made these deals fully intending to sidestep them, but Taravangian-as-Retribution will now be stuck with them thanks to Honor's participation. 

[Hexagonal He/Him]

12 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Also, it is very likely that Taravangian-as-Odium made these deals fully intending to sidestep them, but Taravangian-as-Retribution will now be stuck with them thanks to Honor's participation. 

I do agree slightly, but due to the deal being made with honor's power, breaking these deals could have left T-Odium potentially open for attack. This opening could have been ignored though, as he still would have been trapped.

[Treamayne]

3 minutes ago, Hexagonal said:

I do agree slightly, but due to the deal being made with honor's power, breaking these deals could have left T-Odium potentially open for attack. This opening could have been ignored though, as he still would have been trapped.

Which is why I said "sidestepped" not broken.

"Oh, Thaylenah, sure I promised you unfettered access to the southern ports. I did not promise you a fleet. I need those boats, you can't have them"

(or something similar). 

Edited January 16, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Returned he/him]

I think that it's going to be a lot like Alethkar, ultimately. A society that has a specific, divinely mandated objective to produce the best possible soldiers for an upcoming war in the heavens. But I don't think that it's going to be all slave pits and gladiator combats. We've already seen that the Singers are very practical when it comes to their slaves, like in the period before conquering Kholinar, and I think that similar concerns will guide their new efforts. They'll need a lot of soldiers, and good ones, to wage interplanetary wars against magic-wielding, deity-backed opponents. Taravangian's aim is not to extinguish hope, and I doubt he even cares about that. He'll also have a lot of control through his ability to restrict his new light everywhere except the Shattered Plains.

I do think that the new society will be more cruel than the previous one (all the better to stoke feelings and acts of retribution), but abuse and despair probably aren't going to get the results that Taravangian demands. Additionally, I don't think that writing that way is really in Sanderson's wheelhouse (though I am confident he could do it, if he felt that was what the story demanded).

As an aside, I wouldn't call the second set of Thomas Covenant books grimdark for two reasons. At best it only describes a portion of the first book in that set (the initial return to the Land, and even then there are aliantha dotting the landscape and people have faith in the Clave, though their lives are still terrible). And, on a strictly personal level, I just hate the term. I think it's a lazy, uninspired, broadly uninformative portmanteau which at best was useful for a brief period when there was a fad of books in that mode. That shouldn't stop anyone here or anywhere from using it, I just wanted to gripe about it for a moment.

[Treamayne]

14 minutes ago, Returned said:

I think it's a lazy, uninspired, broadly uninformative portmanteau which at best was useful for a brief period when there was a fad of books in that mode. That shouldn't stop anyone here or anywhere from using it, I just wanted to gripe about it for a moment.

I don't know if you noticed this in the reference above:

3 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Wikipedia:

Quote

Whether grimdark is a genre in its own right or an unhelpful label has also been discussed. Valentine noted that while some writers have embraced the term, others see it as "a dismissive term for fantasy that's dismantling tropes, a stamp unfairly applied".

 

But, you are not alone. 

Which is why I asked the OP what they think of as the "standard definition" of the term. It is difficult to discuss a controversial term without a common starting definition. 

[Returned he/him]

36 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I don't know if you noticed this in the reference above:

4 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Wikipedia:

Quote

Whether grimdark is a genre in its own right or an unhelpful label has also been discussed. Valentine noted that while some writers have embraced the term, others see it as "a dismissive term for fantasy that's dismantling tropes, a stamp unfairly applied".

 

But, you are not alone. 

Which is why I asked the OP what they think of as the "standard definition" of the term. It is difficult to discuss a controversial term without a common starting definition. 

I did notice it. My complaint is less that the term describes nothing (I think it's obvious that it's not a genre or subgenre, but that's beside the point) and more that there are already words that describe the idea adequately. Language evolves, of course, but I think that "grimdark" is a poorly crafted word which debases English and accomplishes nothing in exchange. It's curmudgeonly, I know, and I don't dislike people who use the word (specific to the OP: I'm not angry or annoyed with you and am not trying to convince you or anyone not to use the term), I just think it's better not to. Sort of like if a writer were to end every sentence with an exclamation point-- maybe defensible in some formal or stylistic way, but why? I can't imagine it being better than not doing that.

[Ripheus23]

22 hours ago, Returned said:

I did notice it. My complaint is less that the term describes nothing (I think it's obvious that it's not a genre or subgenre, but that's beside the point) and more that there are already words that describe the idea adequately. Language evolves, of course, but I think that "grimdark" is a poorly crafted word which debases English and accomplishes nothing in exchange. It's curmudgeonly, I know, and I don't dislike people who use the word (specific to the OP: I'm not angry or annoyed with you and am not trying to convince you or anyone not to use the term), I just think it's better not to. Sort of like if a writer were to end every sentence with an exclamation point-- maybe defensible in some formal or stylistic way, but why? I can't imagine it being better than not doing that.

I guess, for the sake of this thread's question, I would have to know what Sanderson uses the word "grimdark" for, why he might apply it to a future Threnody novel, etc. Based on the description of Ambition's MTG analogy, I get a kind of "realpolitik/Ayn Rand" vibe, here, so something like, "The Threnodite protagonists will be able to solve their problem, if at all, by expressing Ambition's Intent, in self-interested/competitive behavior vs. the Evil," though making that saga actually work would be a tall order, and maybe Sanderson would instead pull a Bakker and

Spoiler

show that the Threnodites who became atrocity-mongers to defeat the Evil, were then defeated by the randomness of the evil inside themselves, like how the purported savior of the Second Apocalypse world ended up failing to defeat the No-God, despite all the immense and disturbing savagery he inflicted on his planet.

 

[Returned he/him]

2 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

I guess, for the sake of this thread's question, I would have to know what Sanderson uses the word "grimdark" for, why he might apply it to a future Threnody novel, etc. Based on the description of Ambition's MTG analogy, I get a kind of "realpolitik/Ayn Rand" vibe, here, so something like, "The Threnodite protagonists will be able to solve their problem, if at all, by expressing Ambition's Intent, in self-interested/competitive behavior vs. the Evil," though making that saga actually work would be a tall order, and maybe Sanderson would instead pull a Bakker

I totally agree with your view of the situation, and the story could well go in that direction. It would be a newer tone for Sanderson but that might be refreshing (even with such a bleak turn!). My fussiness is only about the term "grimdark", and not at all about a story that might be described that way; even if everyone were to agree that the story is whatever they felt grimdark means I would prefer (not insist upon) a different adjective/set of adjectives, that's all. I just wanted to complain about one of my pet annoyances a little bit. Notably, the citation linked from your first post may not even include the portmanteau at all (it's a transcription of something someone said, so we can't know for sure), but Sanderson didn't say it.

I wonder if we can use Mistborn as a guideline. The scenario in Final Empire and, to a lesser extent, the one in Hero of Ages had a lot of that bleakness, maybe enough to typify the entire books. I myself probably wouldn't describe the actual stories themselves as being that way (too much comic relief and hopefulness among the characters for the books' whole tone to earn the description) but definitely more in that direction than his other works. How would you rate those books in terms of what you're describing?

Edited January 17, 2025 by Returned

[Treamayne]

16 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

I guess, for the sake of this thread's question, I would have to know what Sanderson uses the word "grimdark" for, why he might apply it to a future Threnody novel, etc.

But he did not apply a GrimDark label to the Night Brigade - he merely said it will "probably be the closest you'll see from me."

Also, you still have not answered the question at the top. 

On 1/16/2025 at 7:53 AM, Treamayne said:

On 1/16/2025 at 6:56 AM, Ripheus23 said:

So is there a nonstandard definition of "grimdark" in effect

you would have to say what you consider to be the standard definition of Grimdark to be.

You mention nonstandard definition, as if there is a standard definition.

So, What definition do you take as being "Standard" GrimDark?

 

 

[Ripheus23]

5 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

But he did not apply a GrimDark label to the Night Brigade - he merely said it will "probably be the closest you'll see from me."

Also, you still have not answered the question at the top. 

You mention nonstandard definition, as if there is a standard definition.

So, What definition do you take as being "Standard" GrimDark?

 

 

I was going off an ostensive definition from "paradigmatic examples," i.e. WH40K and the Second Apocalypse books, and the claim I'd seen about the Thomas Covenant stuff. I didn't have a discursive definition in mind, so was claiming that the relative popularity/success of Bakker, Donaldson, and the WH40K showerunners was the basis for calling the ostensive definition the "standard" one.

Unfortunately, then, I didn't have a "necessary and sufficient conditions" picture in mind.

[Treamayne]

6 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

I was going off an ostensive definition from "paradigmatic examples," i.e. WH40K and the Second Apocalypse books, and the claim I'd seen about the Thomas Covenant stuff. I didn't have a discursive definition in mind, so was claiming that the relative popularity/success of Bakker, Donaldson, and the WH40K showerunners was the basis for calling the ostensive definition the "standard" one.

Unfortunately, then, I didn't have a "necessary and sufficient conditions" picture in mind.

I have read/seen none of those, so explanation by example didn't work for me (which is why I asked for clarification). However, based on that, I also posted the info from Wikipedia:

On 1/16/2025 at 7:53 AM, Treamayne said:

Grimdark is a subgenre of speculative fiction with a tone, style, or setting that is particularly dystopian, amoral, and violent.

<snip>

Whether grimdark is a genre in its own right or an unhelpful label has also been discussed. Valentine noted that while some writers have embraced the term, others see it as "a dismissive term for fantasy that's dismantling tropes, a stamp unfairly applied".

Several attempts to define the neologism grimdark have been made:

• Adam Roberts described it as fiction "where nobody is honourable and Might is Right", and as "the standard way of referring to fantasies that turn their backs on the more uplifting, Pre-Raphaelite visions of idealized medievaliana, and instead stress how nasty, brutish, short and, er, dark life back then 'really' was". But he noted that grimdark has little to do with re-imagining an actual historic reality and more with conveying the sense that our own world is a "cynical, disillusioned, ultraviolent place".
• Genevieve Valentine called grimdark a "shorthand for a subgenre of fantasy fiction that claims to trade on the psychology of those sword-toting heroes, and the dark realism behind all those kingdom politics".
• In the view of Jared Shurin, grimdark fantasy has three key components: a grim and dark tone, a sense of realism (for example, monarchs are useless and heroes are flawed), and the agency of the protagonists: whereas in high fantasy everything is predestined and the tension revolves around how the heroes defeat the Dark Lord, grimdark is "fantasy protestantism": characters have to choose between good and evil, and are "just as lost as we are".
• Liz Bourke considered grimdark's defining characteristic to be "a retreat into the valorisation of darkness for darkness's sake, into a kind of nihilism that portrays right action ... as either impossible or futile". This, according to her, has the effect of absolving the protagonists as well as the reader from moral responsibility.
• Helen Young equates grimdark to gritty fantasy, as exemplified by George R. R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series.

So, of the five examples they list - which is closest to your perceived standard?

With another possible clarification requested:

On 1/16/2025 at 7:53 AM, Treamayne said:

Would you consider something like Dungeon Crawler Carl to be GrimDark? What about Hunger Games?

 

Edited January 17, 2025 by Treamayne
Examples/SPAG

[Ripheus23]

3 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I have read/seen none of those, so explanation by example didn't work for me (which is why I asked for clarification). However, based on that, I also posted the info from Wikipedia:

So, of the five examples they list - which is closest to your perceived standard?

With another possible clarification requested:

 

I probably don't have a good feel for the concept because I haven't read most of the "usual examples." For now I'm just wondering what relevance the concept has to Threnody and the Archive. I thought that if Retribution's new system on Roshar echoed the desecration of the environment in the second Covenant trilogy, incl. creepy rituals for gaining power, then if the second Covenant trilogy was supposedly "grimdark," then I would be wrong to predict that Retribution's system will echo the one from those other books, per my interpretation of the WoB about Threnody.

Like, unfortunately, I've not read ASoIaF or the Hunger Games books.

But the definitions you've listed sound reasonable, at least as reasonable as many other attempts to define peculiar notions.

[Treamayne]

2 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

I probably don't have a good feel for the concept because I haven't read most of the "usual examples." For now I'm just wondering what relevance the concept has to Threnody and the Archive. I thought that if Retribution's new system on Roshar echoed the desecration of the environment in the second Covenant trilogy, incl. creepy rituals for gaining power, then if the second Covenant trilogy was supposedly "grimdark," then I would be wrong to predict that Retribution's system will echo the one from those other books, per my interpretation of the WoB about Threnody.

Like, unfortunately, I've not read ASoIaF or the Hunger Games books.

But the definitions you've listed sound reasonable, at least as reasonable as many other attempts to define peculiar notions.

Copy all. I avoid ASoIaF as well (and will continue to do so until the series finishes). Hunger Games I would call Dystopian SF (SciFan or Soft Sci Fi) and if you have seen the movies, then you have the better version anyway (books are not bad, but they are First person which severly limits the worldbuilding and context), but people have equated it because of the themes of trauma (all kinds). DCC is a SciFan LitRPG and a very weird blend of Dystopian, Parody Humour, and adult themes and references (various fetishes, violence, forced betrayals, etc.)

Spoiler

The apocalypse will be televised!

You know what’s worse than breaking up with your girlfriend? Being stuck with her prize-winning show cat. And you know what’s worse than that? An alien invasion, the destruction of all man-made structures on Earth, and the systematic exploitation of all the survivors for a sadistic intergalactic game show. That’s what. 
Join Coast Guard vet Carl and his ex-girlfriend’s cat, Princess Donut, as they try to survive the end of the world—or just get to the next level—in a video game–like, trap-filled fantasy dungeon. A dungeon that’s actually the set of a reality television show with countless viewers across the galaxy. Exploding goblins. Magical potions. Deadly, drug-dealing llamas. This ain’t your ordinary game show. 

Welcome, Crawler. Welcome to the Dungeon. 
Survival is optional. 
Keeping the viewers entertained is not.

As far as SA second arc is concerned, I expect it will have similar dystopian elements to Mistborn Era 1, but is unlikely to focus on the negative emotions charactistic of "darker" fantasy. 

 

[RedBlue]

I agree that people can mean many different things when they say ‘grimdark.’

To me, ‘grimdark’ is a bleak tone, disturbing subject matter, and an oppressive feeling throughout the work that the problems of the setting and characters can never be meaningfully solved.

I don’t think Sanderson will ever go near actual grimdark. It’s not his style. A threnody novel might be horror-adjacent, though, what with all the murder ghosts.

WaT ended with the heroes in a very tough spot, but the ending presented this in such a hopeful way I can’t imagine the series will end with the villains winning.

The main characters rounded off their arcs with triumphant affirmations that they have succeeded in conquering their inner demons. Kaladin resolves to look after himself and others. Shallan fully integrates her alters and realises that, despite her fears, she is not backsliding. Dalinar gets his heroic sacrifice moment and chooses to give up power. Adolin finds a way to be the big storming hero without compromising his values. Szeth reclaims his agency.

Even when Stormlight is dark, it keeps demonstrating how and why there is still hope, and people can make good choices that matter. In my opinion, that’s the opposite of grimdark.

[Isilel]

On 1/16/2025 at 2:25 PM, Hexagonal said:

I think there could definitely be grim dark in the cosmere(canticle before nomad, the night brigade, early nomads on komashi after the father machine started), but Brandon just shys away from it due to his style. Personally, WaT will likely be the most hopeless of the SA books, as it is literally a countdown to destruction.

 

To be fair, I feel that SA so far should have been quite a bit darker, but Sanderson consistently side-stepped certain implications and emotional reactions to events in a somewhat contrived manner, IMHO.

Like, we know that female slaves exist, but we never see them in Tvlakv's wagons or hear about sexual exploitation that many/most of them likely experience. The prostitutes that bridgemen frequented in WoK would have also been slaves in all probability, for example... Yes, there is a brief scene in Dalinar's flashback in OB involving Sadeas, but that's pretty much it.

Threat to and subsequent fall of Alethkar after the appearance of the Everstorm should have been absolutely devastating to most of the Shattered Plains contingent, but Sanderson wrote it as if only Kaladin and the Kholins had reasons to care, when plausibly nearly everybody should have feared for their families back home and/or their property there. Because realistically most people should have had parents, siblings, adult children, extended families, friends or even wives with minor children back home. They should have been going crazy with worry and the more privileged among them should have been besieging Dalinar with demands to do something - but in the actual story everyone was strangely and unnaturally unmoved.

There should have been a massive wave of refugees from southern Alethkar to the Shattered Plains, with all the attendant problems and darkness involved. Didn't happen.

There should have been a religious and societal meltdown caused by all of the above, as well as Dalinar's own revelations and re-appearance of the Radiants. Ditto.

In WaT itself, the allegedly devastating military losses should have been examplified by deaths of characters whom we know at least a little bit and have a reason to be sad about. Bridge 4 losing just 1(!) member out of 30 or so in the battle where the Coalition forces were allegedly bled white was ridiculous. Ditto all named characters surviving in Azir.

That is not to say that SA is or should have been hopeless, so not "grim" but it was "lightened" artificially. IMHO, YMMV.

 

 

Edited January 18, 2025 by Isilel

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 1/17/2025 at 10:35 PM, RedBlue said:

WaT ended with the heroes in a very tough spot, but the ending presented this in such a hopeful way I can’t imagine the series will end with the villains winning.

I am forced to disagree with this because it implies a dichtomy that does not exist in the Stormlight Archive. From the Parshendi perspective Wind and Truth ended reasonably well.