Cultivation's plans

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

I've been mulling this since the end of the book. Maybe I'm just too invested (haha) in Cultivation as a shard, but I think Cultivation did not just get totally caught off guard/complete loss here.

I think that Taravangian combining the Shards of both Honor and Odium was her plan. I realize she fled the system right after he did it (which was the smart thing to do to protect herself) but I don't think this was wholly unplanned or that she has totally failed in her goals.

Evidence:

Firstly, we know Cultivation's methods are to gently nudge and prune and to play the long game. Her conversations with Taravangian early in WaT explicitly state this - she talks about gradual gentle adjustments rather than direct intervention. We also see her do this kind of method with Dalinar with his boon and curse, basically nurtured growth in him over time. So we can assume her overall plan is probably also following this pattern. Additionally we know she is one of the Shards with relatively good future-sight. I mention all this to support the fact that the end of WaT is probably not endgame of her plans. She still has a piece on the board in Lift as well, for which we do not yet know the purpose, so I don't think Cultivation is done with Roshar.

Further we have some statements from Cultivation about her intervention with Taravangian. In RoW, Cultivation has this conversation about her motives after he ascends to Odium:

Quote

 "How did you dare try something like this? How did you know I’d be up to the challenge?”

“I didn’t,” she said. “I couldn’t. You were heading this direction—all I could do was hope that if you succeeded, my gift would work. That I had changed you into someone who could bear this power with honor.”

Bolding mine. Some clever foreshadowing by Brandon - with Honor indeed.

Cultivation's boon and curse with Taravangian make more sense also if she was prepping him for holding the dual-shard. The cold and rigid intelligence and the overwhelming emotion, fit as a precursor of holding the rigid and coldly rules-obsessed Honor together with the passionate Odium. She was prepping him for Retribution all along.

Finally, I personally think this would be better story-wise - hearing Cultivation is supposed to have good future-sight but then seeing one of the only things she sets up be so so wrong (without showing many instances of her being right) kind of falls flat. Having you think she was super wrong but then it turns out it was part of a bigger plan, is more fun in my opinion.

So any thoughts? Do you think Retribution could have been part of Cultivation's plans, or do you think WaT was just a total loss for her?

[Varion he/him]

Yes, I believe this is a very valid (and well articulated) interpretation of Cultivation’s plans. It’s certainly a more satisfying narrative than assuming she failed outright, which felt like a big betrayal of her capacity for long term planning. She’s a slow-burn character and I’m sure Brandon has a much bigger payoff in mind for her.

However, I do think she legitimately tried and failed to convince Taravangian to back down from his goals of conquering the Cosmere. She probably knew that it was unlikely to work, or rather, that it was a very low probability outcome, but felt that since there was a chance then she needed to at least try to talk him into a more peaceful path. She even went out of her comfort zone by threatening Taravangian’s family in a desperate bid to make him back down, and seemed genuinely shocked when he sent a tidal wave to destroy Kharbranth himself. 

(An alternative explanation for her appeals to Taravangian were that they were also designed to nudge him towards Cosmere conquest, in some sort of reverse psychology manipulation, but this seems a bit too cute and unlikely to me.)

But these appeals to Taravangian occurred before the Contest of Champions, before Dalinar was able to play whatever part she had planned for him. So while she might have hoped to persuade Taravangian towards peace, she clearly always had contingency plans in place, just like Taravangian had contingencies in place for his debate with Jasnah and Fen. 

Knowing that the most likely future outcome was that Taranvangian would decide to conquer the Cosmere, Cultivation had long put in place one or two or even more contingency plans, based on what she saw to be the most likely paths to thwart Odium’s long term goals. 

This is why I like your theory that she planned and prepared for Taravangian to take up both Odium and Honor all along. It may not have been her only plan, but it is the plan that ended up coming into fruition. 

Pushing Dalinar to seek Honor’s power and ascend seems like a necessary step in this plan, as Taravangian likely couldn’t have found the power himself.

Indeed, in hindsight, what other plans could she have had in mind for Dalinar once he ascended? Did she expect him to hold the power and attack Taravangian directly, shattering Odium? It seems unlikely, given the great cost to Roshar, and her previous counsel to Tanavast not to do this. Or did she believe in some 3rd path where Honor and Odium existed side-by-side again, in new vessels and a new equilibrium? Also unlikely given the previous balance was always doomed, and she knew Odium would continue to seek war and an escape from Roshar. And if the newly ascended Dalinar was able to clearly see that the Battle of Champions was rigged in Odium’s favor, surely Cultivation could have foreseen this also - and at least seen that Dalinar had the capacity to turn the tables.

So yes, the more I consider it, the more I agree with you that the formation of Retribution must have been one of her plans, and perhaps her main goal, if not her preferred outcome. 

Edited January 10, 2025 by Varion
Edited to include the destruction of Kharbranth

[coolsnow7]

15 hours ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

I've been mulling this since the end of the book. Maybe I'm just too invested (haha) in Cultivation as a shard, but I think Cultivation did not just get totally caught off guard/complete loss here.

I think that Taravangian combining the Shards of both Honor and Odium was her plan. I realize she fled the system right after he did it (which was the smart thing to do to protect herself) but I don't think this was wholly unplanned or that she has totally failed in her goals.

Evidence:

Firstly, we know Cultivation's methods are to gently nudge and prune and to play the long game. Her conversations with Taravangian early in WaT explicitly state this - she talks about gradual gentle adjustments rather than direct intervention. We also see her do this kind of method with Dalinar with his boon and curse, basically nurtured growth in him over time. So we can assume her overall plan is probably also following this pattern. Additionally we know she is one of the Shards with relatively good future-sight. I mention all this to support the fact that the end of WaT is probably not endgame of her plans. She still has a piece on the board in Lift as well, for which we do not yet know the purpose, so I don't think Cultivation is done with Roshar.

Further we have some statements from Cultivation about her intervention with Taravangian. In RoW, Cultivation has this conversation about her motives after he ascends to Odium:

Bolding mine. Some clever foreshadowing by Brandon - with Honor indeed.

Cultivation's boon and curse with Taravangian make more sense also if she was prepping him for holding the dual-shard. The cold and rigid intelligence and the overwhelming emotion, fit as a precursor of holding the rigid and coldly rules-obsessed Honor together with the passionate Odium. She was prepping him for Retribution all along.

Finally, I personally think this would be better story-wise - hearing Cultivation is supposed to have good future-sight but then seeing one of the only things she sets up be so so wrong (without showing many instances of her being right) kind of falls flat. Having you think she was super wrong but then it turns out it was part of a bigger plan, is more fun in my opinion.

So any thoughts? Do you think Retribution could have been part of Cultivation's plans, or do you think WaT was just a total loss for her?

The year is 2044. The Stormlight Archive has concluded. Book 6 features Cultivation viewpoints describing her struggles with her plans for Roshar backfiring. Book 7 includes dialogue between her and the Nightwatcher about how her futuresight failed her when she needed it most. Book 8 features Retribution splintering her and dismantling her power such that it can never be reclaimed. Book 9 depicts an extended discussion between Hoid, Frost, and several other Shards about how the outcome on Roshar was diametrically opposed to Cultivation’s desires and created a deep wound that Retribution easily exploited. Book 10 culminates in all of Roshar declaring that they will be the first Shard-free world, after having experienced the havoc wreaked by Cultivation’s arrogant attempts to steer them in her preferred direction - and that the people of Roshar uniting under the banner of Stagnation, dedicated to opposing the Intent of Cultivation Cosmere-wide. 

Nevertheless months later, 17thshard.com features posts like “All According to Plan: how Cultivation was planning for her own demise from day one”, wherein via a combination of conspiracy theorizing, textual numerology, and unhealthy doses of Adderall, its author concludes that Kaladin was actually the 4-way love child of Cultivation, Tanavast, Hoid, and Jerrick pre-Shattering, secreted away in a Spiritual Realm stasis bubble, endowed with the cognitive shadow of Koravelium-Avast upon her death, and will reemerge in Mistborn Era 4 to (somehow) reassemble the pieces of Cultivation and rule over the entire Cosmere for eternity. 

Edited January 10, 2025 by coolsnow7

[Varion he/him]

Why would anyone come onto a fan theory board and spend so much time constructing a mean-spirited joke about fans sharing their theories? If you disagree with the theory, explain why using evidence from the canon.

Hate to see this snide, conversation-stopping attempt at “humour“.

[TheoreticalMagic]

Here's an actual theory about why Honor and Odium combining to form Retribution could plausibly have been Cultivation's plan:

Nobody has done more evil in the cosmere than Odium. Nobody has personally harmed more people on Roshar than Odium, and now Taravangian. Cultivation herself demonstrates just how many people there are that want Retribution AGAINST Taravangian/Odium: a huge portion of the power that comprises Retribution is directly responsible for the death of the man/god/being she once loved.

Why does this matter?

Because if ANYONE from Roshar now at any point winds up in a position to be a rival for Retribution's power....to make the power itself CHOOSE between a choice of Vessels, if Taravangian's hold slips for even a second and someone else is present to be a viable successor....

The Shard of Retribution - by its very Intent - is predisposed to side with literally ANYONE over Taravangian at this point.

Because no matter how well he wields the power of Retribution....it will never come close to matching how viable a target he is FOR Retribution...in literally anyone else's hands. All that's required is a half second of getting the power to go "hey wait a second" and take a closer look at its Vessel and the things he's done, and it could be up for grabs faster than you can say "remember how hard Honor dumped Tanavast when he wasn't being Honorable?"

The Vessel is not the Shard. The Shard is not nearly as invested in being held by a particular Vessel as the Vessel is in holding on to that Shard.

I fully believe Cultivation had HOPES that Taravangian would be a better Odium than Rayse and take things in a better direction. But in case things DID go this way - and I don't think she's naive enough not to realize there was a good chance Taravangian would disappoint her, like, everything we know about Cultivation strongly paints her as a cynic - well.

There's a fatal flaw baked into Retribution's Ascension: everything Taravangian did to Ascend as Retribution makes him the biggest potential target FOR Retribution, the second any other potential Vessel can get the power to let them make a case for that.

AND the fact that Retribution is arguably more of Odium than of Honor, rather than perfectly a mix of both, given that portions of Honor split off before forming.....and considering that Odium - both when held by Rayse and by Taravangian - has more than a few moments of self-hatred.....and that before being Retribution, most of that Shard's power was doing terrible, retribution deserving things as Odium....

I think that's also a very strong recipe for Retribution not being nearly as stable as Taravangian (and others) believe it to be. I think once the power of Honor has learned various lessons as part of Retribution, such as learning the importance of personal accountability and acknowledging when you've done harm, if one truly wants to be Honorable....

Its possible, even likely, that it might not actually be that hard to separate Honor back out from Retribution, Splinter the Retribution Shard back into its component parts. Because the power of Honor, not wanting to be party to Taravangian's perpetuation of harm and recognizing its own complicity while also now having learned that sometimes Honor requires breaking bad oaths or vows or unions that no longer help but only compound harm.....would be required to act against ITSELF as part of Retribution AND the parts of Retribution that are Odium's original power. Helped along by the fact that being part of Retribution could very realistically enhance the self-hatred parts of the Odium power, due to an awareness (via Honor's proximity) that it DESERVES to be hated - and taken revenge upon - by the people its harmed. Meaning the Odium power CAN'T muster a defense against the Honor power when they're both bound up as part of Retribution. That's a very unstable precipice to balance upon, and Honor yanking its power back out of Retribution could leave Odium far weaker or more off balance than it was when Taravangian seized Honor's power....while Honor, at the moment of taking its power back from Retribution....would be more clear in Intent than its been in a LONG time.

 

Edited January 11, 2025 by TheoreticalMagic

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

On 1/10/2025 at 2:17 AM, Varion said:

However, I do think she legitimately tried and failed to convince Taravangian to back down from his goals of conquering the Cosmere. She probably knew that it was unlikely to work, or rather, that it was a very low probability outcome, but felt that since there was a chance then she needed to at least try to talk him into a more peaceful path

Yes this is exactly what I think. She seems like someone that would have plans within plans. What happened was probably not plan A but plan B or C. 

8 hours ago, TheoreticalMagic said:

The Shard of Retribution - by its very Intent - is predisposed to side with literally ANYONE over Taravangian at this point.

That's an interesting idea. I also had the thought that Retribution could change/ develop over time into Justice - or maybe after adding another shard to it or with a different vessel. 

I also totally admit the end of book 5 could just be a big loss for Cultivation, but I do think she still has some bigger plan for later with Lift and maybe Nightblood - she has touched both of them and that combination of infinite Lifelight to fuel Nightblood seems like a Chekov's gun for later. 

[MagicMaggot]

17 minutes ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

She seems like someone that would have plans within plans.

Just curious, do you know what gave you that impression? I personally got more of a wily nature spirit vibe that does what feels right in the moment... while what feels right is informed by a good grasp of the future and fortune. 

It might come down to the same thing, and I'll certainly agree that there'll be a lot of the things she left on Roshar that will make a difference, and which in hindsight might seem like parts of a plan, if they work. But character-wise I don't really see her going through all the computations and deliberately creating extensive plans and contingencies to a larger degree, though I couldn't really argue for it, considering we haven't had her pov.

 

 

Considering leftover projects I kind of want there to be more between her and Sja-anat, considering Sja and her children were essential parts in getting both Taravangian and Dalinar to godhood, while shielding these plans from Odium's predictions. And since Sja-anat should have been out there all these millenia, and is definitely willing to play all angles, there really should be some form of cooperation here. Or maybe even a direct alliance, since they do seem suited to each other.

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

3 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:

Just curious, do you know what gave you that impression? I personally got more of a wily nature spirit vibe that does what feels right in the moment... while what feels right is informed by a good grasp of the future and fortune. 

It might come down to the same thing, and I'll certainly agree that there'll be a lot of the things she left on Roshar that will make a difference, and which in hindsight might seem like parts of a plan, if they work. But character-wise I don't really see her going through all the computations and deliberately creating extensive plans and contingencies to a larger degree, though I couldn't really argue for it, considering we haven't had her pov.

 

I think of her like this god-as-a gardener idea. We know from some of the various Shard POVs that we've gotten that Shardic futuresight seems to be a view of likely possibilities or paths. Cultivation is then pruning and nurturing towards various options for long term goals. But I think she'd be cultivating a couple options at once, like leaving a few main stems on your tomato plant vs going all in on one.

I think the place this really comes through is her convo with Odium in WaT interlude:

Quote

“What do we do instead?” Cultivation said.

“You want me to say,” he whispered, “that we create systems—teachings, incentives—that encourage the right decisions. That we prevent war by building up societies where people choose peace. We prevent greed by nurturing governments where the greedy are held accountable. We take time, and we steer, but we do not dominate.”

“Yes.”

I also think the moment in Kharbranth showing she has placed assassins, as well as just the fact of her having Dalinar already ready for her to nudge toward the Honor shard rather than just Taravangian Odium plan, shows she keeps contingency plans or grows multiple options for herself. 

Not necessarily cool/ calculating/ computational,  but almost compulsively growing multiple options for herself at all times. 

[MagicMaggot]

3 minutes ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

Not necessarily cool/ calculating/ computational,  but almost compulsively growing multiple options for herself at all times. 

Oh, ok, I agree with that. I was thinking more of... well Diagram-style stuff.

[Nitpicking]

5 hours ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

I also think the moment in Kharbranth showing she has placed assassins ...

Did you notice Taravangian copying her idea for Thaylenah?

[Master Silver]

I think Cultivation's plan A was for Taravangian to do better than Rayes. When he chose the same path, plan B was to hold his family hostage. When that failed, plan C was for Dalinar to take up Honor and either continue the battle that Tanavast had waged or better yet, Kill the Vessel of Odium, take up Odium and become the Shard of Justice. Divine Retribution and Divine Justice are close but not identical. I think the Vessel of Honor taking up Odium after winning to tame the power would be the best choice. It would have maybe destroyed Roshar, but Hoid at the very least would have said that would have been worth it to end Odium.

[coolsnow7]

On 1/11/2025 at 4:48 AM, Varion said:

Why would anyone come onto a fan theory board and spend so much time constructing a mean-spirited joke about fans sharing their theories? If you disagree with the theory, explain why using evidence from the canon.

Hate to see this snide, conversation-stopping attempt at “humour“.

Well since you asked: of course there are more than a few whacky theories in this forum, and that’s part of the function of the forum: for people to take long-shot guesses at what the future holds. But I hold a certain set of theories that are unfalsifiable in contempt. The two versions that come to mind (and that I’ve made fun of this way) are a) Stormfaker and b) “Cultivation was the puppet master all along!” The reason is because, well, they’re unfalsifiable: the evidence can be clear as day that, for example, Cultivation is muddling through godhood the same way the other gods are. And yet, there’s always some combination of future sight, assuming motivations that just happen to align perfectly with the outcomes, and the fact that her Intent is effectively to be puppetmaster that a reader can cobble together to speculate “well what if it was always her plan?”

Brandon has already made it clear that a) Cultivation’s reach exceeds her grasp in the planning department b) she’s realized a whole bunch of unintended consequences already c) that no one could anticipate the outcome of WaT d) that futuresight is irrelevant to inter-Shard activity. And yet this wholly unappealing possibility, that the entire Stormlight Archive is just one giant Deus Ex Machina on the part of Cultivation, just won’t die - because it can’t be disproven! There’s always “what if her futuresight is actually so good that she could plan it all anyway?” 
 

Let’s dwell on (a) for a second. Every revelation of the origin and nature of the Vessels that we’ve seen has been underwhelming. It’s to the point that it’s clear that this will be a major theme of the Cosmere, as it already is with the Heralds in Stormlight: how behind the curtain of religious myth - even or especially when all the myths turn out to be true! - the divine persons involved are just… people. They make mistakes, they scramble to fix them, they get caught off guard, their arrogance leads them into trouble, they get in over their heads, and they wind up dead despite being immortal. And yet some people want to read this as foreshadowing that Cultivation is actually just an omniscient, omnibenevolent mastermind all along! Are we reading the same book?

So yes, because actual arguments don’t work - indeed can’t work - to rebut “what if actually Cultivation is a secret mastermind puppeteer”, I will mock these theories. Not least because, contra you, mockery is ultimately harmless and probably won’t even succeed in shutting down this set of theories, much less discouraging this kind of speculation broadly.

[BinarySecond]

I think the existence of Baxil in his current state lends credance to the fact that Cultivation at least expected this as a possible outcome.

 

An unsee-able entity unless you know to look for it? The perfect spy for Cultivation.

[Ripheus23]

10 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

Well since you asked: of course there are more than a few whacky theories in this forum, and that’s part of the function of the forum: for people to take long-shot guesses at what the future holds. But I hold a certain set of theories that are unfalsifiable in contempt. ... I will mock these theories. Not least because, contra you, mockery is ultimately harmless and probably won’t even succeed in shutting down this set of theories, much less discouraging this kind of speculation broadly.

The year is 2072. Sanderson has finally finished MBE7 with the help of time-dilation technology that allows him to write more books than it was thought he'd be able to. He has altered his intended plotlines so many times in so many ways, thrown out so many red herrings and retconned so many alleged or plain inconsistencies, that both every theory and no theory about the cosmere has some evidence for it, in some sense or other, by now. He has even changed his mind about time travel, believing himself to have found a way to write plausible time-travel shenanigans.

But there are those on the 17th Shard who still think that theories about the cosmere are to be judged the way scientific theories are, as absolutely "falsifiable by evidence," even when the evidence base can mutate unexpectedly, when the number of planned books can keep ballooning indefinitely, or contracting (except with the dilation tech, of course, Sanderson found time to write every book he ever wanted to, and then some), even when the very scale of the cosmere itself has changed again and again, from a possible multiverse to a small galaxy to a small star cluster, back to a whole galaxy and then a confirmed multiverse created by enough people in the cosmere believing in other universes.

More seriously, though, the fact that the content of any series of books by a living author can be revised ex post facto, and that in the decades it will take for such content to be finalized in the endgame of a series the author might change their mind about various things, does kind of testify against taking crackpot theorizing too seriously, from either a supportive or a critical angle. For example, we might find out that Koravellium Avast herself is not much of a long-term schemer, all things considered, but that her Shard has been developing its own mind and did have elaborate conspiracies in play all along, etc.

EDIT: and Kor's Shard having its own feelings/goals here would be like Tanner's having such, but in Magic: The Gathering it's not about playing a totally new card every time, it's more about the order you play your cards in. And card games are notorious for having practically unrepeatable hands that can be dealt, and series-of-moves-played (aren't there something like 52! ways to arrange the Hoyle-style deck?).

Edited January 14, 2025 by Ripheus23

[Treamayne]

Personally, I don't think Cultivation's real plan cared one way or another about Dalinar or Taravangian. We saw in Ch 100 and 120 that Kor did not want to be on Roshar, and she chaffed at being bound to the planet as much as Odium did (toss up as to which might want to leave more). Kor did not want to be a god, she did not want worship and, both Kor and Cultivation did not want to stagnate on one planet.

I think Kor's plan A was to escape Roshar, by any means possible

1. If Taravangian has been a better vessel and ended the war, she could leave
2. If Dalinar Ascended and ended the war, she could leave. 
3. If Odium "won" she could leave
4. If Tarvangian claimed both Shards, she could leave. 

It just happens that number four is what happened. 

Spoiler

Ch 100:

Quote

“TANAVAST,” SHE SAID, “WE WERE GOING TO FIND A PLACE UNINHABITED.”

<snip>

“I LEFT MY PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY WANTED ME TO TAKE PRAYERS,” SHE SAID. “I CAN HOLD THIS POWER, BECAUSE SOMEONE MUST. BUT I HAVE NO DESIRE TO BE WORSHIPPED, TANAVAST. LET US FIND ANOTHER WORLD WHERE WE CAN EXPERIMENT WITH CREATIONS THAT WILL BE PART OF US, NOT REMNANTS OF THE BEING WE … WE BETRAYED.”

Ch 120:

Quote

THE POWER THAT RAYSE HELD LOATHED BEING TRAPPED. I KNEW THAT THE POWER INSIDE KOR FELT SIMILARLY. IT HATED STAGNANCY.

 

 

10 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

a) Cultivation’s reach exceeds her grasp in the planning department b) she’s realized a whole bunch of unintended consequences already c) that no one could anticipate the outcome of WaT d) that futuresight is irrelevant to inter-Shard activity.

Do you happen to have any sources for these assertions? Because, by my understanding:

1. There is no WoB about this that I can find
2. Not even sure what you may be referring to here
3. Except for the people on this forum. Sure no one person predicted every reveal in Day 10, but nearly ever reveal in Day 10 was postulated by somebody (for example, I was expecting and hoping for Odium to be freed from Roshar back in Oathbringer when the Letters were epigraphs).
   • Unless you mean in-world. 
4. This is already proven false - there's an entire Trilogy (Mistborn Era 1) that is essentially showing how Preservation, through Futuresight and planning, out manuevered Ruin through a combination of Thanatos Gambit and Batman Gambit. 

I'm not saying don't voice your opinions, but I am asking you to find a less Odius method of doing so. Please. 
Alternatively, you can do what I do - simply refuse to open or read threads about things that hit your personal hot-buttons (for me - preview material, Vs. threads, and fake postulants on MoIs we still do not have information on - much less enough information to theorize other applications of that MoI). 

As Szeth might say - please Add, don't Subtract.

Edited January 14, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[TheoreticalMagic]

Just want to say it was "and the unhealthy doses of Adderall" bit that made me go yikes and soured me personally, because as someone who's neurodivergent as hell in ways that present as alternatingly pedantic and over-excited essays when theorizing about a hyper-fixation, like....I know I'm not super keen about someone making assumptions about my self-medication habits based on me just being me and having harmless fun that's very easy to opt-out of if you don't want to participate in a conversation in the spirit in which it was raised. Not that I'm assuming that was about me or any of my posts, I'm just saying in general, that felt extremely unnecessary when it costs zero cents to just be like "tbh I just think Cultivation sucks at chess, probably."

[MagicMaggot]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

I think Kor's plan A was to escape Roshar, by any means possible

So why wasn't plan A just do manipulate Dalinar into freeing her? Or even just asking/trading for it. A mortal who was already very much in her sphere of influence had the power to negociate for it. And he didn't really have much reason to antagonize her. Even if freeing her meant freeing Odium, he might well have been convinced, if someone other than Wit told him how the cosmere situation actually was, and what not freeing Odium would look like. 

If that was her main goal, I can't say what she did seems more genius to me than if she just blundered around...

 

Edited January 14, 2025 by MagicMaggot

[Treamayne]

26 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:

So why wasn't plan A just do manipulate Dalinar into freeing her? Or even just asking/trading for it. A mortal who was already very much in her sphere of influence had the power to negociate for it. And he didn't really have much reason to antagonize her. Even if freeing her meant freeing Odium, he might well have been convinced, if someone other than Wit told him how the cosmere situation actually was, and what not freeing Odium would look like. 

If that was her main goal, I can't say what she did seems more genius to me than if she just blundered around...

I'm sorry, I did not mean to imply she was a genius. 

Cultivation was not bound the same way the Odium was bound - that was only one layer holding her to Roshar:

Spoiler

However, when a Shard Invests its power in a world, its Cognitive and Physical Aspects are bound to it and will have difficulty leaving the system it is in.

Quote

Questioner

When one of the shards, like Odium, move from world to world in the cosmere, does their presence, like the metals they leave behind and their magic, leave with them?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium never really settled on a planet.  He is now settled on Roshar and his magic has permeated things.  Leaving would be very difficult for him. It would either involve leaving behind some of his power or ripping that out, which would be a difficult process.  So yes it is very tough to leave.

Phoenix Comicon 2013 (May 24, 2013)

 

So, beside the events of Ch 113, Cultivation was already bound to Roshar through having her power Invested in the Physical and Cognitive of Roshar. So I may have been hasty in my prior assessment - She might not have been able to leave is Taravangian had ended the War by being a better vessel - that may have only been a step toward being able to separate the power she had invested to remain behind, allowing her to move on. 

[RedBlue]

From WaT epilogue (emphasis mine):

Quote

How did he see? Hoid thought, standing up. How did Dalinar find the way out? This hadn’t been one of the many more obvious possibilities. It had been a small, insignificant one—as likely as flipping a coin onto the same side a thousand times in a row. None of them had seen it, because when possibilities were infinite, you could get a tad overwhelmed.

This is Hoid’s perspective, so there’s always the possibility that he’s just wrong and underestimated how flawless Cultivation’s future sight is. Hoid has never held a Shard, so maybe his intuition is off because he doesn’t ’get it.’

But if Hoid is right, Retribution was not predicted by anyone with future sight — including Cultivation — because it was one of a vast number of deeply unlikely outcomes. Everyone disregarded it.

Which would mean that Cultivation did not plan this specific outcome. She might be satisfied with the result. She certainly nudged the pieces into place by helping Taravangian and Dalinar both Ascend. But, in my opinion, that’s like when you panic-mash buttons in a video game and somehow beat the final boss. It is ‘winning,’ but there’s a lot of luck mixed in with the skill.

[Darth_Hel]

I think that could go both ways like you mention briefly in that first part. Maybe Cultivation’s plan and nudges were good enough to hit that very rare sweet spot. 

it’s also possible that this was her plan, but she nearly failed anyway. It required the intervention of whatever/whoever Nohadon is to make it come together. She planned to have Dalinar do what he did, yet he didn’t see that option until Nohadon stepped in and fixed it. She could be both an excellent planner and not perfect.

 

 

[MagicMaggot]

12 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I'm sorry, I did not mean to imply she was a genius. 

Cultivation was not bound the same way the Odium was bound - that was only one layer holding her to Roshar:

  Reveal hidden contents

However, when a Shard Invests its power in a world, its Cognitive and Physical Aspects are bound to it and will have difficulty leaving the system it is in.

Quote

Questioner

When one of the shards, like Odium, move from world to world in the cosmere, does their presence, like the metals they leave behind and their magic, leave with them?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium never really settled on a planet.  He is now settled on Roshar and his magic has permeated things.  Leaving would be very difficult for him. It would either involve leaving behind some of his power or ripping that out, which would be a difficult process.  So yes it is very tough to leave.

Phoenix Comicon 2013 (May 24, 2013)

 

So, beside the events of Ch 113, Cultivation was already bound to Roshar through having her power Invested in the Physical and Cognitive of Roshar. So I may have been hasty in my prior assessment - She might not have been able to leave is Taravangian had ended the War by being a better vessel - that may have only been a step toward being able to separate the power she had invested to remain behind, allowing her to move on. 

Ah, ok, that helps a bit, but now I don't understand how the contest plays into that. The actual result of the contest made her divest from Roshar rather forcefully, leaving all she had invested behind. So she could do it, if there wasn't the oath between the gods holding her back. If she was willing to pay the price. She probably could have mitigated that price, if she didn't have to retreat so hastily, but either party winning the contest wouldn't have loosened her binding, so it wouldn't have helped, or a I missing something?

[Darth_Hel]

2 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:

Ah, ok, that helps a bit, but now I don't understand how the contest plays into that. The actual result of the contest made her divest from Roshar rather forcefully, leaving all she had invested behind. So she could do it, if there wasn't the oath between the gods holding her back. If she was willing to pay the price. She probably could have mitigated that price, if she didn't have to retreat so hastily, but either party winning the contest wouldn't have loosened her binding, so it wouldn't have helped, or a I missing something?

I wonder if she’s weaker from having to rapidly divest like this. Weak enough that Odium on his own could kill her. So, she’d require Odium to be distracted by other things to make an escape.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

After WaT, I've decided that the way that Odium/Todium and Honor were portrayed as planning for the future, with their future-sight, is not the same way Cultivation plans. Toduium explicitly talks to himself about how "nearly all the possibilities agree" with whatever outcome he was going for. Taravangian is in love with his own plans, and even moreso as a shard vessel. Even in the Diagram, he didn't explicitly plan for contingencies. He let groups of people try whatever they could, but after a cut-off point, declared there was only one way forward, his plan (which in that case was murder Dalinar, and that worked out about as well as his plans for Dalinar as Honor's vessel). He makes a plan, and then when wrong, decides a knew plan..almost as if he is afraid to admit fault (that's probably not it, but wouldn't surprise me if it was). I'm not saying that's true, but Taravangian is rocking multiple unhealthy mental tendencies that could be improved with 12-97 sessions of therapy per week.

Honor was quite similar. Locked him into an agreement of champions, do that, try to win. It's the only way.

Cultivation seems (to me) to make plans for the future like roots growing. They don't always follow the most predictable path, they branch and split, sometimes they grow around an obstacle, and sometimes they grow straight through it. Cultivation strikes me as someone who plans for the most likely path, the least likely path, and everywhere in between. Todium becoming Tetribution probably wasn't Plan A...it probably wasn't Plan Z either, but Cultivation being ready to bolt doesn't strike me as panic, so much as- "Ok, this is the reality that is now, which means I need to leave and do the following..."

So I feel that the OP is right and wrong. Right in that this isn't a total loss and/or surprise for Cultivation, but also that this isn't a victory for her either. Unless I'm missing something, she did NOT want Tetribution to come into being, but she was aware that it was a distinct possibility, especially with her direct involvement with Dalinar. Cultivation also did NOT want Roshar to be broken and/or destroyed. There's Nothing to cultivate if the planet is a lifeless husk. She set Dalinar on the path to Honor herself, circumventing wishes of the Cognitive Shadow of her former lover. Nobody is going to convince me that she wasn't fully aware that Dalinar was capable of choosing what he did. I don't know that I'd say it was what she wanted, but I will say with confidence that she was well prepared for it.

[Isilel]

2 hours ago, RedBlue said:

But if Hoid is right, Retribution was not predicted by anyone with future sight — including Cultivation — because it was one of a vast number of deeply unlikely outcomes.

 

Honor, whose future sight wasn't great by Shardic standards, foresaw the Night of Sorrows, which is the result of Retribution. He mentions it in one of Dalinar's visions. He just failed to notice any positive opportunities that it might offer and thus perceived  it as something to avoid at all costs. Given Cultivation's superior future sight and her Intent's inclination towards planning, it would feel contrived indeed if she didn't. Also, Lift comes across as a contingency targeted at exactly such possibility. Additionally, Cultivation had an excellent reason to closely look at all the futures including Taravangian specifically, as well as Dalinar, so she was in the better position to glimpse unlikely outcomes involving him than anyone else. 

[RedBlue]

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

Honor, whose future sight wasn't great by Shardic standards, foresaw the Night of Sorrows, which is the result of Retribution. He mentions it in one of Dalinar's visions.

Do you have a chapter reference (or rough idea where this happened) so I can reread this bit?