Raven Wilder Posted January 4, 2025 Posted January 4, 2025 Retribution's plan is to turn Roshar into an army that can be used to conquer the cosmere. But it's an army where the average foot soldier still fights with sword and spear and has no faster means of transportation than a horse or a ship with sails. Seems like introducing guns and automobiles and other technological advancements would be an important step in making them war ready. That neither Odium or Honor did this during previous Desolations, I chalked up to being one of the limits the two Shards agreed to. But now that such agreements are null and void, is there anything stopping Retribution from dropping a whole bunch of tech knowledge on their subjects? 2
alder24 Posted January 5, 2025 Posted January 5, 2025 14 hours ago, Raven Wilder said: Retribution's plan is to turn Roshar into an army that can be used to conquer the cosmere. But it's an army where the average foot soldier still fights with sword and spear and has no faster means of transportation than a horse or a ship with sails. Seems like introducing guns and automobiles and other technological advancements would be an important step in making them war ready. That neither Odium or Honor did this during previous Desolations, I chalked up to being one of the limits the two Shards agreed to. But now that such agreements are null and void, is there anything stopping Retribution from dropping a whole bunch of tech knowledge on their subjects? He can do it, but it's not as easy as just dropping guns into their hands. Autonomy was feeding the Set with advanced technology, was pushing them to develop rocketry and Telsin as her Avatar was capable of seeing it, but she could not understand how rockets were working. To properly develop new technology, even with Shardic help, you need experimentation, repetitions and time to learn both the basics and advance details of your creation. Shard can't just dump all of that into your mind as you simply won't be able to understand it. The same applies to Honor and Odium during Desolations. Sure, with their future sight abilities and expanded mind they knew about how technology could progress in the future, but Desolations were wars fought to the very last man standing, wars of attrition on an unimaginable scale, wars which sole intent was to break the people. People were fighting for survival, they had no time to experiment with new technology, when every Desolation was killing a vast majority of their population, which includes intelligent people (during Nohadon's Desolation 9/10 Alethi were killed and Yelig-Nar specifically targeted his scribes - the intelligent people). There was no way for them to play with tech when every time Heralds Returned, they found people thrown back to the stone age. The arms race that Odium and Honor started eventually led to the destruction of knowledge, not increase of it. While Retribution can grant people knowledge and technology, it also needs to give them time to adapt to it, understand it and develop it on their own. Without this it would be like giving a caveman a gun - sure he can learn to use it, but he will never be able to recreate it. However, there is another aspect to this problem that makes Shards reluctant to grant technology to their people - ironically it stifles innovation. On planets like Scadrial and Taldain where Shards lead the technological progression of their people at some times, when Shards retreated people were left in a technological stagnation with little to no progress being made. They struggle to invent, solve problems and create new technology because they didn't need to as all they knew was the cozy feeling of their Shard handling them new fancy tech and solving problems for them. So while giving tech by Shards can achieve a quick technological development in the short term, in the long term it ends up in total stagnation and it's generally a bad idea - something that Taravangian admitted in WaT. TLM ch 67: Quote “Autonomy wanted to figure them out,” Telsin said. “Turns out advanced ballistics and self-propelled rocketry proved a little beyond our grasp. Curiously, with this power I can … see hints of what is to come. But the mechanisms? Well, that takes experimentation, learning, iteration…” SoS ch 7: Quote Already I fear that I have made things too easy for men. This city, the perfect climate, the ground that renews … You were to have had the radio a century ago, but you didn’t need it, so you didn’t strive for it. You ignore aviation, and cannot tame the wilds because you don’t care to study proper irrigation or fertilization. “The … radio? What is that?” You don’t explore, Harmony continued, ignoring Wax’s confusion. Why would you? You have everything you want here. You’ve barely progressed technologically from what I gave you in the books. Yet others, who were nearly destroyed … I made a mistake with you, I now see. I still make many. Does that ruin your faith, Waxillium? Does it worry you that your God is fallible? WaT I-2: Quote “So I change the systems,” he said. “I strike down the warlords who hoard resources! I force them to share, to not hurt one another. I make pain impossible.” “And in so doing…” “I create a country where there are no consequences. Is that so bad?” “You tell me,” she said in her infuriatingly calm way. Yes, it would be bad. He could see all the permutations of time, as well as attempts by other Shards like himself to do this very thing. By directly intervening on such a granular level, he risked creating a society where no one learned, and where civilization did not progress. By supernaturally forbidding warlords, he would also stifle scientists and artists. By removing the capacity for violence, he would also remove the capacity for mercy. 7
DSCrankshaw Posted January 6, 2025 Posted January 6, 2025 It's not just experimentation either. If you want to manufacture guns, tanks, and planes, you need an industrial base, so that you can get all the components you need, in standardized units, or the machines you need to make those components, without having to make each piece by hand. Right now, in the real world, every country in the world has access to the knowledge of modern technology. Not every country has the industrial base needed to operate a factory without importing components and machinery. (Even those that theoretically could, do not do so.) The industrial revolution takes decades, and Roshar has lost at least 60 years. 1
Treamayne Posted January 6, 2025 Posted January 6, 2025 Don't forget the best Shardic one-liner ever: Quote You were to have had the radio a century ago, but you didn’t need it, so you didn’t strive for it. From SoS Ch 7 - Full excerpt: Spoiler “Murderers are needed,” Wax said flatly. Yes. No. The potential for murderers is needed. Waxillium, I—the personality you speak to—agree with your indignation. But the powers that I am, the essence of my self, cannot allow me to take sides. Already I fear that I have made things too easy for men. This city, the perfect climate, the ground that renews … You were to have had the radio a century ago, but you didn’t need it, so you didn’t strive for it. You ignore aviation, and cannot tame the wilds because you don’t care to study proper irrigation or fertilization. “The … radio? What is that?” You don’t explore, Harmony continued, ignoring Wax’s confusion. Why would you? You have everything you want here. You’ve barely progressed technologically from what I gave you in the books. Yet others, who were nearly destroyed … I made a mistake with you, I now see. I still make many. Does that ruin your faith, Waxillium? Does it worry you that your God is fallible? “You never claimed to be infallible, so far as I remember.” No. I did not. It's the old saying - "You can lead a Ryshadium to water. . . " 1
earthexile Posted January 7, 2025 Posted January 7, 2025 I can't help but think Rosharan Space Age warfare is going to lean heavily into the 'magical,' if that term applies when everything on every side is Investiture-based. Less flying in spacecraft, more stepping directly from world to world by portals and such. Fused and Radiants have the weapons, armor, and Surges to remain significant on the battlefield even when the tanks and machine guns start showing up. Have fun holding a battleship together in the void of space against a pack of Skybreakers, right? I suppose I can imagine Rosharan troops being issued Investiture-powered infantry weapons, and we've already seen the beginning of flying vehicles. I suspect though that Retribution will prefer a campaign of sudden, overwhelming force at critical positions, rather than trying to fully occupy multiple worlds.
BinarySecond Posted January 7, 2025 Posted January 7, 2025 (edited) Preview chapter spoiler, for Isles of Emberdark: Spoiler As this is the Cosmere spoiler zone I think I'm ok mentioning that in the Isles of the Emberdark we see a Knight Radiant who summons a Shardgun with somekind of Investiture powerpack attached. Whether or not that is Retribution induced or not I cannot say. The power of a Knight Radiant is pretty horrifying to most enemies though. These guys can fly, disintegrate things, create illusions, turn rock into putty. Oh they also have near impenetrable armour and shape changing weapons that can cut through anything (par Aluminium) I don't think advanced technology is necessary in the war but it's going to happen regardless. I think it will come the same way it happened for us; innovation and mimicry rather than divine providence. Edited January 7, 2025 by BinarySecond Addition of spoiler tag 1
Treamayne Posted January 7, 2025 Posted January 7, 2025 1 hour ago, BinarySecond said: As this is the Cosmere spoiler zone I think I'm ok mentioning No, that is not okay to mention. It requires a Spoiler Tag. This is the Spoiler Zone for Wind and Truth (WaT) - every New release/Preview has separate sections because there is nothing inherent in the idea that somebody who has read one will have read the other. Please spoiler tag your post. More info in the Sharder FAQ - Spoiler Policy - IED Spoiler Area 2
BinarySecond Posted January 7, 2025 Posted January 7, 2025 2 hours ago, Treamayne said: No, that is not okay to mention. It requires a Spoiler Tag. This is the Spoiler Zone for Wind and Truth (WaT) - every New release/Preview has separate sections because there is nothing inherent in the idea that somebody who has read one will have read the other. Please spoiler tag your post. More info in the Sharder FAQ - Spoiler Policy - IED Spoiler Area Sorted it, apologies for the misunderstanding of the spoiler boundaries. 2
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