Cultivation planned Retribution

[Paint Bard]

I only read/listened to Wind and Truth once, but early In the book it is mentioned that war would serve cultivation because cultivation is all about change. 

I think She has her tendrils in a lot more than we know about.  three different point of views knowing that she left the system sounds fishy to me. she has been so secretive up till now, and no one actually knew where she was in the first place. 

 Maybe she knew she had to make the other shards help? 

I was also thinking that maybe she is the big bad and was insidious in making sure the shards got combined. 

Thoughts? 

[Nitpicking]

There's definitely something going on in Cultivation's plan that we don't know about yet. We still don't know why she created Lift, for one thing.

[Leuthie]

I have to disagree here. Cultivation fled because Retribution would have destroyed everything related to her if she stayed. She was responsible for him having to destroy Kharbranth, after all.

She rolled the dice on Taravangian and it came up craps. His viewpoints were meant to show him vacillating between becoming what Cultivation wanted and becoming worse than Rayse. 

[Use the Falchion]

I think what we see of her reactions at the end disproves that point. Yes, Cultivation's all about change, but she also wanted to change Odium and what his ultimate goal was. She didn't expect Taravangian to become Retribution, or for Dalinar to give up Honor. 

As for creating Lift, I do think she planned for the Stormfather's death, but given that she has the whole "I just plant seeds and see where things go" mentality, it's probably more of "Hmm, let's create this interesting Radiant in the event things go wrong," rather than any super-complex plan. 

[MagicMaggot]

She is still alive, and she still has cards on the table that can make a difference. But if everything that happened with Taravangian, Dalinar, and their shards was part of her masterplan, it better be a really, really, really good one, because as far as we can see right now she risked a lot and lost a lot. 

For me it makes the most sense that she just cultivated people because that is her power's thing, and had only vague plans of how they might be used in the future, which led to catastrophe, when she found people who actually would become viable vessels. But that would be kind of disappointing, since that does make her kind of a bumbling idiot that utterly destroyed Roshar's status quo by pure accident. Considering how much we were teased about her moving in the shadows, and how she had a better grasp of the future than most shards... well, it would be really nice, if there was anything behind that besides hot air.

But looking at the figurative map right now I really have no idea where her plan could be going here. If there is one.

Edited December 26, 2024 by MagicMaggot

[Ookla the Invariably Tired]

7 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

 

I think what we see of her reactions at the end disproves that point. Yes, Cultivation's all about change, but she also wanted to change Odium and what his ultimate goal was. She didn't expect Taravangian to become Retribution, or for Dalinar to give up Honor. 

 

I agree in part. She is about change but more exactly she is about progression, positive change. Long lasting war doesn’t serve her or the power of Cultivation.

I want to think that she had a plan with Dalinar. Her intervention in his life led to him refusing Odium in OB, and also gave him the confidence and the wisdom, in part, to make the gamble he did at the end of WaT.

I can imagine her making the same realization Dalinar did: neither she nor honor could beat him without destroying Roshar, and humans could never pin Todium into a situation where he could lose. I personally think that Rayse would have made enough mistakes to allow this, or at least where the humans had a thousand years to plan.

What I personally don’t understand is why she put Taravangian into a position where he could ascend. He seems to be the only person capable of ruining everything. The only explanation I can see is that Taravangian wanted to be right so badly, he would make the barely perceptible mistake of taking enough power that the other shards would finally need to deal with him. However, that was a gamble, and it would have been easier to keep Rayse in the position he was, and allow Dalinar and Wit to deal with Odium as he was.

I don’t know. Koravellum Avast, as we know, was human. Or something like it. She made mistakes, just like Rayse, Tanavast, or Taravangian. Even with all her fortune and foresight, she couldn’t make a perfect plan. However, hers seems to be particularly flawed. 

[Leuthie]

There was no perfect plan. Every attempt by Honor to make deals made the situation with Odium worse. Cultivation's gambit was for Taravangian to use the extreme emotional intelligence she gifted him with to better direct Odium. There were possible futures where this worked, so she gave it a shot. One of the futures where it didn't work happened.

However, Odium is no longer just Roshar's problem now. The Cosmere has to take notice. She ran because she was in direct danger if she stayed. She didn't run because she was giving up. She'll be in the back 5 books. No doubt in my mind.

[Isilel]

Cultivation's power wanted to leave Roshar as badly as Odium's did. So, was her finally being in position to run really a setback? Don't all the epigraphs about the wisdom of walking away equally apply to her? 

She left behind enough of her power to  affect things. Her spren, the Sibling, Lift, Taln and very likely an Avatar in the Nightwatcher. Wasn't there a WoB that the Nightwatcher is to Cultivation what the Stormfather was to Honor? And didn't we learn in WaT that SF has always been his Avatar? 

 

[MagicMaggot]

11 hours ago, Isilel said:

Cultivation's power wanted to leave Roshar as badly as Odium's did. So, was her finally being in position to run really a setback?

Considering Retribution's emergence that forced her to cut ties to Roshar as quickly as possible was basically the most destructive way of getting free? Probably, yes. If she wanted to be free, she only needed to manipulate Dalinar into granting her freedom. If he could grant it to Odium, he could grant it to her, and he wasn't exactly hard for her to lead around. Heck, going into the spiritual realm on her sayso was basically enough already, because it would have been his forfeit in the contest, if she arranged for him not to be back in time. Just getting free was never the plan here. And what she had left on Roshar was never in more danger than after Retributions emergence, so she certainly wasn't doing anything to safe them here. Which means that either Retribution is part of her 10D-chess masterplan, or she failed spectacularly. 

Either losing for a time was part of a long-term winning strategy, or she just lost. 

[Nitpicking]

On 12/26/2024 at 7:29 PM, Thalydon said:

I don’t know. Koravellum Avast, as we know, was human. Or something like it. She made mistakes, just like Rayse, Tanavast, or Taravangian. Even with all her fortune and foresight, she couldn’t make a perfect plan. However, hers seems to be particularly flawed. 

Actually, she was a dragon. All dragons can take human form, but she was a dragon.

[Ookla the Invariably Tired]

2 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Actually, she was a dragon. All dragons can take human form, but she was a dragon.

True

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

"That I had changed you into someone who could bear this power with honor" I take this line from RoW literally, especially after the events of WaT.  I do believe that her plan all along was to facilitate a consolidation of Honor/Odium.  I also believe she will give up her Shard at some point, although not sure why or how.

[Leuthie]

I forget that she never wanted to be on Roshar in the first place. She was there because Tanavast convinced her to be there. With Tanavast completely dead and Honor in Taravangian's hands, she has no reason to stay.

I was speaking of Koravellum Avast there. The power of Cultivation is going to want to stay in the game since the bulk of its "Cultivating" is on Roshar.

It also seems like Kora herself isn't the type to fully bounce from so many things she loves so quickly. Nor is she the type to spend so much time in a place and not end up with things she loves. She'll be back for the back half.

As for her plan: Dalinar taking up Honor or giving up Honor to temper Odium are both good outcomes. I believe she's satisfied with the current situation, but wishes Taravangian turned out better.

[truthgazer]

Kor I think intends to eventually merge with retribution to form Justice.  The overall theme of the series being "You cannot ignore Odium, but you can Cultivate it with Honor to create Justice."

 

This requires Honor-kid be able to also spend some time growing perspectives.  So that the intent isn't as biased, which is why she's left it alone for now and fleed.

 

With a lot of the second arc being about the difference between justice and vengeance.  And Jasnah being a critical component in that given her recent struggle with her own moral views on justice.  Most likely as the shard bearer.  Or perhaps the honor-kid taking over entirely once it develops better empathy.

 

This supported also by the order closest to her, Edgedancers, largely being about social justice.

Edited January 8, 2025 by truthgazer

[Mattel]

On 12/26/2024 at 5:29 PM, Thalydon said:

I want to think that she had a plan with Dalinar. Her intervention in his life led to him refusing Odium in OB, and also gave him the confidence and the wisdom, in part, to make the gamble he did at the end of WaT.

I can imagine her making the same realization Dalinar did: neither she nor honor could beat him without destroying Roshar, and humans could never pin Todium into a situation where he could lose. I personally think that Rayse would have made enough mistakes to allow this, or at least where the humans had a thousand years to plan.

I think that there is something very important here. Cultivation would never want to destroy all of Roshar. For even as much as she didn't want to be there when they first came, I believe that she has come to love it. She wouldn't try as hard as she does if she didn't. She purposefully orchestrated Dalinar taking up Honor's Shard. She would never do that if she felt like the greatest outcome was Roshar being destroyed. So either she knew he would take it up, or that he wouldn't. I believe that she knew that he would grow to be able to be worthy enough in Honor's eyes to take up the power. So either she saw Dalinar revoking the ability, or she thought that Dalinar would find peace. I feel like she knew that Taravangian would never accept peace, he would force Dalinar to choose between those two impossible choices at the top of Urithiru. And I think she knew Dalinar wouldn't choose those, if she knew that he would take up Honor. To me, those two would never happen, Dalinar becoming worthy of honor (according to Honor) and also choosing to bow to Taravangian or kill Gavinor. So I think she knew that Dalinar would revoke it.

Maybe. It is of course an action that surprised everybody. And we know that even if she was the best at predicting the probability of the future, she still could have possibly not have known what would happen. 

Actually, thinking about it now, Odium himself couldn't see what would happen. I don't have the quote right now, but like as Dalinar walks up to him, he says I can't really read you right now, maybe because of your son's influence. 

Welp those are my thoughts.

[ThatRedHead717]

On 1/9/2025 at 6:54 PM, Mattel said:

So either she saw Dalinar revoking the ability, or she thought that Dalinar would find peace. I feel like she knew that Taravangian would never accept peace, he would force Dalinar to choose between those two impossible choices at the top of Urithiru. And I think she knew Dalinar wouldn't choose those, if she knew that he would take up Honor. To me, those two would never happen, Dalinar becoming worthy of honor (according to Honor) and also choosing to bow to Taravangian or kill Gavinor. So I think she knew that Dalinar would revoke it.

This! I think everything happened according to Kora's plan. I think once the desolations started, she realized that Odium could never be beaten by her and Honor alone. Even with all of their power, and all of their scheming, and all of their magic fighters and knights, they would never have the ability and/or will to take down Odium in any way that mattered.

So she started planning. She created a new thing using the foundation of what Ado left behind. She took The Night and cultivated what was was there into something that couldn't be influenced by human thought. She had the Night watcher hold court for thousands of years so she could learn about people and their machinations, and used that as cover to draw in 3 specific people (at least). She drew in Dalinar to teach him to overcome Odium at the Battle of Thaylen field. She drew in Taravangian to prepare him to take up Odium. She drew in Lift for reasons we still don't know. She went to Dalinar one last time to convince him to take the last step to prepare him to become Honor. 

Idk if all of what happened was part of her plan, but she knew for sure that Dalinar could handle Honor better than Tanavast ever did. We saw in his interludes that he was never very good at wielding that power effectively because he was not well-aligned with it's Intent. And so she trusted in Dal-Honor being able to do a better job than Tan-Honor had in the past when it comes to Odium. Whether or not she predicted Retribution, she knew Dal-Honor Was the only way they could overcome Odium without destroying the planet. 

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

On 12/26/2024 at 1:07 AM, Leuthie said:

I have to disagree here. Cultivation fled because Retribution would have destroyed everything related to her if she stayed. She was responsible for him having to destroy Kharbranth, after all.

This situation is the exact reason that confirms for me that Cultivation planned the outcome start to finish.

For us, as readers, murdering one's own family and an entire city-state (of 10s of thousands of adults and children) is a disgusting, awful thing to do, but for Koravellum Avast..vessel of Cultivation, who participated in murdering God..taking up a part of its corpse..and having lived for 10,000+ years (7,000 of them on Roshar, witnessing every war and subsequent desolation)? That was "too much" for her? And she just so happened to have "looked away" with her own eyes AND Power at just the right moment that Taravangian could save Kharbranth and keep it a secret? For a guy who never shuts up about how smart he is, he's kinda dumb.

There is nothing that Taravangian could do that would make Cultivation avert her gaze. She wouldn't look away if he exploded Roshar into little bits, much less when he supposedly killed his own family. Yes, her agents died, but assassins who try to kill off royalty always run the risk of dying (unless they're Szeth). Unless Brandon writes on a page that she was completely taken by surprise, I am going to assume that the Shard with the best Futuresight we've seen thus far, was not taken by surprise by any of the events of WaT. 

Not to mention, she'd been withdrawing her investiture for quite a long time...otherwise she couldn't have dipped on a moments notice without some serious issues...none of which seemed to have happened. She just up and went, like she was waiting for her signal to leave. I could be wrong, have been before and will be again, but I'm pretty confident on this one that I'm not.

[Nitpicking]

22 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

... I am going to assume that the Shard with the best Futuresight we've seen thus far, was not taken by surprise by any of the events of WaT.

 Cosmere spoiler quibble:

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Spoiler

Preservation. We haven't been given a reason to think she's better than Preservation.

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[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

On 2/1/2025 at 10:42 AM, Nitpicking said:

 Cosmere spoiler quibble:

  Hide contents

Preservation. We haven't been given a reason to think she's better than Preservation.

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I'm not actually sure why you feel that way when, unless I'm missing something, we're talking about the difference between being right ~1,000 years out vs ~3,500-7,000 years out?

[Treamayne]

On 2/1/2025 at 10:42 AM, Nitpicking said:

 Cosmere spoiler quibble:

  Hide contents

Preservation. We haven't been given a reason to think she's better than Preservation.

 

1 hour ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

I'm not actually sure why you feel that way when, unless I'm missing something, we're talking about the difference between being right ~1,000 years out vs ~3,500-7,000 years out?

Preservation's Thanatos Batman Gambit was at least 2000yrs in-process (and possibly 3000+) but that point is probably moot since they are likely equals (or near equals), based on their intents. 

 

Edited February 4, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

On 12/25/2024 at 10:07 PM, Leuthie said:

I have to disagree here. Cultivation fled because Retribution would have destroyed everything related to her if she stayed. She was responsible for him having to destroy Kharbranth, after all.

She rolled the dice on Taravangian and it came up craps. His viewpoints were meant to show him vacillating between becoming what Cultivation wanted and becoming worse than Rayse. 

I think she had multiple plans and plays happening at the same time

If she was able to tame Odium through T, then great

I think her ultimate goal was to leave Roshar though and she pushed Dalinar to Honor's power knowing/hoping through her better than average Fortune/Future reading that he'd do what he did and free her. 

I'm on my 1st re-read, but I remember a flashback scene where she says she wants to leave, but Honor says they can't. I think she's been as deparate to leave Roshar as Odium for a long time.