Nightblood

[Ookla the Invariably Tired]

Sorry guys, I have a lot to say now that I've (finally) finished WaT.

In a cosmere discussion thread, some people were discussing 5 scholars vs 10 heralds, and Nightblood was a significant portion of that fight, what with its ability to destroy anyone, seemingly regardless of how invested they are. 

However, Nightblood has gained some shocking abilities by talking to Kaladin and the Honorblades (who are apparently sentient). It now has the ability to grant surgebinding abilities, indicating that was easy, as even the spren could do so. It gave Szeth lashing with no apparent limitations or (correct me if I'm wrong here) access to Stormlight. He was also unoathed, and Nightblood was giving Szeth at least the full abilities of the Windrunner honorblade. It seems fair to assume that Nightblood could grant the other surges, as it apparently Connected to Kaladin. 

This has a lot of very interesting (terrifying?) implications. I didn't see anything that indicated Nightblood continued to grant the surges once Kaladin's stormlight ran out, but I also didn't see evidence for the contrary. Should Nightblood be able to somehow grant surgebinding to any without stormlight, I don't believe anyone could defeat its wielder. Especially not that Nightblood has gained the self-control to not destroy its friends. This could make Szeth, even without a spren, into the most powerful warrior on Roshar, and likely in the Cosmere, capable of controlling any surge.

Hopefully this is not the case, and Brandon didn't introduce such an unbalanced character. I believe that Nightblood will still require stormlight to power the surges, and that they will consume people without enough investure (other than Szeth, Kaladin, and a few others whom Nightblood considers friends). However, the ability to event potentially grant more than one surge is an unheard of ability, and it will most likely have massive implications for stormlight era 2 and the rest of the cosmere. 

Additionally, Nightblood feeds on investure, not just stormlight. Thus, if Szeth could access towerlight, lifelight, voidlight, or warlight, he could very easily wield Nightblood. In fact, should he regain a spren bond, and therefore access to towerlight, I am certain he could conquer the entire city of Urithiru alone. 

As for the fight I referenced earlier, of the 10 heralds vs 5 scholars? I think that anyone of the scholars, with Nightblood, could decimate the Heralds. The ease with which Nightblood consumed the honor-bearers implied to me that Nightblood could consume the heralds more easily than we assumed, and the honor-bearers with likely highly invested beings, similar in nature to the fused or heralds themselves. Wielded by Szeth with proper amount of investure, Im not sure anyone, including Taln, could defeat him.

It seems like Brandon has left a lot of very important questions for us with Nightblood, which I hope are resolves quickly in book 6 of the Stormlight archives. In the meantime, thoughts?

 

[Karger he/him]

Conservation of energy is still canonically part of the cosmere.  The investiture must come from somewhere.

[alder24]

17 minutes ago, Thalydon said:

It gave Szeth lashing with no apparent limitations or (correct me if I'm wrong here) access to Stormlight.

This Stormlight came from Kaladin, who just swore the 5th Ideal and was Connected to Nightblood.

18 minutes ago, Thalydon said:

It seems fair to assume that Nightblood could grant the other surges, as it apparently Connected to Kaladin. 

Yes, he said he knows them all.

18 minutes ago, Thalydon said:

This has a lot of very interesting (terrifying?) implications.

Definitely terrifying  

19 minutes ago, Thalydon said:

Should Nightblood be able to somehow grant surgebinding to any without stormlight, I don't believe anyone could defeat its wielder.

Well, he can't grant them but without Stormlight they won't be able to use them. He still needs an external source of investiture for all of that.

However, I wonder, one of Bondsmith's powers is the ability to form a perpendicularity and draw in Stormlight directly from the Spiritual Realm - his wielder could use that, open a perpendicularity and with its power feed Nightblood, which is insane if you ask me. 

23 minutes ago, Thalydon said:

Additionally, Nightblood feeds on investure, not just stormlight. Thus, if Szeth could access towerlight, lifelight, voidlight, or warlight, he could very easily wield Nightblood. In fact, should he regain a spren bond, and therefore access to towerlight, I am certain he could conquer the entire city of Urithiru alone. 

I know Szeth is cool and powerful, but fighting against hundreds of Radiants, thousands of soldiers and the Sibling themselves is probably a bit too much for Szeth. Not to mention he doesn't want to fight anymore. Let him live in peace with his family, he deserved it. 

24 minutes ago, Thalydon said:

As for the fight I referenced earlier, of the 10 heralds vs 5 scholars? I think that anyone of the scholars, with Nightblood, could decimate the Heralds.

Sorry, I still think they have no chance. Heralds don't just have powers from their Honorblades, they have powers from being a Herald. Taln has shown why you shouldn't mess with him - and that was without the clarity of his mind and without his Honorblade.

26 minutes ago, Thalydon said:

The ease with which Nightblood consumed the honor-bearers implied to me that Nightblood could consume the heralds more easily than we assumed, and the honor-bearers with likely highly invested beings, similar in nature to the fused or heralds themselves.

Not even close. The Heralds are one of the most invested people in Cosmere. More than Fused, who have more than Ishar's Honorbearers.

28 minutes ago, Thalydon said:

Im not sure anyone, including Taln, could defeat him.

Nope. Taln is the best fighter in the entire Cosmere. Period.

[Nitpicking]

It's worth mentioning that Shinovar is now ruled by Retribution, and thus full of Voidlight. If Szeth can learn to trap Voidlight in spheres, he'll be able to use any Surge.

Note also: Progression is one such Surge. Nightblood, once it wakes up, should be able to heal Szeth using Voidlight.

[Ookla the Invariably Tired]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

I know Szeth is cool and powerful, but fighting against hundreds of Radiants, thousands of soldiers and the Sibling themselves is probably a bit too much for Szeth. Not to mention he doesn't want to fight anymore. Let him live in peace with his family, he deserved it. 

Valid. Still, the power that he holds in Nightblood is immense. It will be interesting to see what Szeth does with that, now that he has become a peaceful man with a wife. 

 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Sorry, I still think they have no chance. Heralds don't just have powers from their Honorblades, they have powers from being a Herald. Taln has shown why you shouldn't mess with him - and that was without the clarity of his mind and without his Honorblade.

Yes, the Heralds have great abilities, but Kaladin and Szeth both fought back for a time, and with a proper weapon, I believe they could be killed. There is a lot at play, and a lot of angles to consider. Nale was beaten by Lift, and despite his Heraldic powers, he failed to kill her or the Stump. I think that it is tough to gauge the potency of those powers, as they seem to contradict with other examples of Heralds fighting. Nale was able to defeat Kaladin, perhaps Roshar's greatest spearman, using his speed and agility, but Shallan as a girl killed Chana, despite the Herald having the advantage. IMO, we dont know enough about these powers to truly determine the outcome of a fight against the scholars with Nightblood, but I think this new Nightblood would pose a serious threat to the Heralds, especially if used with the bondsmith powers to open a perpendicularity. 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Not even close. The Heralds are one of the most invested people in Cosmere. More than Fused, who have more than Ishar's Honorbearers.

I don't know about that. Again, I think we dont know enough about the way Nightblood functions. There is not a clearly defined method by which Nightblood seems to be consuming its victims, but I haven't seen any evidence that the extent to which an individual is invested will make a difference. Logically, it would matter, but we dont know if it does. I also said it would happen more easily than we assumed, working off an assumption that it would be very difficult. I dont know, and if you remember somewhere that shows Nightblood struggling to consume a highly invested person, I would love to see it.

 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Nope. Taln is the best fighter in the entire Cosmere. Period.

Agreed. However, Taln died. He probably died the most, I would bet, of all the Heralds, as he picked such un-winable fights and won them. That doesnt mean much but he isn't invincible, and no one has even seen anything like the new Nightblood. Taln is the best fighter in the cosmere, but can anyone stand against someone expertly wielding all 10 surges? This is not a canon ability, but even the spren allow two at once, so why not ten? Again, we dont know enough, but I think Szeth specifically, wielding Nightblood and all ten surges, which he spent years training in, could give Taln a serious run for his money.

Just some thoughts. So much of this is unknown as of right now. However, if Nightblood can do what I hope (and fear) it can, then it is an incredible force in the cosmere.

[alder24]

9 hours ago, Thalydon said:

Yes, the Heralds have great abilities, but Kaladin and Szeth both fought back for a time, and with a proper weapon, I believe they could be killed.

Kaladin fought back? Kaladin got absolutely wrecked when Nale started to use his Herald's powers.

9 hours ago, Thalydon said:

Nale was beaten by Lift, and despite his Heraldic powers, he failed to kill her or the Stump.

In that fight Nale was winning, he lost only because Lift got to his mind and made him realize that he had failed. 

9 hours ago, Thalydon said:

Shallan as a girl killed Chana, despite the Herald having the advantage.

Chana didn't expect Shallan to have a Shardblade, and Chana hesitated to kill her daughter. It's not a fair comparison because that wasn't even a fight.

9 hours ago, Thalydon said:

I don't know about that.

When they are aligned with their Oaths and the Oathpact, they are one of the most invested people on Roshar. It doesn't mean they can get stabbed by Nightblood and walk it off (not even the Vessel can do that), but that gives them other advantages. In terms or raw investiture Heralds are more invested than Fused, Returned or Ishar's Fused. Full Cosmere spoiler WoB:

Spoiler

Argent

If we are looking at very highly Invested beings, we have Yumi, and we are told that she is more Invested than Elantrians, more Invested than Returned. Let's compare Yumi, Elantrians, and Heralds. Who is most Invested, who is least Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

Of those, probably Heralds... The thing is, the Heralds varied. How in tune and aligned they are with their oaths, their promise... It wasn't Oaths, but they did promise certain things when they became Heralds. It was pre Knights Radiants, it's not as formalized as Oaths. How in line with the power of Honor, how in line with the kind of natural Investiture of Roshar--which is separate from Honor, Cultivation and Odium--are they, how can they draw upon that. I will call them the least of the three though.

Argent

So Heralds on the bottom, and Yumi on top, and Elantrians in the middle?

Brandon Sanderson

Yumi on top, but Yumi's very close to an Elantrian. They're within the same conversation. And most of the yoki-hijo were traditionally in the past less, they've gained Investiture over time.

Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)

 

9 hours ago, Thalydon said:

Agreed. However, Taln died.

After slaughtering hundreds of Odium's soldiers including dozens of Fused and Regals. And he was at his worst, when he's at his best he would be unbeatable by the Five Scholars. 

The new Nightblood himself isn't really that different from Yelig-Nar, who also grants all Surges. He was defeated in OB, he was defeated in the past by Radiants and Heralds, they would do fine against all Surges granted by Nightblood. Heralds have Surges themselves and they have even more than that. They have unrivaled experience in fighting, unnatural physical enhancements that allows them to avoid Nightblood with ease, access to unlimited investiture drawn directly from Honor and there are 10 of them. Heralds are now all aware of what Nightblood is and how dangerous he is. 

If you want to discuss it more, I would advise you to continue it in the topic about Heralds vs Scholars.

9 hours ago, Thalydon said:

This is not a canon ability

Yelig-Nar.

9 hours ago, Thalydon said:

I think Szeth specifically, wielding Nightblood and all ten surges, which he spent years training in, could give Taln a serious run for his money.

Just no.

9 hours ago, Thalydon said:

if Nightblood can do what I hope (and fear) it can, then it is an incredible force in the cosmere.

Agreed. I'm super excited to see more of him. 

[Hoids Imaginary Friend]

Another interesting implication, in the shadesmere fight, Szeth was out of stormlight and Nightblood "helped" him create a bridge out of spheres..

[Leuthie]

On 12/23/2024 at 3:15 PM, alder24 said:

Nope. Taln is the best fighter in the entire Cosmere. Period.

Taln still uses Investiture to perform his abilities, and is made up of Investiture. Nightblood would suck him away as easily as he would anyone else. 

[alder24]

5 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Taln still uses Investiture to perform his abilities, and is made up of Investiture. Nightblood would suck him away as easily as he would anyone else. 

If you get to hit him. He is fast enough to catch a dart midair, Nale avoided every Kaladin's strike effortlessly (and Kaladin is better than Szeth) and caught an arrow from a Shardbow - avoiding Nightblood wouldn't be a problem for Taln.

And as a Herald, he draws investiture directly from Honor, which means he won't run out of it.

[Ookla the Invariably Tired]

One thing on the Nale-Kaladin fight, they said no stormlight, and Kaladin fought with nothing more than his armor, which Nale also had, but Nale fought with his additional powers from the ancient gods of the land. Without that, Kaladin would have landed multiple hits on Nale, as it was taking Nale using that extra speed to evade his strikes. This doesn’t mean much for someone hitting Taln with Nightblood, but it gives some perspective to the fight between Nale and Kaladin. I think the result would have been significantly different if Nale hadn’t used his additional powers.

[alder24]

11 hours ago, Thalydon said:

One thing on the Nale-Kaladin fight, they said no stormlight, and Kaladin fought with nothing more than his armor, which Nale also had, but Nale fought with his additional powers from the ancient gods of the land. Without that, Kaladin would have landed multiple hits on Nale, as it was taking Nale using that extra speed to evade his strikes. This doesn’t mean much for someone hitting Taln with Nightblood, but it gives some perspective to the fight between Nale and Kaladin. I think the result would have been significantly different if Nale hadn’t used his additional powers.

Yes, but also Nale was toying with Kaladin almost through the entirety of this fight. If he was fighting seriously and without using any of his powers, Kaladin would have been killed early on during the fight.

[Njvodin]

 

On 12/24/2024 at 7:15 AM, alder24 said:

Nope. Taln is the best fighter in the entire Cosmere. Period.

I second that, I literally got chills when reading that scene in Azir. 

I mean, he left a vacuum when he moved!

And then seeing the aftermath... WHEW.

[Ninth of the Night]

On 12/26/2024 at 5:40 AM, alder24 said:

and caught an arrow from a Shardbow

At point blank range no less. Casually, without even looking.

Taln is so fast as to cause a thunderclap by simply taking a few steps forward. He killed several Fused with his bare hands while running purely on instinct -- since his mind is currently too broken for rational or tactical thought. Imagine a sane Taln, fully clothed and with his Blade. Well thanks to Kaladin Stormtherapist we'll get to see a fully functioning Taln (and other Heralds) in their full glory!

Wait Taln's book won't be til the 9th entry? Jeez can someone just put me in a coma for 20 years already.

[QuantumAce]

4 hours ago, Ninth of the Night said:

Imagine a sane Taln, fully clothed and with his Blade.

I am now going to add the qualifier "fully clothed" to all of my thoughts on Taln. 

"Could Taln, at the sixth heightening, fully clothed, with an aviar, beat a fullborn?"