New Radiant Orders in the back half?

[Atlas333]

I thought I'd bring the subject up even if the answer is probably a no.

The current fate of Roshar is a big mystery, the magic system being one of them. How does a merged shard affect the current magic system?

The only real example we have is Harmony and Era 2 Scadrial. Era 2 introduced to us the concept of twinborn (at the loss of mistborn and full feruchemist). If we were to use era 2 Scadrial as our example I would expect that era 2 surgebinders would become less powerful but more varied. Of course, what happened on Scadrial doesn't determine what will happen on Roshar.

The only relevant WoB on the subject makes it clear new orders are possible but incredibly unlikely.

Quote

Questioner

Could new Orders eventually be formed?

Brandon Sanderson

This is plausibly possible but highly, highly unlikely. A lot of things are possible in the Stormlight Archive that are highly unlikely. So I rarely say "no," because I built the magic systems of the cosmere to be able to do a lot of things, 'cause I knew I was going to be writing in a lot of different worlds. Which means that very few things are completely off-limits. But there's a lot of things that are unlikely to happen.

Tor Instagram Livestream (Nov. 25, 2020)

The other factor is that radiant orders were created to mimic the heralds. Despite gaining a new herald I don't think a new order will form as they were mainly taking the place of Jerizen.

The other caveat to this is enlightened surgebinders. Is an enlightened truthwatcher still considered a truthwatcher or as enlightened spren become more common will they be considered their own separate order of radiant? Only time will tell I suppose. 

[Leuthie]

Fused and Radiants were playing in a pool with limits imposed by Honor and Odium. The access and limits to Surges are now fully defined by Retribution and whatever old spren the Heralds can protect. There are no hard limits. Mishram and Sja-anat are the real wildcards in this.

Edited December 20, 2024 by Leuthie

[Wanguu He/Him]

41 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

The access and limits to Surges are now fully defined by Retribution and whatever old spren the Heralds can protect.

What about Cultivation? 

I personally don't think that we will get new orders/surges. The only radiant order that we fully understand the surges of is Windrunner and maybe skybreaker.

[Cheapshot]

6 hours ago, Wanguu said:

What about Cultivation? 

I personally don't think that we will get new orders/surges. The only radiant order that we fully understand the surges of is Windrunner and maybe skybreaker.

cultivation has left the planet*
 

I don’t think she’s apart of this whole equation. 

[alder24]

19 hours ago, Atlas333 said:

I thought I'd bring the subject up even if the answer is probably a no.

The current fate of Roshar is a big mystery, the magic system being one of them. How does a merged shard affect the current magic system?

The only real example we have is Harmony and Era 2 Scadrial. Era 2 introduced to us the concept of twinborn (at the loss of mistborn and full feruchemist). If we were to use era 2 Scadrial as our example I would expect that era 2 surgebinders would become less powerful but more varied. Of course, what happened on Scadrial doesn't determine what will happen on Roshar.

Twinborn aren't because of Harmony, they happen because of mixing and diluting Feruchemical genes with Allomantic. Ferrings did appear before Catacendre, but were extremely rare.

Spoiler

Travyl (paraphrased)

Why do the Twinborn in Alloy of Law have only one Feruchemical power, when all previous Feruchemists, in spite of breeding programs, could use all the metals? 

WetlanderNW (paraphrased)

Or were Ferrings always part of the system and we just didn't meet them in Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Ferrings are a new development since Mistborn, as the Feruchemists have been interbreeding with the Allomancers. Basically, the Allomancy genes interfere with the Feruchemy genes, breaking it down and creating the limitations we see in Alloy of Law.

Footnote: Brandon's response was very enthusiastic. He noted how perceptive the question was, and obviously enjoyed the discussion. The reporter has expressed their regret at lack of an audio recording to share his enthusiasm.
Alloy of Law Seattle Signing (Nov. 11, 2011)

 

Spoiler

Chaos (paraphrased)

Since the dawn of Scadrial, why was Feruchemy isolated in a single distinct population in the world, namely the Terrismen? Allomancy, while rare within the population of Scadrial, at least was not isolated to one population, it was spread evenly, it seems. What is special about the Terrismen that only they get the power of Feruchemy? Does it have something to do with the previous Ascensions before Rashek, with the guardian keeping the power for a time?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It's all in the spiritual DNA, which is passed on like normal DNA. However, they are a separate people. They've kept themselves isolated, similar to the Jews in our world. When I asked he said there have been some Feruchemical-mistings [Ferrings] in the past, but they are very rare.

Ancient 17S Q&A (May 1, 2010)

 

19 hours ago, Atlas333 said:

The only relevant WoB on the subject makes it clear new orders are possible but incredibly unlikely.

Quote

Questioner

Could new Orders eventually be formed?

Brandon Sanderson

This is plausibly possible but highly, highly unlikely. A lot of things are possible in the Stormlight Archive that are highly unlikely. So I rarely say "no," because I built the magic systems of the cosmere to be able to do a lot of things, 'cause I knew I was going to be writing in a lot of different worlds. Which means that very few things are completely off-limits. But there's a lot of things that are unlikely to happen.

Tor Instagram Livestream (Nov. 25, 2020)

The other factor is that radiant orders were created to mimic the heralds. Despite gaining a new herald I don't think a new order will form as they were mainly taking the place of Jerizen.

The other caveat to this is enlightened surgebinders. Is an enlightened truthwatcher still considered a truthwatcher or as enlightened spren become more common will they be considered their own separate order of radiant? Only time will tell I suppose. 

Because of this WoB and some others I think we won't see new Radiants anytime soon. Radiants were created by formalization of Oaths and Bonds by Ishar - it's not just about bonding a spren. Without Ishar doing some changes and some new types of sentient spren (there are sentient Voidspren, they might be capable of giving Surges), there won't be any new orders. 

But we will see more Voidbinding for sure (which is what Renaring and Rlain are doing, they are accessing the "Void" of Illumination instead of normal Surge) as new Enlighten Spren arise. They are still considered as Radiants, but just a little different.

Spoiler

Questioner

One. Can there be Nahel Bonds with more then ten types of spren because we have ten Orders.

Brandon Sanderson

Meaning, are there other possible spren that could form other Orders of Knights Radiant that are not the ten? This is theoretically possible, but that is basically what you could argue is happening to Renarin. So now if you want to say... if you want to throw out the exception of spren who were one of the ten who got changed, then this is theoretically possible but right now currently wouldn't work.

Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019)

 

Spoiler

Tom Goldthwait

At any point in the Rosharan history, was it possible to form a Nahel bond without swearing oaths?

Brandon Sanderson

"Nahel bond" is the phrase used for a bond between a spren and a being from the Physical Realm. That is the definition of it. So the answer to that is yes; it's currently possible right now. It's how greatshells exist and grow to the size they do. It's how Ryshadium exist. Those are Nahel bonds also.

What you're asking is if a sapient spren, a spren and a sapient individual, forming what we currently call the Radiant bond, which has access to much greater power; was that possible without swearing oaths? Yes and no. The formalization of the oaths and the Orders aligned with certain spren did take a little bit of time to come together. It was possible to form a Nahel bond before that, but it was not a Radiant bond accessing the levels of powers that are currently possible. So it's another one of these "yes and no" answers, if that makes any sense.

You could find a Nahel bond... In fact, many would call the bond between the singers and the spren that give them forms Nahel bonds. It may not fit fully into the categorization that most people would use it for, but you could kinda call that the same thing.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

Spoiler

PhoenixKnight777

Each Order of Radiant has some resonance between their Surges, correct? Can you give us some examples of what would happen in a Surgebinder somehow achieved an impossible pairing, such as Division and Illumination or Transformation and Gravitation?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't really thought about it. You go ahead and theorize on that, I'm sure you can come up with interesting ones. Totally possible in the cosmere. The structure that is on Roshar prevents it from currently happening, but totally possible. I mean, very plausible. I haven't theorized on those yet, so I'm not going to right now.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Argent

Let's talk about Renarin, and Voidbinding. So, with that page we talked about, Renarin Voidbinds. I asked about visions, you pointed to Voidbinding chart, he Voidbinds. Is that using Stormlight to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we've seen?  

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. 

Argent

Is that what voidbinding is? 

Brandon Sanderson

No, but close. You're on the right track. We are gonna get into that, I'm not gonna tell you what the chart means, and things like that. But yeah, something really weird is happening there. 

Footnote: The chart referenced is the back endsheet in The Way of Kings.
Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

 

8 hours ago, Cheapshot said:

cultivation has left the planet*

I don’t think she’s apart of this whole equation. 

She is, her spren were left on Roshar and are still Splinters of Cultivation capable of granting a Radiant bond with Surges. Surgebinding was of both Honor and Cultivation because they've created 10 types of sapient spren together (one is pure Cultivation). 

[Elite01]

Okay so begging the question, will more Spren be enlightened? It seems like the popular answer is yes but do you think Retribution approves of enlightening spren? We know Rayse didn’t. I’m curious if Taravangian won’t want an umade working independently from him so maybe he will personally enlightening them?

and I don’t think we will see new radiant orders because Brandon seems to be saving stoneward and dustrbingers for later but maybe we could see new fused? Or enemy radiants? 
like a parshendi who has access to both illumination and gravitation but don’t swear oaths? 

[Leuthie]

Surgebinding had limits imposed by deals Honor and Cultivation made with Odium. Those deals are all gone now. There are no Radiant orders or Oaths.

The remaining spren are access points to Surges with no outside checks, aside from whatever Retribution imposes. There also isn't any free, transportable light. Post-book 5 is the wild wild west of Roshar magic.

Herald flashbacks might include on screen Radiants we didn't get to see, but going forward, the Radiant system is nearly gone.

[Palindrome]

15 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Surgebinding had limits imposed by deals Honor and Cultivation made with Odium. Those deals are all gone now. There are no Radiant orders or Oaths.

The remaining spren are access points to Surges with no outside checks, aside from whatever Retribution imposes. There also isn't any free, transportable light. Post-book 5 is the wild wild west of Roshar magic.

Herald flashbacks might include on screen Radiants we didn't get to see, but going forward, the Radiant system is nearly gone.

In sunlit man the scadrians asked sigzil if he was oathed, so I think the radiant system is still in effect going forward.

[Argenti he/him]

16 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Surgebinding had limits imposed by deals Honor and Cultivation made with Odium. Those deals are all gone now. There are no Radiant orders or Oaths.

The remaining spren are access points to Surges with no outside checks, aside from whatever Retribution imposes. There also isn't any free, transportable light. Post-book 5 is the wild wild west of Roshar magic.

Herald flashbacks might include on screen Radiants we didn't get to see, but going forward, the Radiant system is nearly gone.

That doesn't make sense. The orders where made by ishar, not honor. He's still around. They have less limits, sure but that's like microkineses, not oaths.

[alder24]

On 12/24/2024 at 9:08 AM, Leuthie said:

Surgebinding had limits imposed by deals Honor and Cultivation made with Odium. Those deals are all gone now. There are no Radiant orders or Oaths.

While it's true, those limitations were already gone after Tanavast died. However, Radiants Orders were established by Ishar himself so they are still standing strong as they are separate from Oaths made by Honor. 

[AlmightyGir]

My understanding is that even under the new oathpact, the heralds and the radiants are still bound to a portion of Honor's power, by Ishar and his bondsmithing.

And due to the nature of Honor as a Shard/power/intent, Retribution would not be willing to break that bond, it's an oath sworn to the power. I think the willingness/unwillingness of the power to break these kind of oaths is proven by Retributions new storm stopping exactly at the borders of Azyr, which is to the letter of the agreement made at the contest of champions.

I also think this might be backed up by some of those pieces of Honor that Dalinar saw flying off as Taravengian took up the power. Undoubtedly some went to some specific spren, and to Kaladin. But I think some likely went to just generally maintain the oaths already in place. After all, none of the current Radiants had forsaken their oaths, and Honor would certainly not do so.

[Nitpicking]

On 12/26/2024 at 7:28 AM, alder24 said:

While it's true, those limitations were already gone after Tanavast died. However, Radiants Orders were established by Ishar himself so they are still standing strong as they are separate from Oaths made by Honor. 

Here's a thought. The oaths of the Knights Radiant were made (with one known exception) to the megaspren--The Nightwatcher, The Stormfather, and The Sibling. Two of those still exist, and Syl replaces the Stormfather. Their oaths would still be in force.

Could Ba-Ado-Mishram accept an oath, creating a new order of non-aligned-with-any-Shard Radiants?

[AlmightyGir]

10 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

Here's a thought. The oaths of the Knights Radiant were made (with one known exception) to the megaspren--The Nightwatcher, The Stormfather, and The Sibling. Two of those still exist, and Syl replaces the Stormfather. Their oaths would still be in force.

Could Ba-Ado-Mishram accept an oath, creating a new order of non-aligned-with-any-Shard Radiants?

Presumably, BAM's thing is actually the unoathed?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

The big wildcard are the Voidspren. They know that they owe their existence to some random nice humans. I really doubt that many will be loyal to Retribution. They might seek safety in bonds with humans. I think we may be seeing true Voidbinders all over the Cosmere in the future.

[ScavellTane]

I think animal bonds will likely begin now, the kind we see with Aviars.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 12/21/2024 at 6:47 PM, Elite01 said:

Okay so begging the question, will more Spren be enlightened? It seems like the popular answer is yes but do you think Retribution approves of enlightening spren?

Why would the spren or Sja-Anat care? Retribution wants them dead anyway.

[QuantumHarmonix he/him]

I think there is a chance that Retribution keeps the current system. Mostly because it was a deal that Odium made with Honor and Odium did not revoke his oaths. Tarrivangian even specifically points out that he was keeping his oaths to get Honor to join with him to form Retribution. I think the bigger issue is going to be how to get the investiture to power the surges now that Stormlight is gone and they would need to get Warlight from Retribution.