Is/was Taln a Dawnshard?

[the_archduke]

No one seems to be talking about the casual mention that Taln was given a weapon to kill Cultivation.   Other than Nightblood, do we know of anything that can kill a Shard other than a Dawnshard?  Technically, I don't think we've been told that a Dawnshard can kill a Shard, but it is a reasonable inference since they were used to kill Adonalsium.

Crack theory time.  Taln held Exist before Hoid, and that is the weapon referred to that he was going to use to kill Cultivation.  He subsequently gives the Dawnshard to Hoid, or Hoid takes it the first time he died as a Herald.  His Torment then allowed him to handle 4.5k years of torture.  

[Sheepyshoe]

I definitely overlooked that as I was reading. Thank you for the reminder. 
 

Possibly a Dawnshard, but if Hoid and Sigzils torment prevent them from harming/attacking anyone, we’d have to assume Taln lost the torment, or perhaps didn’t hold it long enough for a torment to form since he’s able to fight through the desolations and in the battle for Azimir. 

[Isilel]

2 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

Taln held Exist before

Didn't Hold mention that he unknowingly picked up his Dawnshard back on Yolen before the Shattering? In any case, Exist doesn't allow one to kill living creatures as seen with Hoid and with Sigzil in TSM.

But Taln could have had Change instead? Or something crafted with the help of a Dawnshard?

In any case, we now know that Taln was special among the Heralds in that he was born on Roshar (he refers to Ashyn as "my grandmother's world"), was never Connected to Odium and was the 4th person that we know of, who had been directly touched by Cultivation. All of which may have played a role in his steadfastness.

[the_archduke]

Yeah, maybe Exist is the wrong one.  Or maybe not.  The 16 killed Adonalsium, and they used Exist in part to do it.  Either they got around the Torment somehow, or not being able to hurt mortals is different from not being able to kill Gods.  

Taln does not seem to have any restrictions on his ability to hurt others.  So maybe he held Change, and the Laceryn recovered it after he died as a Herald.

Edited December 18, 2024 by the_archduke

[Inevitability]

My crack theory is that Kalak created the continuity chain to give to Taln and Taln lost it. Brandon teased that bad boy back in OB and also in Sunlit Man

[RedBlue]

Quote

“Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above." From The Poem of Ista. I have found no modern explanation of what these "Dawnshards" are. They seem ignored by scholars, though talk of them was obviously prevalent among those recording the early mythologies.

This is from Jasnah’s notes (WoK epigraphs).

This has been a bit of a mystery ever since WoK. If it refers to the Change Dawnshard, that’s odd, because the context of a grand temple and steps for Heralds doesn’t mesh with how the Sleepless are hiding it. Same issue with the Exist Dawnshard, assuming Wit has had it all along.

If there is another Dawnshard that was used by Taln and then taken away, and that’s the incident the epigraph is referring to, then it begins to make sense. The ‘steps crafted for Heralds’ line is strange, since the Heralds weren’t a thing when Taln tried to kill Cultivation, but that could be down to the whole era becoming mythologised.
 

Quote

“His soul is warped,” Jezrien said, “from his attempt to kill Cultivation.”

From WaT chapter 65, referring to Taln.

Soul warping is, as we know, caused by holding a Dawnshard. It seems unlikely there could be another type of god-killing, soul-warping weapon hanging around. As other people on this thread have pointed out, Taln can’t have held the Exist Dawnshard because that would severely hamper his ability to fight, but he could have held a different Dawnshard. We don’t know what effects the others have on their holders.

My speculation: Taln once held the Bind Dawnshard. 

[+Child of Hodor]

I don’t think Exist would be that useful in killing by itself. It along with the other 3 were used to kill Adonalsium but by itself I’m not sure. 

Having been a Dawnshard would go a long way toward explaining why he resisted the torture far far longer than anyone else besides just saying he’s that much better than everyone else naturally. 

[EvilCrabs]

5 hours ago, the_archduke said:

No one seems to be talking about the casual mention that Taln was given a weapon to kill Cultivation.   Other than Nightblood, do we know of anything that can kill a Shard other than a Dawnshard?  Technically, I don't think we've been told that a Dawnshard can kill a Shard, but it is a reasonable inference since they were used to kill Adonalsium.

Crack theory time.  Taln held Exist before Hoid, and that is the weapon referred to that he was going to use to kill Cultivation.  He subsequently gives the Dawnshard to Hoid, or Hoid takes it the first time he died as a Herald.  His Torment then allowed him to handle 4.5k years of torture.  

If he held that Dawnshard then how would die so easily from some spears, when Hoid supposedly can survive a shardblade? Idk maybe he used one of the unknown Dawnshards 

[Isilel]

These steps from the poem of Ista wouldn't have fit the human-sized Heralds ... But could they have been built to accommodate Cultivation in her dragon form?

[JPGU]

2 hours ago, EvilCrabs said:

If he held that Dawnshard then how would die so easily from some spears, when Hoid supposedly can survive a shardblade? Idk maybe he used one of the unknown Dawnshards 

You can still die even if you held a dawnshard if you don't have investiture, we see that with Sigzil in Sunlit Man

Edited December 19, 2024 by JPGU

[Display-Names-Are-Stupid]

2 hours ago, EvilCrabs said:

If he held that Dawnshard then how would die so easily from some spears, when Hoid supposedly can survive a shardblade? Idk maybe he used one of the unknown Dawnshards 

Saying he died easily from some spears is a massive disservice to the feat he and Ash accomplished. They absolutely destroyed numbers of Fused that would have given an army trouble, and I believe it was something like a dozen or more spears (can't check as I don't have my book on my currently).

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

I also think it's got to have been a Dawnshard. I don't think Exist fits. Maybe Change. But I was thinking maybe one of the other two.

Now that we know 2 Dawnshards and all 16 shard Intents, can we figure out the others? If we have Exist and Change, could the others be Create and Destroy? Destroy would make a good weapon (the torment from that has gotta be terrible though)

[a Faceless Immortal he/him]

I agree, my first thought was definitely a Dawnshard. However, my instincts tell me it can't be change either. Taln is remarkable for being unchanging and constant, and just like how the curse of 'Exist' is an inability to harm, 'Change' will undoubtedly leave some kind of mark that resists stagnation.

I do however find it extremely unlikely that there was a third Dawnshard in residence on Roshar, so perhaps it must be 'Change' after all? Perhaps Taln exemplified change by breaking the cycle of Desolations, and so the shard was okay with this even if he personally was kept in stasis for some five millennia.

[+Child of Hodor]

21 minutes ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

I agree, my first thought was definitely a Dawnshard. However, my instincts tell me it can't be change either. Taln is remarkable for being unchanging and constant, and just like how the curse of 'Exist' is an inability to harm, 'Change' will undoubtedly leave some kind of mark that resists stagnation.

I do however find it extremely unlikely that there was a third Dawnshard in residence on Roshar, so perhaps it must be 'Change' after all? Perhaps Taln exemplified change by breaking the cycle of Desolations, and so the shard was okay with this even if he personally was kept in stasis for some five millennia.

He did get super ripped during his time as a Herald, he is described as having a gut right before he became a herald, so there's that change .

[a Faceless Immortal he/him]

26 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

He did get super ripped during his time as a Herald, he is described as having a gut right before he became a herald, so there's that change .

"Want a godly physique? Other so called fitness 'experts' throughout the Cosmere would have you rely on demonstrably unreliable processes like Shaodification or Endowment's blessings to build the perfect body, but we here at the Ten Heralds know that the path to true beauty is a millennia spent in Damnation. Nothing burns fat or sculpts muscle quite so well as the burning hooks wielded by an army of vengeful spirits -- and always remember; Life before Death, Strength before Weakness, Pain before Gain."

[alder24]

This makes a lot of sense, but Dawnshards make their bearers ageless and immortal - Sigzil is a prime example of this. Taln specifically said "no, thank you" to Honor's offer of immortality, claiming it's not a good thing. I doubt he would have said it like this if he already was immortal. 

WaT ch 65:

Quote

“Immortality,” Tanavast said, his voice echoing the thunder from above. “I offer it to you, Talenel.”
“Ah,” Taln said. “No, thank you. With all due respect.”
“… Excuse me?” Tanavast said. “Isn’t this what all men secretly want?”
“I have heard too many stories,” Taln said. “Living out those eons doesn’t suit men well. Though if you have a new pair of sandals, I wouldn’t mind those.”
“I offer powers unimaginable,” Tanavast said.
“I can imagine quite a lot,” Taln said, “and some of it is downright terrible. I think I will pass.”

[Argenti he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

This makes a lot of sense, but Dawnshards make their bearers ageless and immortal - Sigzil is a prime example of this. Taln specifically said "no, thank you" to Honor's offer of immortality, claiming it's not a good thing. I doubt he would have said it like this if he already was immortal. 

WaT ch 65:

It's possible that he had the one that was "somehow different than the rest," and it didn't make him immortal. And do we know if change does this too? Or just Exist? 

[+Child of Hodor]

A point against Taln having had the Exist Dawnshard is he has no problem hurting people, he's quite good at it. 

Holding a Dawnshard is not the only explanation for the soul warping.  It could be explained by Cultivation changing his spiritweb as she likes to do to people on occasion. Heck the order of events might be slightly off. Maybe he went to the Valley for a boon and didn't like the resulting change and tried to stab her. 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

This makes a lot of sense, but Dawnshards make their bearers ageless and immortal - Sigzil is a prime example of this. Taln specifically said "no, thank you" to Honor's offer of immortality, claiming it's not a good thing. I doubt he would have said it like this if he already was immortal. 

WaT ch 65:

34 minutes ago, Argenti said:

It's possible that he had the one that was "somehow different than the rest," and it didn't make him immortal. And do we know if change does this too? Or just Exist? 

It's a good point he clearly thinks he is mortal. It could be he had one that didn't give him that or he hasn't figured out that he's immortal because it hasn't been very long since he gave it up or lost it. The Dawnshards don't exactly come with instructions that explain the consequences of being one.

[Argenti he/him]

50 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Holding a Dawnshard is not the only explanation for the soul warping.  It could be explained by Cultivation changing his spiritweb as she likes to do to people on occasion. Heck the order of events might be slightly off. Maybe he went to the Valley for a boon and didn't like the resulting change and tried to stab her. 

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

You can also have a soul warping, just by doing things, or having a lot of power course through you. 

A thunderclast's soul is warped, so is a Sliver, and so is a savant. I'm pretty sure someone at some point had a warped soul from murdering people. Something about intent and corrupted investiture, I bet.