Metallic arts and Gemstone Spikes

[Sythrin]

We saw in "Wind and truth" that Hemalurgy far exceeds only metals, but can also be used with gemstones.
So I have some questions.
First of all. Do some hemalurgy experts, maybe some kandra know about it? Like they are using crystal bodies that were confirmed to be capable of holding stormlight. So there is some argument that they know or maybe the lord ruler knew.

Another thing. If gemhearts are capable of doing that. Maybe other materials that we previously believed incapable of being used as spikes. Can be used as well? For example we mostly asume, you cannot use silver for spikes, because it is not part of the 16 in some form a godmetal or alloy. So perhaps just the right knowledge/intent was missing? After all, aluminum can be used to an extent too even if it is an outlier among the metals, just like Silver.

Do you believe that gemstones can be used in allomancy or feruchemy? Maybe by a full feruchemist or Mistborn? Or maybe it could be developed?

Does it matter if the gemspike is pefect or not? Does it leak its investiture if not?

[Through The Living Grub He/Him]

1 hour ago, Sythrin said:

We saw in "Wind and truth" that Hemalurgy far exceeds only metals, but can also be used with gemstones.
So I have some questions.
First of all. Do some hemalurgy experts, maybe some kandra know about it? Like they are using crystal bodies that were confirmed to be capable of holding stormlight. So there is some argument that they know or maybe the lord ruler knew.

Another thing. If gemhearts are capable of doing that. Maybe other materials that we previously believed incapable of being used as spikes. Can be used as well? For example we mostly asume, you cannot use silver for spikes, because it is not part of the 16 in some form a godmetal or alloy. So perhaps just the right knowledge/intent was missing? After all, aluminum can be used to an extent too even if it is an outlier among the metals, just like Silver.

Do you believe that gemstones can be used in allomancy or feruchemy? Maybe by a full feruchemist or Mistborn? Or maybe it could be developed?

Does it matter if the gemspike is pefect or not? Does it leak its investiture if not?

I doubt that a gemstone can be used by Mistings or Ferrings, maybe Mistborn and full Feruchemists, but who knows. Silver does seem to react with Investiture, but so far not the Metalic Arts, again not sure.

The thing about the eyesight is cool, we have ironsight as seen in Inquisitors, and Moash with (spensight?) I think you don't need perfect gems because of the Law of Hemalurgic Decay, it won't really matter I guess. I do want to add my two clips here: someone like Rock, or Rock himself was killed, to make these spikes. 

[Argenti he/him]

2 hours ago, Sythrin said:

First of all. Do some hemalurgy experts, maybe some kandra know about it? Like they are using crystal bodies that were confirmed to be capable of holding stormlight. So there is some argument that they know or maybe the lord ruler knew.

I bet both of them knew that gemstones interact with their powers somehow, but didn't really have a way to take advantage of this.

2 hours ago, Sythrin said:

Do you believe that gemstones can be used in allomancy or feruchemy? Maybe by a full feruchemist or Mistborn? Or maybe it could be developed?

No. It's pretty clear that that stuff is already covered by normal hemalurgy, why would there be duplicates? Gemalurgy™ is something new, with new powers, and under new, if related, rules. 

2 hours ago, Sythrin said:

Does it matter if the gemspike is pefect or not? Does it leak its investiture if not?

I doubt it. Law of Hemalurgic decay and all that.

 

8 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

I do want to add my two clips here: someone like Rock, or Rock himself was killed, to make these spikes.

That's a thought. I assumed they're more like fabrials, and they can see investiture in general, not just spren.

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

17 hours ago, Xiahida said:

I do want to add my two clips here: someone like Rock, or Rock himself was killed, to make these spikes. 

Oh no. That might be right and could be a DARK thing to have in Horneater novella if it ever comes out 

Edited December 17, 2024 by Dreamwa1ker

[Blackroot]

My read of this was that, because ruin and preservation made Scadrial, the metal of Scadrial is imbued with investiture. Different metals are encoded with different abilities, similar to how honor encoded oaths with surges, hence why iron spikes are needed for inquisitor eyes. This would also explain why iron eyes see metal, when crystal eyes see investiture.

Since storm/void/warlight and the crystals that contain them are fairly generic investiture, they could be used to replicate heamalurgy by someone with knowledge of Ruin's art. To me, it's sort of like allomancers using purified dor to perform metallic arts.

And yes, I agree that it would still require killing a person first.

[CosmereNerdSpren]

On 12/16/2024 at 9:58 AM, Sythrin said:

Does it matter if the gemspike is pefect or not?

I think so because if it's perfect there isn't anywhere for the investiture to leak. Metal also has imperfections in the molecular (axial?) structure allowing for investiture to leak out when used as a hemalurgic medium.

[Quantus he/him]

On 12/16/2024 at 1:07 PM, Argenti said:

No. It's pretty clear that that stuff is already covered by normal hemalurgy, why would there be duplicates? Gemalurgy™ is something new, with new powers, and under new, if related, rules. 

 

Alternatively, it could be that this was always within the rules of Hemalurgy. Perhaps it's always been that you can Rip Spiritwebs with Bindpionts and Any object capable of Investiture Storage, and Scadrial simply only ever knew about Metal as an option. Who knows, maybe a spiked rock covered in White Sand microbes could work, or maybe some prepared AonDor object could do it too (Im drawing a blank on any other options offhand, but we know Gems and Metals are special in general).  

[Through the Living Wrath he/him]

3 hours ago, Quantus said:

Alternatively, it could be that this was always within the rules of Hemalurgy. Perhaps it's always been that you can Rip Spiritwebs with Bindpionts and Any object capable of Investiture Storage, and Scadrial simply only ever knew about Metal as an option. Who knows, maybe a spiked rock covered in White Sand microbes could work, or maybe some prepared AonDor object could do it too (Im drawing a blank on any other options offhand, but we know Gems and Metals are special in general).  

Hmmmm

But what about awakening?

That could, perhaps, be interesting should It be done right.

On 12/16/2024 at 1:07 PM, Argenti said:

I bet both of them knew that gemstones interact with their powers somehow, but didn't really have a way to take advantage of this.

No. It's pretty clear that that stuff is already covered by normal hemalurgy, why would there be duplicates? Gemalurgy™ is something new, with new powers, and under new, if related, rules. 

I doubt it. Law of Hemalurgic decay and all that.

 

That's a thought. I assumed they're more like fabrials, and they can see investiture in general, not just spren.

Inquisitor sight works by peering into the Spiritual Realm,

And Rock’s sight seems like it peers into the Cognitive Realm…

If so, it would make sense for Moashsight to work like Rock’s.

[Quantus he/him]

55 minutes ago, SpiritOfWrath said:

Hmmmm

But what about awakening?

 

It could go either way, I think.   Being Willing to Give the Power has been pretty baked in so far, so its possible that Endowment's Intent would be too fundamentally opposed to direct Theft of Investiture to be the driving force behind it.  But WOB says metal Hemalurgy could steal Breaths, so it's not 100% incompatible. But Barring some kind of fundamental incompatibility like that, I think you should be able to use Awakening to prepare an Investiture Storage Object just as much as you should be able to with AonDor, and the existence of the term [Era4/sample spoilers]

Spoiler

"Awakened Metalminds"

supports that something along those lines is likely.  

[Yomisma]

There were too many things I didn't like in the last book. But there was one thing that intrigued me. Dalinar was as invested as Kelsier at the moment of his death. And we were also shown the storm-spikes in Moash's eyes.

And we also already have the kandras and ferrings and Adonalsium knows who else. And Stormfather who knows a lot more than he's saying. Can Dalinar become a cognitive shadow? Here now only the laziest do not become cognitive shadows. And this thing with Nohadon's light and all these visions of his without the participation of the stormfather: light, warmth. That's why I'm asking about Dalinar in the form of a cognitive shadow.

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, Yomisma said:

There were too many things I didn't like in the last book. But there was one thing that intrigued me. Dalinar was as invested as Kelsier at the moment of his death. And we were also shown the storm-spikes in Moash's eyes.

And we also already have the kandras and ferrings and Adonalsium knows who else. And Stormfather who knows a lot more than he's saying. Can Dalinar become a cognitive shadow? Here now only the laziest do not become cognitive shadows. And this thing with Nohadon's light and all these visions of his without the participation of the stormfather: light, warmth. That's why I'm asking about Dalinar in the form of a cognitive shadow.

If Dalinar had not left for the Beyond, yes, he could have been spiked into a body like Kelsier or have simply existed in the Cognitive Realm as long as he'd wanted.

But, given his departure, I don't think it will happen. 

[AlmightyGir]

On 12/16/2024 at 5:58 PM, Xiahida said:

The thing about the eyesight is cool, we have ironsight as seen in Inquisitors, and Moash with (spensight?) I think you don't need perfect gems because of the Law of Hemalurgic Decay. 

I don't think the gems need to be perfect at all, in fact Moash was described as having the gems growing out the top of his head, wasn't he? It's possible that the gems used in this instance didn't look the way they do now when the process started.

On the note of Ironsight vs sprensight... I would be willing to bet that they are essentially the same thing, and that Ironsight is actually the lesser version of it. They both see investiture. Metals in Scadrial all seem to be invested in some small way, you burn them to gain access to the investiture they hold. So I think Ironsight is just a method of viewing investiture, and on Scadrial, metals are invested enough to be seen in this way.

That of course, doesn't explain why it can't see invested people. A small hole in the theory, to be sure.

[Trusk'our he/him]

3 hours ago, AlmightyGir said:

I don't think the gems need to be perfect at all, in fact Moash was described as having the gems growing out the top of his head, wasn't he? It's possible that the gems used in this instance didn't look the way they do now when the process started.

On the note of Ironsight vs sprensight... I would be willing to bet that they are essentially the same thing, and that Ironsight is actually the lesser version of it. They both see investiture. Metals in Scadrial all seem to be invested in some small way, you burn them to gain access to the investiture they hold. So I think Ironsight is just a method of viewing investiture, and on Scadrial, metals are invested enough to be seen in this way.

That of course, doesn't explain why it can't see invested people. A small hole in the theory, to be sure.

Metals on Scadrial aren't Invested unless they are Godmetals. They're just used to obtain and/or hold Investiture, depending on the Metallic Art. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/270-the-hero-of-ages-annotations/#e7708

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Thirty-Eight

Preservation's Power

All right, so maybe I lied about there only being three magic systems in this book. It comes down to how you term the powers of Preservation and Ruin, who kind of blanket the entire system. There are a lot of things going on here, and—well, the truth is I don't want to mention all of them, for fear of spoiling future books. However, I'll give you a few rules to apply.

First, to these forces, energy and mass are the same thing. So, their power can take physical shape—as Preservation's did in the bead of metal Elend ate. Second, there is a bit of Preservation inside of all the people—and it's this that allows the people to perform Allomancy. It needs to be awakened and stirred to be of use, but when it is, a proper metal can draw forth more of Preservation's power. It's like the metal attunes the bit within the person, allowing it to act as a catalyst to grab more power.

Allomancy is not fueled by metal; it is fueled by Preservation. The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn't be needed.

Preservation's touch on people differs. Some have more, some have less. This doesn't make them better or worse people—indeed, some most touched by Preservation have been among the worst people in the world. As Ruin later points out, there is a difference between being evil and being destructive.

Regardless, if a person can get more Preservation into them, they become better Allomancers. Hence Elend becoming a Mistborn. Like all people, he had the potential within him—it was just too small of a potential to be awakened through normal means. That little jolt of Preservation's body, however, expanded and awakened his Allomancy.

As a tidbit, that was a side effect of what that bead of metal did. It wasn't the main purpose of the bead, and if another Allomancer were to burn it, it would do something else.

And, I'm guessing the reason they glow in the CR is because of Scadrial's interaction between Investiture, the SR, and metals.

I was under the impression that Metalsight sensed Connections to axi, but we do see in BoM that strong enough Metalsight can allow you to see- and possibly interact with- souls/Investiture, so I think there's merit to your theory. Metalsight might just be a different flavor, perhaps weaker under normal conditions. 

Edited January 28, 2025 by Trusk'our

[AlmightyGir]

Glad it wasn't complete nonsense then

[ChickenBonanza]

On 1/27/2025 at 9:04 AM, Quantus said:

Alternatively, it could be that this was always within the rules of Hemalurgy. Perhaps it's always been that you can Rip Spiritwebs with Bindpionts and Any object capable of Investiture Storage, and Scadrial simply only ever knew about Metal as an option. Who knows, maybe a spiked rock covered in White Sand microbes could work, or maybe some prepared AonDor object could do it too (Im drawing a blank on any other options offhand, but we know Gems and Metals are special in general).

My interpretation is that Hemalurgy is Ruin’s Invested Art that arose from his Investing of Scadrial, upon which Invested Arts present through the focus of metal. If you aren’t using metal to enact Hemalurgy… then you aren’t. It’s related, yes, but not Hemalurgy.

Bindpoints and Spiritweb stealing seem to be fundamental thing. Bindpoints being certain points in every being that allow for insertion of Investiture or whatever. Hemalurgy is special because it can be achieved with a completely mundane piece of metal, thanks to Ruin’s interactions with Scadrial. If Ruin ever left Scadrial, Hemalurgy could very well stop working.

Other objects, using other systems like AonDor or an Awakened object with instructions to steal Investiture through Bindpoints could very easily replicate Hemalurgy’s whole Spiritweb-theft.(Though Nalthian Awakening, Endowment-derived, would probably not be best suited to this task.) White Sand microbes wouldn’t be able to, I think. What do those goobers know about thievery? They just drink people’s spit and fly around a bit.

…Gemalurgy, or perhaps Rosharan Hemalurgy, if we wish to pay tribute towards our first exposure to Bindpoint-related magic, is likely to be very different from Hemalurgy.

Thing is, the theft of a portion of a Spiritweb could very well not be necessary. It could be very like a fabrial, trapping a spren or Investiture otherwise instructed to perform a specific function, and forcing them to express that function. Have we not seen spren of Odium specialized in the seeking out of Investiture, even if only kinetic sources? Inserting that coded piece of Investiture into a Spiritweb is accomplished by the piercing its physical container through a Bindpoint.

Or, it could be the case that the stealing of Investiture was also used. However, in this case, one cannot simply stab a man with a sliver of diamond and expect that to work. There is no Shard to power such an interaction as there is with Ruin and metal. Instead, something must of either stolen a portion of a Spiritweb and transferred it to the diamond, or have Invested the diamond with the function to steal a portion of a Spiritweb. In this case, a Sighted seems like the perfect candidate. Maybe even multiple, stuffed into the same apparatus. Spooky.

Edited January 28, 2025 by ChickenBonanza

[AlmightyGir]

@ChickenBonanzaThe word Hemalurgy (a fictional word) means "Working with Blood", Hema = blood, Lurgy = working. Similar to Metallurgy (a real word) means "to work with metal".

If Hemalurgy were specific to metals, it would be called Metallurgy. It's not, it's specific to moving blood from one person/being to another via an invested object, the act of which tears part of the spiritweb of the first person and pins it to the second.

[ChickenBonanza]

1 hour ago, AlmightyGir said:

If Hemalurgy were specific to metals, it would be called Metallurgy. It's not, it's specific to moving blood from one person/being to another via an invested object, the act of which tears part of the spiritweb of the first person and pins it to the second.

I do not believe the in-world name for an Invested Art has any bearing on its mechanics. (It may be named according or relating to its function, yes, but to consider it as perfect? Gospel for all its intricacies? No.)

I believe that the Invested Arts of Scadrial, the Metallic Arts, function how they do because of the Shards that Invest Scadrial. Both the Shard and the Scadrial’s Realmatic Focus (or whatever the term is) influence how the Metallic Arts function. Scadrial’s being metal.

If a different Shard came to Invest on Scadrial, the Invested Art they would spawn would also have metals as a key part of its function.

By this reasoning, to use a material that is not metal to attempt ‘Hemalurgy’ could not act as the focus through which Ruin’s power acts. It could not steal other Invested Arts or human attributes. Not to say that such a thing is simply impossible. Any material, theoretically could perform the same function as Hemalurgy, but that would require more effort than ‘Hemalurgy with a stabby bit of metal’ does.

One could expand the definition of ‘Hemalurgy’ to something along the lines of ‘stealing portions of a Spiritweb through the piercing of Bind Points with a material that is then Invested by that stolen Spiritweb.’ In that case, differentiations would have to be made as to how that occurred. By a material inscribed with Aons, channeling the Dor? Such a thing is distinct from the Hemalurgy we see on Scadrial, in my eyes.

Edited January 29, 2025 by ChickenBonanza

[Through the Living Wrath he/him]

15 hours ago, AlmightyGir said:

I don't think the gems need to be perfect at all, in fact Moash was described as having the gems growing out the top of his head, wasn't he? It's possible that the gems used in this instance didn't look the way they do now when the process started.

On the note of Ironsight vs sprensight... I would be willing to bet that they are essentially the same thing, and that Ironsight is actually the lesser version of it. They both see investiture. Metals in Scadrial all seem to be invested in some small way, you burn them to gain access to the investiture they hold. So I think Ironsight is just a method of viewing investiture, and on Scadrial, metals are invested enough to be seen in this way.

That of course, doesn't explain why it can't see invested people. A small hole in the theory, to be sure.

I think that Ironsight sees into the SR

while Sprensight sees into the CR, ya know?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 12/17/2024 at 11:24 AM, Blackroot said:

My read of this was that, because ruin and preservation made Scadrial, the metal of Scadrial is imbued with investiture. Different metals are encoded with different abilities, similar to how honor encoded oaths with surges, hence why iron spikes are needed for inquisitor eyes. This would also explain why iron eyes see metal, when crystal eyes see investiture.

I need to point out that we've never seen a Steel Inquisitor in a situation where he could see Spren.

Secondly, awakened objects apparently can see.

On 1/27/2025 at 3:04 PM, Quantus said:

Alternatively, it could be that this was always within the rules of Hemalurgy. Perhaps it's always been that you can Rip Spiritwebs with Bindpionts and Any object capable of Investiture Storage, and Scadrial simply only ever knew about Metal as an option. Who knows, maybe a spiked rock covered in White Sand microbes could work, or maybe some prepared AonDor object could do it too (Im drawing a blank on any other options offhand, but we know Gems and Metals are special in general).  

Hemalurgy has two steps

1. Charging the spike by human sacrifice
2. altering a spirit web by sticking it into the correct bind point

It is unclear whether Battah has replicated both steps. In fact, Moash's spikes glowed with Voidlight. Why would spiking a human fill a gemstone with Voidlight? In fact why would you go for human sacrifice at all, knowing that some organisms have gemhearts?

It seems to me that Battah has recreated a primitive equivalent of Hemalurgy, which allows the most basic function of hemalurgy, instead of transfering powers.

[elihaun]

On 1/27/2025 at 9:04 AM, Quantus said:

 Who knows, maybe a spiked rock covered in White Sand microbes could work, or maybe some prepared AonDor object could do it too (Im drawing a blank on any other options offhand, but we know Gems and Metals are special in general).  

Not sure if Brandon has been asked this, but what would happen if you made glass from white sand?  Would it be regular glass, or would it be invested? That might have interesting implications, because the steel inquisitors used glass daggers and were better than most at seeking

Also, how about an AonDor drawn onto a regular metal spike? or the things that turn people into cinders in sunlit man? or any awakened object (like... not nightblood, but something with just a little breath?) 

[Through the Living Wrath he/him]

2 minutes ago, elihaun said:

Not sure if Brandon has been asked this, but what would happen if you made glass from white sand?  Would it be regular glass, or would it be invested? That might have interesting implications, because the steel inquisitors used glass daggers and were better than most at seeking

Also, how about an AonDor drawn onto a regular metal spike? or the things that turn people into cinders in sunlit man? or any awakened object (like... not nightblood, but something with just a little breath?) 

The sand itself is not invested - there is a life form on the sand that is invested.

I think.

[Treamayne]

6 minutes ago, SpiritOfWrath said:

The sand itself is not invested - there is a life form on the sand that is invested.

I think.

Yes, the Lichen living on the sand is what absorbs the Investiture of AisDa. From the Omnibus Ars Arcanum:

Spoiler

The more I study sand mastery, the more I see connections to the Starcarved of Darkside. The sun invests some kind of power into the lichen on the sand, similar to how the particulate cloud sends out a weekly pulse that invests power into our starmarks, even if only some chosen seem to be able to access that power.

Hope that helps

[Quantus he/him]

1 minute ago, elihaun said:

Not sure if Brandon has been asked this, but what would happen if you made glass from white sand?  Would it be regular glass, or would it be invested? That might have interesting implications, because the steel inquisitors used glass daggers and were better than most at seeking

Also, how about an AonDor drawn onto a regular metal spike? or the things that turn people into cinders in sunlit man? or any awakened object (like... not nightblood, but something with just a little breath?) 

WOB says the White Sand has invested Microbes growing on it that provides the functions, so it's not the sand minerals itself. So it can be cultivated if a sample is imported, and it probably doesnt need to be sand shaped specifically, but it's a living layer on the sand substrate and not the mineral itself.  

[AlmightyGir]

15 hours ago, ChickenBonanza said:

I do not believe the in-world name for an Invested Art has any bearing on its mechanics. (It may be named according or relating to its function, yes, but to consider it as perfect? Gospel for all its intricacies? No.)

I believe that the Invested Arts of Scadrial, the Metallic Arts, function how they do because of the Shards that Invest Scadrial. Both the Shard and the Scadrial’s Realmatic Focus (or whatever the term is) influence how the Metallic Arts function. Scadrial’s being metal.

If a different Shard came to Invest on Scadrial, the Invested Art they would spawn would also have metals as a key part of its function.

By this reasoning, to use a material that is not metal to attempt ‘Hemalurgy’ could not act as the focus through which Ruin’s power acts. It could not steal other Invested Arts or human attributes. Not to say that such a thing is simply impossible. Any material, theoretically could perform the same function as Hemalurgy, but that would require more effort than ‘Hemalurgy with a stabby bit of metal’ does.

One could expand the definition of ‘Hemalurgy’ to something along the lines of ‘stealing portions of a Spiritweb through the piercing of Bind Points with a material that is then Invested by that stolen Spiritweb.’ In that case, differentiations would have to be made as to how that occurred. By a material inscribed with Aons, channeling the Dor? Such a thing is distinct from the Hemalurgy we see on Scadrial, in my eyes.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/105/#e1265
 

Brandon himself says that blood in motion is required for Hemalurgy. Which makes it a safe assumption as to its naming.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

On 1/29/2025 at 6:47 PM, AlmightyGir said:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/105/#e1265
 

Brandon himself says that blood in motion is required for Hemalurgy. Which makes it a safe assumption as to its naming.

This WoB doesnt sais it is required. Just it is part of, but may not be necesery part. Considering fact his answer to the question about Hemalurgy and AI was RAFO, I think we can see Hemalurgic Computers one day.