Theory: Adonalsium is Nohadon AND willingly "shattered"

[Calten_Gnomercy]

I’ve fallen into the group that believes the Iriali are the missing yellow color of Virtuosity that we see in Yumi where the heon lines are purple and teal. I believe there is a WoB mentioning that there IS. Yellow aspect of Virtuosity in the Cosmere.

 

i love the theory-crafting of who Nohadon is, but while everything others have said makes sense to me in and out of context, I keep coming back to his mannerisms that we see in the various visions.

He seems like a very “Reasonable” person, doesn’t he? I would love to hear some thoughts on why he wouldn’t be considered for Reason…

Also, do we know who Sixteen is yet? The man hiding in Lasting Integrity?

[Argenti he/him]

17 hours ago, Calten_Gnomercy said:

Also, do we know who Sixteen is yet? The man hiding in Lasting Integrity?

Not much. He's from scadrial. He's not keliser. Beyond that.... uh? Who knows? People think he's using cadmium.

17 hours ago, Calten_Gnomercy said:

He seems like a very “Reasonable” person, doesn’t he? I would love to hear some thoughts on why he wouldn’t be considered for Reason…

I see no Reason he's not. People just have hyperfixated on Valor since she's missing in a way odium doesn't understand, and roshar is a pretty battle torn place. Valor could be the irali, or reason could! 

[Letryx13]

I like this idea.

It's possible that Nohadon simply managed to get Dalinar in and out of the vision because Taravangian is still new to the power, but I've posted before that I think Adonalsium is still alive.  We still don't really know what scared Rayse so much when Dalinar spoke his third ideal.  According to Cultivation, she'd only seen him frighted one other time, presumably when Rayse and Tanavast clashed over the shattered plains.

I'd still very much like to know who the "we" is in "We killed you! We killed you!", but I think he's referring to the sixteen original vessels slaying Adonalsium.  If a Nohadon like character makes a spiritual realm vision for someone else in the future, I think it would fit.

[Marie74]

On 12/13/2024 at 3:57 PM, herold_of_dogs said:

Theory: Adonalsium is Nohadon and willingly "shattered"

Just some thoughts after reading the Wind and Truth about Adonalsium. Curious about your thoughts, not saying this is bullet-proof.

About the Shattering

We know that Adonalsium existed before the Cosmere and created all things (source). We can assume that he could see the future like the Shards and possibly have even greater omniescence and omnipresence.

 

What was he like? Why did the 16 go with the plot to kill him? Some wanted power but some were genuinely good people to whom it seemed like the only option left. I hypothesize that he was a "micromanaging" God albeit with good intentions. This led to a level of intrusion into the mortal affairs that people found unacceptable - they wanted free choice.

The on the nose explanation of what happened is that the 16 who shattered Adonalsium outsmarted and killed him. This seems suspect to me given his own omniescence and power.

The alternative I propose is that Ado reflected on the reasons of the people wanting to kill him and found some of them valid. He questioned his role up to that point in the affairs of Cosmere and allowed himself to be shattered.

Where's Ado

Adonalsium stepped down from ruling the Cosmere by letting himself be shattered. But he didn't "die" in the process,The assassination was an impetus for him to self-reflect on his role in the Cosmere. He went from being a micromanaging God (like Old Testament God) to a "wise witness" God (like New Testament / Christian God).

My guess is also that he is not powerless after Shattering but being the all-powerful Cosmic Creator and source of everything, by being Shattered, he simply willingly invested the Vessels with his power through Shards (like Honor invested the Heralds) and could reclaim that power at any moment should he choose to (well that was my guess, I don't think anything in the text supports that strongly. Thanks @wormotif for pointing out why it's unlikely. On the other hand Nohadon = Ado seems to have a lot of evidence in the text). But he wants to let his people rule themselves now (like Nohadon did for a time) and listen instead.

This parallels the human king Nohadon's personal journey and reflections on ruling and his reflections in Way of Kings are applicable to the human king as well as the cosmic deity.

Nohadon in Wind and Truth visions is Adonalsium

Note: Nohadon = No-h-Adon = No-Lord (No = negation as in English, Adon = Lord in Hebrew).

 

In Wind and Truth Dalinar encounters Nohadon in his visions of the Spiritual Realm. This entity pulls him out of his final encounter with the god Todium without the god noticing anything. That’s a pretty big sign that he’s at least a Shard level power. It could be Dalinar’s mind itself but Nohadon doesn’t seem to be a figment of Dalinar’s imagination. He serves him buttered bread which Dalinar has never eaten before so has no way of imagining it. Dalinar seems to come to the same conclusion:

 

So if he’s a different Shard+ level power then which one? Possible Shard candidates are Reason and Valor about whose location we know little. But Nohadon's advice (to the degree that he explicitly even offers any) is very balanced and rings with wisdom. While we’ve seen that a Vessel can overpower a Shard’s intent I’d expect at least some of that itent to shine through in an extended conversation and I didn’t notice any Reason or Valor impulses here. Additionally, if we look at the actual life of the king Nohadon and his book The Way of Kings - the argument that he would be one of these Vessels grows very weak. He doesn’t write like a person guided by an extreme of a single Intent but rather with a wise balance.

There is only one other being with this power level that we know of - he is some part of Adonalsium himself. We’ve seen in the book that there are parts of him that remain - the Wind, Stone and Night on Roshar. So it’s not unthinkable this could be another "part" of him - potentially the primary part. And note that we do not know how powerful that could be.

Is king Nohadon the same being as vision Nohadon?

If so, that would make him Adonalsium incarnate. Did (some part of) Ado decide to incarnate in Roshar to learn more about mortal lives? Did he make himself forget his godly nature for a time or was he aware of it?

Or was the king Nohadon simply a human king who reached similar conclusions to ruling that Ado did. I am inclined towards them being the same entity.

Some text evidence for king No-h-Adon = Adonalsium

 

 

On first reading these words they refer to Nohadon's journey by foot when he deserted his kingship for a time. But they seem even more relevant to a God recognizing the day to walk away and abandoning his throne and gifting his people with his absence so that they grow to solve their own problems.

Who better for Tanavast (a god) to study than the actual God?

 

 

Dalinar shares a meal (bread with butter) with Nohadon in his final vision before Dalinar abdicates the power of Honor. Nohadon also doesn't say who he is even though Dalinar explicitly asks him (see next quotation). He lets Dalinar pass with two lies.

 

 

Nohadon asks Dalinar to consider what "Nohadon" would do in Dalinar's situation (being in possesion of divine powers but unsure of how to apply them for the good of everyone). Later, Dalinar seems to follow Nohadon's unspoken advice and abdicates his divine powers. Just like I suggest Adonalsium did (and the king Nohadon did for a time).

In a subsequent paragraph, Dalinar (and the reader) questions the king's identity - implying he might not be who he "obviously" seems to be.

After that Dalinar notes he doesn't feel like a god but a man talking to another man. In what situation would Dalinar (a god) feel this way? Maybe when talking to another god / God.

When Taravangian tries to claim Dalinar's soul before it passes into the Beyond, he is denied. The being that Dalinar interacts with seems to be the most likely candidate by whom he is claimed (thanks @adouloumis for pointing this out).

Finally, let's consider this Tanavast's stream-of-consiousness when he begins to question the actions he's taken as a deity:

 

Tanavast asks the Wind (a part of Adonalsium) what he should do. It tells him to listen. He stops micromanaging (leading, organizing, pushing) and for the first time in his divine existence it all start to make sense. He is needed as a witness. They might be better off without him. Could Adonalsium have come to a similar conclusion?

Note that while compared with Tanavast, the Wind still considers Adonalsium to have been a caring God but it's possible to have an overbearing and still well-intentioned caring God.

I also want to shine a light on this part of the above quote:

 

At first glance it is just another in the enumeration of random individuals Tanavast witnesses (the woman milking hogs, the child, the scholar, the wanderer) but it has a double meaning - Tanavast is also a wanderer on a god's journey and unwittingly walks the same path of listening that No-h-Adon has taken up after the Shattering.

Thanks for reading, looking forward to your thoughts.

This is exactly my theory. I thought it when Dalinar 1)felt another warm light in a vision of his childhood which I believe is in WoK and 2)when he had the vision of going to market with Noadon and it was so clear that this vision was not from Honor—these led Dalinar to believe that the Shards were not God, but there was something beyond that was, indeed, “God.” This is a deep theme through all of SA and this final conversation in WaT adds powerfully to this theory (and you lay out the textual evidence.)

Ive read some SA analysis and theory-crafting and I think most of it misses the very clear spiritual imagery, Christian philosophy and lens and the deepest story here which is about the spiritual evolution of the characters. One great theological question is—does God change? Can God learn? Does Gods relationship with God’s creation change God? Is it a relationship? Or is it tyranny? Sandersons Cosmere seems to me, on a deep level, to be an exploration of these questions. 
 

so, yes, I think Dalinar is talking to an aspect of Adon or the God Beyond in his final vision. It’s not Noadon, the human king. It’s an avatar for Dalinar to relate to so that he can have the experience that makes sense for Dalinar. 

[Hoid fan club member]

Just an interesting thought for future developments…

There was mention of Syl and Kal taking the copy of Way of Kings as well, as Kal was drawn to the writings… could be a future connection point for Nohadon vision in the future

[Gildedorca]

I continued on my way, contemplating dust and the nature of desertion. For I, as king, had walked away from my duties, and it was different for me. Had I not renounced a throne the Almighty had granted, and in so doing, undermined my own words? Was I abandoning that which was divinely given me? I do not have answers, and there will always be some who denounce me for this decision I made. But let me teach a truth here that is often misunderstood: sometimes, it is not weakness, but strength, to stand up and walk away. So think, my dear reader. As a soldier retreats from a battle he cannot win. As a woman rejects a home that shows her only violence. As a family finds hope in walking away from dying fields during a sesason of too much rain. As a king leaves a people with the gift of his absence, so that they may grow and solve their own problems, without his hand to always guide them. May you have the courage someday to walk away. And the wisdom to recognize that day when it arrives.

Excerpts from the Way of Kings written by Nohadon (WaT 245 - 295)

I can see two interpretations of this quote. First, the focus on courage to give up, walk away strongly signals Valor. But, another way to look at this quote is that it is signaling some of the Shards at the end (see this list) which could be pointing towards Adonalsium, as you've argued, accepting the Shattering as necessary.

• As a soldier retreats from a battle he cannot win- Reason
• As a woman rejects a home that shows her only violence- Autonomy
• As a family finds hope in walking away- Valor
• As a king leaves a people with the gift of his absence- Endowment
• so that they may grow and solve their own problems- Invention
• without his hand to always guide them- Cultivation

Overall, I could see the argument being that Valor was given up and now is unclaimed.

[EnviableAres]

On 1/6/2025 at 9:06 PM, Marie74 said:

This is exactly my theory. I thought it when Dalinar 1)felt another warm light in a vision of his childhood which I believe is in WoK and 2)when he had the vision of going to market with Noadon and it was so clear that this vision was not from Honor—these led Dalinar to believe that the Shards were not God, but there was something beyond that was, indeed, “God.” This is a deep theme through all of SA and this final conversation in WaT adds powerfully to this theory (and you lay out the textual evidence.)

Ive read some SA analysis and theory-crafting and I think most of it misses the very clear spiritual imagery, Christian philosophy and lens and the deepest story here which is about the spiritual evolution of the characters. One great theological question is—does God change? Can God learn? Does Gods relationship with God’s creation change God? Is it a relationship? Or is it tyranny? Sandersons Cosmere seems to me, on a deep level, to be an exploration of these questions. 
 

so, yes, I think Dalinar is talking to an aspect of Adon or the God Beyond in his final vision. It’s not Noadon, the human king. It’s an avatar for Dalinar to relate to so that he can have the experience that makes sense for Dalinar. 

Also we can think about what happened on Scadrial with preservation once he seen he was beaten. If my understanding is correctly, he willingly gave up his shard and his life to imprison ruin in the well of Ascension. Alongside Dalinar giving up honor. It's not unheard of a vessel giving up power so I don't see why Ado couldn't have willingly given up and allowed the shards to be shattered because he seen it was the better option.