Gildedorca
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Analysis of the dawnshards with new information
Gildedorca replied to Dofurion's topic in Cosmere Discussion
I agree that's a better match for the metals, but it seems odd to move Odium from "Feel" to "Act", and Ambition from "Act" to "Feel". Perhaps another term for the Dawnshards? Alternatively, perhaps some Shards are incorrectly sorted? I'm not sure about the actual groupings, but I do agree with the logic of 12+4 and the Jungian influence on the Shard divisions. -
Analysis of the dawnshards with new information
Gildedorca replied to Dofurion's topic in Cosmere Discussion
The WOB goes on, but I think the key here is the Shards representing aspects of personality. Another thread by u/TheoreticalMagic points out the overlap between the Dawnshards and Jungian personality attitudes- which then have 12 (not 16) corresponding archetypes. Roughly, there are 4 fundamental attitudes of psyche which are divided into three aspects ego, self, and soul. Together that produces 12 archetypes. Likely that BS followed a similar process with the Dawnshards, even basing them on the attitudes- spiritual growth, creating/leaving a mark, guiding/providing structure, and connecting to others. The strong evidence is that the Jungian mandala representing this split is a near 1:1 match to the Dawnshard chart. So I would agree we should approach the Shards as 4+12- Four fundamental Shards aligned to the Dawnshards (mono-affected), then 12 bi-affected. Each bi-affected should come in a set of three which correspond to the physical/mental/spiritual division of the Cosmere and Metallic Arts chart, matching the grouping of Jungian archetypes in the mandala. Ideally the 12 "bi-affected" would match the Aethers. For example using how you've sorted the Shards: EXIST- Preservation (mono-affected), Autonomy (physical), Reason (mental), Mercy (spiritual); corresponding Jungian attitude "providing structure" CHANGE- Ruin (mono-affected), Invention (physical), Virtuosity (mental), Cultivation (spiritual); corresponding Jungian attitude "leaving a mark" FEEL- Odium (mono-affected), Valor (physical), Whimsy (mental), Devotion (spiritual); corresponding Jungian attitude "spiritual and emotional growth" ACT- Honor (mono-affected), Dominion (physical), Ambition (mental), Endowment (spiritual); corresponding Jungian attitude "connecting to others" -
Adonalsium's Aspects as Archetypes (A Jungian Theory)
Gildedorca replied to TheoreticalMagic's topic in Cosmere Discussion
This makes a lot of sense, especially if Brandon is aware of and versed in these archetypes. Perhaps he just added an extra four because the math worked better. However, it's still imperfect alignment. For example, is Preservation more 'providing structure' or 'EXIST'. If anything, he likely borrowed from this, but came up with his own archetypes. What's more interesting are the shadow archetypes- almost akin to anti-light- and there are are a few that match our Shards. The jester becomes a hater and the ruler becomes a tyrant. Or innovation and artistry become... destruction and Ruin. Playin with the diagram you've shared... "Provide Structure" = ¿guide? Endowment- Service/Caregiver/Slave Dominion- Control/Ruler/Tyrant Invention- Innovation/Artist/Destroyer Preservation "Spiritual Journey" = ¿believe? Mercy- Innocent/Safety/Victim Reason- Knowledge/Sage/Elitist Autonomy- Freedom/Explorer/Raider Cultivation "Connect to Others" = EXIST Devotion- Intimacy/ Lover/Seducer Odium- Pleasure/Jester/Hater Virtuosity- Belonging/ Everyman/Follower Honor "Leave a Mark" = CHANGE Ambition- Liberation/Outlaw/Criminal Whimsy- Power/Magician/Trickster Valor- Mastery/Hero/Villan Ruin -
Theory: Adonalsium is Nohadon AND willingly "shattered"
Gildedorca replied to herold_of_dogs's topic in Cosmere Discussion
I continued on my way, contemplating dust and the nature of desertion. For I, as king, had walked away from my duties, and it was different for me. Had I not renounced a throne the Almighty had granted, and in so doing, undermined my own words? Was I abandoning that which was divinely given me? I do not have answers, and there will always be some who denounce me for this decision I made. But let me teach a truth here that is often misunderstood: sometimes, it is not weakness, but strength, to stand up and walk away. So think, my dear reader. As a soldier retreats from a battle he cannot win. As a woman rejects a home that shows her only violence. As a family finds hope in walking away from dying fields during a sesason of too much rain. As a king leaves a people with the gift of his absence, so that they may grow and solve their own problems, without his hand to always guide them. May you have the courage someday to walk away. And the wisdom to recognize that day when it arrives. Excerpts from the Way of Kings written by Nohadon (WaT 245 - 295) I can see two interpretations of this quote. First, the focus on courage to give up, walk away strongly signals Valor. But, another way to look at this quote is that it is signaling some of the Shards at the end (see this list) which could be pointing towards Adonalsium, as you've argued, accepting the Shattering as necessary. As a soldier retreats from a battle he cannot win- Reason As a woman rejects a home that shows her only violence- Autonomy As a family finds hope in walking away- Valor As a king leaves a people with the gift of his absence- Endowment so that they may grow and solve their own problems- Invention without his hand to always guide them- Cultivation Overall, I could see the argument being that Valor was given up and now is unclaimed. -
Copying over from another post on this topic. I think your theory is headed in the right direction- if we go back to the allomantic metals, there's physical, temporal, mental, and spiritual grouping of metals which could be the suggestion from Preservation about the exisitence of four Dawnshards, similar to how the 16 is a reference to the 16 Shards. I'm not certain if there is good evidence that the Dawnshards correspond to each grouping of metals or strictly the spiritual components. What you've argued leads me to think that instead of the "plus Investiture" it's actually four spiritual properties- Intent, Fortune, Connection, and Identity with each related to one Dawnshard (and potentially a group of the allomantic metals). I say that because a key component of magic in the Cosmere is Intent, similar to Fortune or Connection. Each would correspond to a fundamental aspect of the Cosmere (time, space, etc). In other words (drawing on the terms in the Allomantic chart and attributes of the Nahel bond): Dawnshard 1 [PROTECT]- Connection, Physical; related to the "UNITE" that we hear from Dalinar, binding People/not harming others. Protecting, leading etc. Held at one point by Hoid and Sigzil. Dawnshard 2 [CHANGE]- Fortune, Temporal; related to transformation, growth, and healing. Held by Rysn. Dawnshard 3 [unk.]- Intent, Mental; related to learning, experience, determination, bravery, and creativity. Perhaps THINK/ EXPLORE/ UNDERSTAND? Dawnshard 4 [unk.]- Identity, Spiritual; related to self-determination, autonomy, honesty, and emotions. Perhaps FEEL/ BELIEVE/ ABIDE? And I assume that no Dawnshard would contain two "opposite" Shards. So we would have: Dawnshard 1 [PROTECT]- Connection, Physical; related to the "UNITE" that we hear from Dalinar. Held by Hoid and Sigzil. Preservation- Wants to keep everything the same, has wanted all be frozen in time, unable to act lest they harm one another. Likely Protect/Protect. Dominion- probably was related to amassing and maintaining control over others. Likely Protect/Change. Honor- said to uphold oaths and agreements, and to bind things together. Likely Protect/ DS3. Mercy- unknown. Likely Protect/ DS4. Dawnshard 2 [CHANGE]- Fortune, Temporal; related to transformation, growth and decay. Held by Rysn. Ruin- the manifestation of entropy. Likely Change/Change. Endowment- related to bestowing gifts or talents upon others. Likely Change/DS3. Whimsy- unknown. Likely Change/DS4. Cultivation- to grow things and people, and prune them if need be, to shape them in a desired form. Likely Change/Protect. Dawnshard 3 [unk.]- Intent, Mental; related to learning, experience, determination, bravery, and creativity Virtuosity- concerns artistic intent, and artistic talent, and artistic appreciation. Shattered themself to experience more. Likely DS3/DS3. Ambition- related to seeking to change/improve oneself. Likely DS3/DS4. Valour- the bravery of God/ willingness to sacrifice themself. Mental fortitude. Likely DS3/Protect Invention- unknown. Likely DS3/Change. Dawnshard 4 [unk.]- Identity, Spiritual; related to self-determination, autonomy, honesty, and emotions. Autonomy- driven to divide, go their own way. Rewards those who are bold, who survive against the odds. Likely DS4/DS4. Devotion- has been stated to be God's love. Likely DS4/Protect. Odium- said to be the vengeful anger of God, self-described as passion. Likely DS4/Change. Prudence- wants to be left alone and away from the coming conflicts. Knowledge of when to act. Likely DS4/DS3. Though I'm not convinced with the groupings- some of the pairings didn't match the Dawnshard, so I had to take some liberties. It's unclear what constitutes a true opposite other than Ruin/Preservation and Virtuosity/ Autonomy pairings. Parings between Shards influenced by the same two Dawnshards, which could be an argument for Shards with aligned intents, not opposites. Dominion - Cultivation Honor - Valour Mercy - Devotion Endowment - Invention Whimsy - Odium Ambition - Prudence
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I think your theory is headed in the right direction- if we go back to the allomantic metals, there's physical, temporal, mental, and spiritual grouping of metals which could be the suggestion from Preservation about the exisitence of four Dawnshards, similar to how the 16 is a reference to the 16 Shards. I'm not certain if there is good evidence that the Dawnshards correspond to each grouping of metals or strictly the spiritual components. What you've argued leads me to think that instead of the "plus Investiture" it's actually four spiritual properties- Intent, Fortune, Connection, and Identity with each related to one Dawnshard (and potentially a group of the allomantic metals). I say that because a key component of magic in the Cosmere is Intent, similar to Fortune or Connection. In other words (drawing on the terms in the Allomantic chart and attributes of the Nahel bond): Dawnshard 1 [PROTECT]- Connection, Physical; related to the "UNITE" that we hear from Dalinar, binding People/not harming others. Protecting, leading etc. Held at one point by Hoid and Sigzil. Dawnshard 2 [CHANGE]- Fortune, Temporal; related to transformation, growth, and healing. Held by Rysn. Dawnshard 3 [unk.]- Intent, Mental; related to learning, experience, determination, bravery, and creativity. Perhaps THINK/ EXPLORE/ UNDERSTAND? Dawnshard 4 [unk.]- Identity, Spiritual; related to self-determination, autonomy, honesty, and emotions. Perhaps FEEL/ BELIEVE/ ABIDE? And I assume that no Dawnshard would contain two "opposite" Shards. So with the pairings from @Belgarad and your list of Shards, we would have: Dawnshard 1 [PROTECT]- Connection, Physical; related to the "UNITE" that we hear from Dalinar. Held by Hoid and Sigzil. Preservation- Wants to keep everything the same, has wanted all be frozen in time, unable to act lest they harm one another. Likely Protect/Protect. Dominion- probably was related to amassing and maintaining control over others. Likely Protect/Change. Honor- said to uphold oaths and agreements, and to bind things together. Likely Protect/ DS3. Mercy- unknown. Likely Protect/ DS4. Dawnshard 2 [CHANGE]- Fortune, Temporal; related to transformation, growth and decay. Held by Rysn. Ruin- the manifestation of entropy. Likely Change/Change. Endowment- related to bestowing gifts or talents upon others. Likely Change/DS3. Whimsy- unknown. Likely Change/DS4. Cultivation- to grow things and people, and prune them if need be, to shape them in a desired form. Likely Change/Protect. Dawnshard 3 [unk.]- Intent, Mental; related to learning, experience, determination, bravery, and creativity Virtuosity- concerns artistic intent, and artistic talent, and artistic appreciation. Shattered themself to experience more. Likely DS3/DS3. Ambition- related to seeking to change/improve oneself. Likely DS3/DS4. Valour- the bravery of God/ willingness to sacrifice themself. Mental fortitude. Likely DS3/Protect Invention- unknown. Likely DS3/Change. Dawnshard 4 [unk.]- Identity, Spiritual; related to self-determination, autonomy, honesty, and emotions. Autonomy- driven to divide, go their own way. Rewards those who are bold, who survive against the odds. Likely DS4/DS4. Devotion- has been stated to be God's love. Likely DS4/Protect. Odium- said to be the vengeful anger of God, self-described as passion. Likely DS4/Change. Prudence- wants to be left alone and away from the coming conflicts. Knowledge of when to act. Likely DS4/DS3. Though I'm not convinced with the groupings- some of the pairings didn't match the Dawnshard, so I had to take some liberties. It's unclear what constitutes a true opposite other than Ruin/Preservation and Virtuosity/ Autonomy pairings. Parings between Shards influenced by the same two Dawnshards, which could be an argument for Shards with aligned intents, not opposites. Dominion - Cultivation Honor - Valour Mercy - Devotion Endowment - Invention Whimsy - Odium Ambition - Prudence
