Theory: Adonalsium is Nohadon AND willingly "shattered"

[herold_of_dogs]

Theory: Adonalsium is Nohadon and willingly "shattered"

Just some thoughts after reading the Wind and Truth about Adonalsium. Curious about your thoughts, not saying this is bullet-proof.

About the Shattering

We know that Adonalsium existed before the Cosmere and created all things (source). We can assume that he could see the future like the Shards and possibly have even greater omniescence and omnipresence.

Quote

HERE IN THIS WORLD I FOUND PERFECTION, A RELIC OF THE BEING I HAD SLAIN FOR HIS OWN GOOD.

(Tanavast, WaT 979)

What was he like? Why did the 16 go with the plot to kill him? Some wanted power but some were genuinely good people to whom it seemed like the only option left. I hypothesize that he was a "micromanaging" God albeit with good intentions. This led to a level of intrusion into the mortal affairs that people found unacceptable - they wanted free choice.

The on the nose explanation of what happened is that the 16 who shattered Adonalsium outsmarted and killed him. This seems suspect to me given his own omniescence and power.

The alternative I propose is that Ado reflected on the reasons of the people wanting to kill him and found some of them valid. He questioned his role up to that point in the affairs of Cosmere and allowed himself to be shattered.

Where's Ado

Adonalsium stepped down from ruling the Cosmere by letting himself be shattered. But he didn't "die" in the process,The assassination was an impetus for him to self-reflect on his role in the Cosmere. He went from being a micromanaging God (like Old Testament God) to a "wise witness" God (like New Testament / Christian God).

My guess is also that he is not powerless after Shattering but being the all-powerful Cosmic Creator and source of everything, by being Shattered, he simply willingly invested the Vessels with his power through Shards (like Honor invested the Heralds) and could reclaim that power at any moment should he choose to (well that was my guess, I don't think anything in the text supports that strongly. Thanks @wormotif for pointing out why it's unlikely. On the other hand Nohadon = Ado seems to have a lot of evidence in the text). But he wants to let his people rule themselves now (like Nohadon did for a time) and listen instead.

This parallels the human king Nohadon's personal journey and reflections on ruling and his reflections in Way of Kings are applicable to the human king as well as the cosmic deity.

Nohadon in Wind and Truth visions is Adonalsium

Note: Nohadon = No-h-Adon = No-Lord (No = negation as in English, Adon = Lord in Hebrew).

Quote

“Ha!” Nohadon said, settling down. “A god for less than five minutes, and already you think you control everything.” (WaT 1272)

 

In Wind and Truth Dalinar encounters Nohadon in his visions of the Spiritual Realm. This entity pulls him out of his final encounter with the god Todium without the god noticing anything. That’s a pretty big sign that he’s at least a Shard level power. It could be Dalinar’s mind itself but Nohadon doesn’t seem to be a figment of Dalinar’s imagination. He serves him buttered bread which Dalinar has never eaten before so has no way of imagining it. Dalinar seems to come to the same conclusion:

Quote

Hadn’t he called Dalinar by name? Despite being in a vision of the past? (WaT 1272)

 

So if he’s a different Shard+ level power then which one? Possible Shard candidates are Reason and Valor about whose location we know little. But Nohadon's advice (to the degree that he explicitly even offers any) is very balanced and rings with wisdom. While we’ve seen that a Vessel can overpower a Shard’s intent I’d expect at least some of that itent to shine through in an extended conversation and I didn’t notice any Reason or Valor impulses here. Additionally, if we look at the actual life of the king Nohadon and his book The Way of Kings - the argument that he would be one of these Vessels grows very weak. He doesn’t write like a person guided by an extreme of a single Intent but rather with a wise balance.

There is only one other being with this power level that we know of - he is some part of Adonalsium himself. We’ve seen in the book that there are parts of him that remain - the Wind, Stone and Night on Roshar. So it’s not unthinkable this could be another "part" of him - potentially the primary part. And note that we do not know how powerful that could be.

Is king Nohadon the same being as vision Nohadon?

If so, that would make him Adonalsium incarnate. Did (some part of) Ado decide to incarnate in Roshar to learn more about mortal lives? Did he make himself forget his godly nature for a time or was he aware of it?

Or was the king Nohadon simply a human king who reached similar conclusions to ruling that Ado did. I am inclined towards them being the same entity.

Some text evidence for king No-h-Adon = Adonalsium

 

Quote

I continued on my way, contemplating dust and the nature of desertion. For I, as king, had walked away from my duties, and it was different for me. Had I not renounced a throne the Almighty had granted, and in so doing, undermined my own words? Was I abandoning that which was divinely given me?I do not have answers, and there will always be some who denounce me for this decision I made. But let me teach a truth here that is often misunderstood: sometimes, it is not weakness, but strength, to stand up and walk away.So think, my dear reader. As a soldier retreats from a battle he cannot win. As a woman rejects a home that shows her only violence. As a family finds hope in walking away from dying fields during a sesason of too much rain.As a king leaves a people with the gift of his absence, so that they may grow and solve their own problems, without his hand to always guide them.May you have the courage someday to walk away. And the wisdom to recognize that day when it arrives.

Excerpts from the Way of Kings written by Nohadon (WaT 245 - 295)

 

 

On first reading these words they refer to Nohadon's journey by foot when he deserted his kingship for a time. But they seem even more relevant to a God recognizing the day to walk away and abandoning his throne and gifting his people with his absence so that they grow to solve their own problems.

Quote

HOW CAN YOU NOT WEEP FOR THE FALLEN?
NOHADON’S BOOK. YES… IT HAD BEEN CENTURIES SINCE THAT MAN HAD DIED. SUCH A CURIOUS INDIVIDUAL. PERHAPS I SHOULD HAVE INSISTED THAT HE ACCEPT IMMORTALITY, IF ONLY TO STUDY HIM LONGER…

(Tanavast, WaT 1114)

 

Who better for Tanavast (a god) to study than the actual God?

 

Quote

I let them pass with two lies. First, I dared not tell them this dusty traveler with whom they shared a meal was in fact the very king they had heard of. The second was that I did not explain that very king had abdicated his throne and walked away from his kingdom.

(Nohadon, WaT 177, 189)

 

 

Dalinar shares a meal (bread with butter) with Nohadon in his final vision before Dalinar abdicates the power of Honor. Nohadon also doesn't say who he is even though Dalinar explicitly asks him (see next quotation). He lets Dalinar pass with two lies.

 

Quote

“I have to be strong. I must do as you would do, Nohadon.”
“And what would I do?” the elderly king asked. [note Brandon's emphasizing cursive on I - inviting Dalinar and the reader to ponder whether they know who Nohadon actually is]
...
Dalinar narrowed his eyes at the old king. “Who are you, really?”
…
Dalinar hesitated. In this room, he didn’t feel like a god. He felt like… just a man talking to another man.

(WaT 1272)

 

 

Nohadon asks Dalinar to consider what "Nohadon" would do in Dalinar's situation (being in possesion of divine powers but unsure of how to apply them for the good of everyone). Later, Dalinar seems to follow Nohadon's unspoken advice and abdicates his divine powers. Just like I suggest Adonalsium did (and the king Nohadon did for a time).

In a subsequent paragraph, Dalinar (and the reader) questions the king's identity - implying he might not be who he "obviously" seems to be.

After that Dalinar notes he doesn't feel like a god but a man talking to another man. In what situation would Dalinar (a god) feel this way? Maybe when talking to another god / God.

Quote

You cannot have him, the powers said, for he is claimed by another.

(Wat 1298)

When Taravangian tries to claim Dalinar's soul before it passes into the Beyond, he is denied. The being that Dalinar interacts with seems to be the most likely candidate by whom he is claimed (thanks @adouloumis for pointing this out).

Finally, let's consider this Tanavast's stream-of-consiousness when he begins to question the actions he's taken as a deity:

Quote

I FELT PROFOUNDLY UNWORTHY, FOR THE QUIET PIECE OF MYSELF WAS BECOMING LOUD NOW. THE PIECE THAT KNEW THAT I, AND THE FIFTEEN OTHERS HAD DONE SOMETHING TERRIBLE ON YOLEN.

I RETURNED TO SHINOVAR, THE LAND WHERE HUMANS HAD FIRST ARRIVED. THERE I LAY DOWN IN AN UNCULTIVATED GRASS FIELD, PRETENDING I WAS A BOY BACK ON YOLEN. LOOKING UP AT THE SKY, AND THE CLOUD, AND FEELING…

WHISPRES ON THE BREEZE.

“ADONALSIUM” I WHISPERED?

NOT ENTIRELY, THE BREEZE ANSWERED.

“WIND,” i SAID, “CAN YOU HELP ME?”

NO, THE BREZE SAID.

“WHAT DO I DO?”

LISTEN, IT REPLIED, THEN FADED.

LISTEN. I HAULED MYSELF UP AND, WITH MY DIVINE NATURE, INFUSED THE LAND. PARTS OF ME WERE ALREADY SPREAD THROUGH IT, BUT NOW I LET MYSELF BE THE LAND. LET MY SOUL ALIGN WITH THE RHYTHMS FROM LONG AGO.

AND I LISTENED TO THEM - THE PEOPLE WHOM I SHOULD HAVE LOVED. I WAS WITH THEM AS THEY SLOWLY RECOVERED FROM WAR. 

I LOST MYSELF ENTIRELY IN HEARING THEIR STORIES AS THEY LIVED. THE WOMAN MILKING HER HOGS AND SINGING INTO THE WIND. THE CHILD PLAYING WITH HER AXEHOUNDS UPON STONES THAT LOVED HER. THE SCHOLAR AT WORK STRYING TO UNTANGLE MY SAYING, WRITING AND COMMENTING ABOUT THEM IN TOMES GROWN THICK. THE WANDERER ON A JOURNEY, UNWTTINGLY WALKING THE SAME PATH NOHADON HAD TAKEN.

I STOPPED TRYING TO LEAD, TO ORGANIZE, OR PUSH - AND INSTEAD LISTENED. FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MY DIVINE EXISTENCE, SOME OF IT STARTED TO MAKE SENSE. WHAT I HAD BECOME, WHY I WAS NEEDED - AS A WITNESS.

…

THEY WERE… THEY WERE BETTER OFF WITHOUT ME?

WITHOUT WHAY YOU HAVE BECOME, THE WIND WHISPERED. HAVING NO GOD IS FAR PREFERABLE TO HAVING A HEARTLESS ONE.

AND A GOD WHO CARES?

YOU KILLED THAT GOD.

(Tanavast, WoT 1116)

 

Tanavast asks the Wind (a part of Adonalsium) what he should do. It tells him to listen. He stops micromanaging (leading, organizing, pushing) and for the first time in his divine existence it all start to make sense. He is needed as a witness. They might be better off without him. Could Adonalsium have come to a similar conclusion?

Note that while compared with Tanavast, the Wind still considers Adonalsium to have been a caring God but it's possible to have an overbearing and still well-intentioned caring God.

I also want to shine a light on this part of the above quote:

Quote

THE WANDERER ON A JOURNEY, UNWTTINGLY WALKING THE SAME PATH NOHADON HAD TAKEN.

 

At first glance it is just another in the enumeration of random individuals Tanavast witnesses (the woman milking hogs, the child, the scholar, the wanderer) but it has a double meaning - Tanavast is also a wanderer on a god's journey and unwittingly walks the same path of listening that No-h-Adon has taken up after the Shattering.

Thanks for reading, looking forward to your thoughts.

Edited December 17, 2024 by herold_of_dogs
Updated based on comments.

[adouloumis]

This makes a lot of sense. It also explains why Dalinar is claimed by another.

The parable certainly hides something and it just does not fit Honor like the preWaT spec was thinking. Nohadon is somebody important and powerful enough to hide from Odium. I think think this Ado=Nohadon fits a lot better with Dalinar's journey of becoming a man of God, rather than Nohadon being another Shard.

After we have seen him denouncing Honor and seeing in person Tanavast's folly I would find it weird if Dalinar ended up taking advive from another lower case g god. 

 

[wormotif]

This is a phenomenal theory, and not one I had before. You've mustered almost overwhelming textual evidence in support of Nohadon=Adonalsium, and that the Shattering was voluntary, and I'm convinced. 

That being said, I don't think we can conclude from this that Nohadon/Adonalsium could recall his powers at will - unless I missed it, I don't think the evidence you put forward suggests that.

From a story perspective, Adonalsium recalling his powers and fixing everything at some point in the Cosmere would be very anticlimactic.

And within story, there's a bunch of precedent to suggest that divine power always has a mortal vessel who can step down (Kelsier giving up Preservation, Dalinar giving up Honor, Wit giving up the Dawnshard Exist). But in all these cases the former vessel has no special claim on the power. Since Adonalsium isn't omnipotent (no dominion over the Beyond), it seems reasonable that Adonalsium's former vessel would follow mostly the same rules.

Thoughts?

[Cheapshot]

Similar to your theory. I always believed ADO purposefully shattered allowing himself to be splintered and learn each aspect of himself independently.  Eventually growing new worlds and people. Eventually to be reunited as ado again with a better understanding of himself.  
 

I think ado suffered from being disconnected being the supreme god of the time.  He lost touch with those he was entrusted to watch over.  I also believe ADO has a rival and is not the only magic source in the cosmere 

[Display-Names-Are-Stupid]

An interesting theory! I wondered if the Iriali might be some aspect of Adonalsium spawned post-Shattering to go forth and learn, and then come back together.

In chapter 50 Hoid says "I'm a puppet for raw Investiture, propped up and speaking like the sock on a child's hand. Damn. Is this how the Iriali feel all the time? No wonder they're so storming odd."

He basically insinuates the Iriali are puppets of raw investiture, and they have their big world-hopping quest for the One. Are the Iriali the result of leftover bits of the Shattering? Are they little fragments of Adonalisium that didn't make it into the Shards? And their quest for learning and their journeys to multiple worlds is part of learning how to be a better god?

[DSCrankshaw]

 

59 minutes ago, Display-Names-Are-Stupid said:

An interesting theory! I wondered if the Iriali might be some aspect of Adonalsium spawned post-Shattering to go forth and learn, and then come back together.

In chapter 50 Hoid says "I'm a puppet for raw Investiture, propped up and speaking like the sock on a child's hand. Damn. Is this how the Iriali feel all the time? No wonder they're so storming odd."

He basically insinuates the Iriali are puppets of raw investiture, and they have their big world-hopping quest for the One. Are the Iriali the result of leftover bits of the Shattering? Are they little fragments of Adonalisium that didn't make it into the Shards? And their quest for learning and their journeys to multiple worlds is part of learning how to be a better god?

I thought he was talking more about what the Iriali believe they are, rather than about what they actually are.

I always thought the Iriali religion, that they were all aspects of the One experiencing itself, probably had some merit as an explanation of what happened to Adonalsium. Though I'm not certain that it would apply only to the Iriali. It reminds me also of what the Honorspren said: "Honor is not dead so long as he lives in the hearts of men." And as Wit said in Words of Radiance: "You'll find God in the same place you're going to find salvation from this mess. Inside the hearts of men."

As Wit is probably the person in the Cosmere most likely to know, I think he may have been speaking literally.

Edited December 17, 2024 by DSCrankshaw
Clarified wording.

[herold_of_dogs]

On 12/15/2024 at 1:58 AM, wormotif said:

That being said, I don't think we can conclude from this that Nohadon/Adonalsium could recall his powers at will - unless I missed it, I don't think the evidence you put forward suggests that.

Thanks for the feedback wormotif, I agree that part of the theory is actually not supported by anything in the text I put forward. I think your arguments make sense and there's no need to include it in it. I've removed it from the title and just left a small comment in the post saying that it was just my unsubstantiated guess  .

 

On 12/16/2024 at 7:06 AM, Cheapshot said:

I think ado suffered from being disconnected being the supreme god of the time.  He lost touch with those he was entrusted to watch over.  I also believe ADO has a rival and is not the only magic source in the cosmere 

I definitely agree with the first part. As for Ado's rival - that's very interesting, do you think there is some textual evidence supporting that or is it a guess at this point?

@Display-Names-Are-Stupid The "Iriali Connection" is a great catch, thanks. It certainly seems there might be something divine going on. 

[Immortal Platypus]

On 12/13/2024 at 2:57 PM, herold_of_dogs said:

Theory: Adonalsium is Nohadon and willingly "shattered"

Just some thoughts after reading the Wind and Truth about Adonalsium. Curious about your thoughts, not saying this is bullet-proof.

About the Shattering

We know that Adonalsium existed before the Cosmere and created all things (source). We can assume that he could see the future like the Shards and possibly have even greater omniescence and omnipresence.

 

What was he like? Why did the 16 go with the plot to kill him? Some wanted power but some were genuinely good people to whom it seemed like the only option left. I hypothesize that he was a "micromanaging" God albeit with good intentions. This led to a level of intrusion into the mortal affairs that people found unacceptable - they wanted free choice.

The on the nose explanation of what happened is that the 16 who shattered Adonalsium outsmarted and killed him. This seems suspect to me given his own omniescence and power.

The alternative I propose is that Ado reflected on the reasons of the people wanting to kill him and found some of them valid. He questioned his role up to that point in the affairs of Cosmere and allowed himself to be shattered.

Where's Ado

Adonalsium stepped down from ruling the Cosmere by letting himself be shattered. But he didn't "die" in the process,The assassination was an impetus for him to self-reflect on his role in the Cosmere. He went from being a micromanaging God (like Old Testament God) to a "wise witness" God (like New Testament / Christian God).

My guess is also that he is not powerless after Shattering but being the all-powerful Cosmic Creator and source of everything, by being Shattered, he simply willingly invested the Vessels with his power through Shards (like Honor invested the Heralds) and could reclaim that power at any moment should he choose to (well that was my guess, I don't think anything in the text supports that strongly. Thanks @wormotif for pointing out why it's unlikely. On the other hand Nohadon = Ado seems to have a lot of evidence in the text). But he wants to let his people rule themselves now (like Nohadon did for a time) and listen instead.

This parallels the human king Nohadon's personal journey and reflections on ruling and his reflections in Way of Kings are applicable to the human king as well as the cosmic deity.

Nohadon in Wind and Truth visions is Adonalsium

Note: Nohadon = No-h-Adon = No-Lord (No = negation as in English, Adon = Lord in Hebrew).

 

In Wind and Truth Dalinar encounters Nohadon in his visions of the Spiritual Realm. This entity pulls him out of his final encounter with the god Todium without the god noticing anything. That’s a pretty big sign that he’s at least a Shard level power. It could be Dalinar’s mind itself but Nohadon doesn’t seem to be a figment of Dalinar’s imagination. He serves him buttered bread which Dalinar has never eaten before so has no way of imagining it. Dalinar seems to come to the same conclusion:

 

So if he’s a different Shard+ level power then which one? Possible Shard candidates are Reason and Valor about whose location we know little. But Nohadon's advice (to the degree that he explicitly even offers any) is very balanced and rings with wisdom. While we’ve seen that a Vessel can overpower a Shard’s intent I’d expect at least some of that itent to shine through in an extended conversation and I didn’t notice any Reason or Valor impulses here. Additionally, if we look at the actual life of the king Nohadon and his book The Way of Kings - the argument that he would be one of these Vessels grows very weak. He doesn’t write like a person guided by an extreme of a single Intent but rather with a wise balance.

There is only one other being with this power level that we know of - he is some part of Adonalsium himself. We’ve seen in the book that there are parts of him that remain - the Wind, Stone and Night on Roshar. So it’s not unthinkable this could be another "part" of him - potentially the primary part. And note that we do not know how powerful that could be.

Is king Nohadon the same being as vision Nohadon?

If so, that would make him Adonalsium incarnate. Did (some part of) Ado decide to incarnate in Roshar to learn more about mortal lives? Did he make himself forget his godly nature for a time or was he aware of it?

Or was the king Nohadon simply a human king who reached similar conclusions to ruling that Ado did. I am inclined towards them being the same entity.

Some text evidence for king No-h-Adon = Adonalsium

 

 

On first reading these words they refer to Nohadon's journey by foot when he deserted his kingship for a time. But they seem even more relevant to a God recognizing the day to walk away and abandoning his throne and gifting his people with his absence so that they grow to solve their own problems.

Who better for Tanavast (a god) to study than the actual God?

 

 

Dalinar shares a meal (bread with butter) with Nohadon in his final vision before Dalinar abdicates the power of Honor. Nohadon also doesn't say who he is even though Dalinar explicitly asks him (see next quotation). He lets Dalinar pass with two lies.

 

 

Nohadon asks Dalinar to consider what "Nohadon" would do in Dalinar's situation (being in possesion of divine powers but unsure of how to apply them for the good of everyone). Later, Dalinar seems to follow Nohadon's unspoken advice and abdicates his divine powers. Just like I suggest Adonalsium did (and the king Nohadon did for a time).

In a subsequent paragraph, Dalinar (and the reader) questions the king's identity - implying he might not be who he "obviously" seems to be.

After that Dalinar notes he doesn't feel like a god but a man talking to another man. In what situation would Dalinar (a god) feel this way? Maybe when talking to another god / God.

When Taravangian tries to claim Dalinar's soul before it passes into the Beyond, he is denied. The being that Dalinar interacts with seems to be the most likely candidate by whom he is claimed (thanks @adouloumis for pointing this out).

Finally, let's consider this Tanavast's stream-of-consiousness when he begins to question the actions he's taken as a deity:

 

Tanavast asks the Wind (a part of Adonalsium) what he should do. It tells him to listen. He stops micromanaging (leading, organizing, pushing) and for the first time in his divine existence it all start to make sense. He is needed as a witness. They might be better off without him. Could Adonalsium have come to a similar conclusion?

Note that while compared with Tanavast, the Wind still considers Adonalsium to have been a caring God but it's possible to have an overbearing and still well-intentioned caring God.

I also want to shine a light on this part of the above quote:

 

At first glance it is just another in the enumeration of random individuals Tanavast witnesses (the woman milking hogs, the child, the scholar, the wanderer) but it has a double meaning - Tanavast is also a wanderer on a god's journey and unwittingly walks the same path of listening that No-h-Adon has taken up after the Shattering.

Thanks for reading, looking forward to your thoughts.

I do believe that Ado let himself be Shattered. I think something like that is mentioned in the Tanavast POV, maybe during/right after a conflict w/Odium? Something about how if he (Ado) had fought back, there would be massive destruction throughout the cosmere. We see something similar happen as the results of the Odium/Mercy/Ambition conflict, where several planets were destroyed.

It's an interesting theory, and I like it better than the Nohadon is Valor theory I've seen a couple times.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

Adonalsium sneakily floating around the cosmere as a secret 17th shard? Perhaps invovled in the founding a group by the same name? hmmmmmmm?

[waynegrantham]

Random un-supported thought.
A 4th moon was mentioned.

Crazy theory. What if Valor was Nahodan and "hiding" on Roshar under the other 3 shards?

Edited December 18, 2024 by waynegrantham

[maybunny she/her]

I just finished the book today and immediately had the thought that Nohadon was Adonalsium, so I'm glad I'm not the only one! I dont have anything to add, I think you've gathered good evidence and I'm fully on board. 

[GroundPetrel]

I mean, that definitely explains what he pulls in the contest to give Dalinar time to think. 

I'll buy it. 

[Cheapshot]

On 12/17/2024 at 3:48 PM, herold_of_dogs said:

 

 

I definitely agree with the first part. As for Ado's rival - that's very interesting, do you think there is some textual evidence supporting that or is it a guess at this point?

Aethers have existed since prior to the Shattering of Adonalsium, and some believe that they predate Adonalsium itself or are totally independent from its creations.

 

I mean we have the whole aethers and their powers being out there.  Lots going on there that we have zero clue about.  But it does sound like something big is going on with one of the Aethers and twinsoul. 

Also it felt like twinsoul worshipped aethers. 

[Argenti he/him]

 

On 12/13/2024 at 4:57 PM, herold_of_dogs said:

When Taravangian tries to claim Dalinar's soul before it passes into the Beyond, he is denied. The being that Dalinar interacts with seems to be the most likely candidate by whom he is claimed (thanks @adouloumis for pointing this out).

 

So one small point. Dalinar stretches out, and passes into the beyond. I think that's what he's claimed by, not Ado. Odium has no power over Dalinar, he didn't "lose" and didn't need to listen to him. 

On 12/13/2024 at 4:57 PM, herold_of_dogs said:

In Wind and Truth Dalinar encounters Nohadon in his visions of the Spiritual Realm. This entity pulls him out of his final encounter with the god Todium without the god noticing anything. That’s a pretty big sign that he’s at least a Shard level power. It could be Dalinar’s mind itself but Nohadon doesn’t seem to be a figment of Dalinar’s imagination. He serves him buttered bread which Dalinar has never eaten before so has no way of imagining it. Dalinar seems to come to the same conclusion:

Quote

Didn't Hoid do that? Pull kaladin out of a vision without odium being able to notice? Hoid isn't a shard.

[adouloumis]

15 hours ago, Argenti said:

 

So one small point. Dalinar stretches out, and passes into the beyond. I think that's what he's claimed by, not Ado. Odium has no power over Dalinar, he didn't "lose" and didn't need to listen to him. 

 

A good point but we do not know the relationship between Adonalsium and the Beyond.

And it is equally likely that whatever entity claimed him, simply allowed him to pass on.

 

15 hours ago, Argenti said:

Didn't Hoid do that? Pull kaladin out of a vision without odium being able to notice? Hoid isn't a shard.

Also a good point. But this time, the one being pulled in a vision was a Shard Vessel himself and while Kaladin was one of Odium's many moving parts, Dalinar in the constest as Honor had Odium's 100% undivided attention. So I would think that this task is some orders of magnitude more difficult.

[Quantus he/him]

On 12/13/2024 at 4:57 PM, herold_of_dogs said:

Theory: Adonalsium is Nohadon and willingly "shattered"

Just some thoughts after reading the Wind and Truth about Adonalsium. Curious about your thoughts, not saying this is bullet-proof.

About the Shattering

We know that Adonalsium existed before the Cosmere and created all things (source). We can assume that he could see the future like the Shards and possibly have even greater omniescence and omnipresence.

 

What was he like? Why did the 16 go with the plot to kill him? Some wanted power but some were genuinely good people to whom it seemed like the only option left. I hypothesize that he was a "micromanaging" God albeit with good intentions. This led to a level of intrusion into the mortal affairs that people found unacceptable - they wanted free choice.

The on the nose explanation of what happened is that the 16 who shattered Adonalsium outsmarted and killed him. This seems suspect to me given his own omniescence and power.

The alternative I propose is that Ado reflected on the reasons of the people wanting to kill him and found some of them valid. He questioned his role up to that point in the affairs of Cosmere and allowed himself to be shattered.

Where's Ado

Adonalsium stepped down from ruling the Cosmere by letting himself be shattered. But he didn't "die" in the process,The assassination was an impetus for him to self-reflect on his role in the Cosmere. He went from being a micromanaging God (like Old Testament God) to a "wise witness" God (like New Testament / Christian God).

My guess is also that he is not powerless after Shattering but being the all-powerful Cosmic Creator and source of everything, by being Shattered, he simply willingly invested the Vessels with his power through Shards (like Honor invested the Heralds) and could reclaim that power at any moment should he choose to (well that was my guess, I don't think anything in the text supports that strongly. Thanks @wormotif for pointing out why it's unlikely. On the other hand Nohadon = Ado seems to have a lot of evidence in the text). But he wants to let his people rule themselves now (like Nohadon did for a time) and listen instead.

This parallels the human king Nohadon's personal journey and reflections on ruling and his reflections in Way of Kings are applicable to the human king as well as the cosmic deity.

Nohadon in Wind and Truth visions is Adonalsium

Note: Nohadon = No-h-Adon = No-Lord (No = negation as in English, Adon = Lord in Hebrew).

 

In Wind and Truth Dalinar encounters Nohadon in his visions of the Spiritual Realm. This entity pulls him out of his final encounter with the god Todium without the god noticing anything. That’s a pretty big sign that he’s at least a Shard level power. It could be Dalinar’s mind itself but Nohadon doesn’t seem to be a figment of Dalinar’s imagination. He serves him buttered bread which Dalinar has never eaten before so has no way of imagining it. Dalinar seems to come to the same conclusion:

 

So if he’s a different Shard+ level power then which one? Possible Shard candidates are Reason and Valor about whose location we know little. But Nohadon's advice (to the degree that he explicitly even offers any) is very balanced and rings with wisdom. While we’ve seen that a Vessel can overpower a Shard’s intent I’d expect at least some of that itent to shine through in an extended conversation and I didn’t notice any Reason or Valor impulses here. Additionally, if we look at the actual life of the king Nohadon and his book The Way of Kings - the argument that he would be one of these Vessels grows very weak. He doesn’t write like a person guided by an extreme of a single Intent but rather with a wise balance.

There is only one other being with this power level that we know of - he is some part of Adonalsium himself. We’ve seen in the book that there are parts of him that remain - the Wind, Stone and Night on Roshar. So it’s not unthinkable this could be another "part" of him - potentially the primary part. And note that we do not know how powerful that could be.

Is king Nohadon the same being as vision Nohadon?

If so, that would make him Adonalsium incarnate. Did (some part of) Ado decide to incarnate in Roshar to learn more about mortal lives? Did he make himself forget his godly nature for a time or was he aware of it?

Or was the king Nohadon simply a human king who reached similar conclusions to ruling that Ado did. I am inclined towards them being the same entity.

Some text evidence for king No-h-Adon = Adonalsium

 

 

On first reading these words they refer to Nohadon's journey by foot when he deserted his kingship for a time. But they seem even more relevant to a God recognizing the day to walk away and abandoning his throne and gifting his people with his absence so that they grow to solve their own problems.

Who better for Tanavast (a god) to study than the actual God?

 

 

Dalinar shares a meal (bread with butter) with Nohadon in his final vision before Dalinar abdicates the power of Honor. Nohadon also doesn't say who he is even though Dalinar explicitly asks him (see next quotation). He lets Dalinar pass with two lies.

 

 

Nohadon asks Dalinar to consider what "Nohadon" would do in Dalinar's situation (being in possesion of divine powers but unsure of how to apply them for the good of everyone). Later, Dalinar seems to follow Nohadon's unspoken advice and abdicates his divine powers. Just like I suggest Adonalsium did (and the king Nohadon did for a time).

In a subsequent paragraph, Dalinar (and the reader) questions the king's identity - implying he might not be who he "obviously" seems to be.

After that Dalinar notes he doesn't feel like a god but a man talking to another man. In what situation would Dalinar (a god) feel this way? Maybe when talking to another god / God.

When Taravangian tries to claim Dalinar's soul before it passes into the Beyond, he is denied. The being that Dalinar interacts with seems to be the most likely candidate by whom he is claimed (thanks @adouloumis for pointing this out).

Finally, let's consider this Tanavast's stream-of-consiousness when he begins to question the actions he's taken as a deity:

 

Tanavast asks the Wind (a part of Adonalsium) what he should do. It tells him to listen. He stops micromanaging (leading, organizing, pushing) and for the first time in his divine existence it all start to make sense. He is needed as a witness. They might be better off without him. Could Adonalsium have come to a similar conclusion?

Note that while compared with Tanavast, the Wind still considers Adonalsium to have been a caring God but it's possible to have an overbearing and still well-intentioned caring God.

I also want to shine a light on this part of the above quote:

 

At first glance it is just another in the enumeration of random individuals Tanavast witnesses (the woman milking hogs, the child, the scholar, the wanderer) but it has a double meaning - Tanavast is also a wanderer on a god's journey and unwittingly walks the same path of listening that No-h-Adon has taken up after the Shattering.

Thanks for reading, looking forward to your thoughts.

These Words Are Accepted.

[Nix]

On 12/20/2024 at 4:42 AM, adouloumis said:

A good point but we do not know the relationship between Adonalsium and the Beyond.

And it is equally likely that whatever entity claimed him, simply allowed him to pass on.

 

Also a good point. But this time, the one being pulled in a vision was a Shard Vessel himself and while Kaladin was one of Odium's many moving parts, Dalinar in the constest as Honor had Odium's 100% undivided attention. So I would think that this task is some orders of magnitude more difficult.

Yes, the only other alternative I can think of besides Ado is another shard that is just extremely skilled and experienced. Dalinar and Taravangian are both very young as shards go.

Also, my thought is that perhaps Ado, if they knew the shattering was coming, carved off a balanced portion of their power that they could inhabit at the time of the shattering so they would have something to use in traversing the Cosmere and observing the results of the shattering. 

[SOM1else he/him]

Isn't H a wildcard letter in Vorinism? Technically couldn't Nohadon be read as Not-Adon?

[Ookla she/her]

3 hours ago, SOM1else said:

Isn't H a wildcard letter in Vorinism? Technically couldn't Nohadon be read as Not-Adon?

Oh, that's clever. I wouldn't put it past Brandon to do something sneaky like that. 

[EnviableAres]

On 12/19/2024 at 11:04 AM, Argenti said:

Didn't Hoid do that? Pull kaladin out of a vision without odium being able to notice? Hoid isn't a shard.

Yes Hoid did pull Kaladin out of a vision but he didn't have Odiums full attention. We see that Navani can manipulate the visions Odium gives her also, Shallan manipulates the visions to show her a completely different vision than Odium shows her. Not to mention Renarin and Rlain can completely pull out and hide from Odium with the help of their spren. I don't find it so difficult to believe Hoid with the help of a Dawn Shard(existence; Special Attributes: strength, Durability and, Healing) couldn't do something similar. I think that he could have been aided by Existence to give Kaladin Strength and in part Heal his mentals to be able to stand up to Odium.

[coolsnow7]

On 12/13/2024 at 4:57 PM, herold_of_dogs said:

Nohadon

Please. All of you. Just stop. Brandon has already said, all but explicitly, “Nohadon is just a dude”. Y’all doing some serious drugs going from [literally nothing] in the books themselves to “Nohadon is actually the God Beyond incarnate, also the second coming of Adonalsium, also the Grand Apparatus, and also Kaladin’s and Shallan’s lovechild from a different timeline, brought over from the Spiritual Realm”. 

The Nohadon theories need to be shut down, they’re getting way out of control. 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

10 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

Please. All of you. Just stop. Brandon has already said, all but explicitly, “Nohadon is just a dude”. Y’all doing some serious drugs going from [literally nothing] in the books themselves to “Nohadon is actually the God Beyond incarnate, also the second coming of Adonalsium, also the Grand Apparatus, and also Kaladin’s and Shallan’s lovechild from a different timeline, brought over from the Spiritual Realm”. 

The Nohadon theories need to be shut down, they’re getting way out of control. 

No one is saying that the real person Nohadon who lived on Roshar was necessarily anything more than a person. It’s totally possible for the Nohadon that interacted with Dalinar in the weird Nohadon dream/visions was coming from another shard like Valor. Valor is hidden and it would make sense if she was hiding “behind enemy lines” and right under Odium’s nose. 
 

If Valor was interacting with Dalinar and others, it would make sense that she would pattern her communication in the same way that He was used to communicating with the almighty/Honor - visions. And appearing to Dalinar as someone he looked up to and could recognize also makes sense. So the Nohadon in those visions could have been constructed/directed by Valor.
 

And it is very odd and feels very intentional that Brandon specifically said Dalinar was claimed by another when Retribution tried to snatch up his soul. We were explicitly told that Dalinar was in Taravangians power and T could destroy him because Dalinar threw the contest, but again - when he tried get Dalinar, his powers told him that he was claimed by another…. Valor could have claimed Dalinar after forging a connection with him via The Way of Kings, and then just protected him from Odium’s grasp until he was able to slip into the beyond.

That’s the only theory here I could get behind for sure, cause I don’t think Brandon will be doing much with characters that go into the beyond or having them interact with some actual “god beyond” at any point. That will all stay mysterious. 

[DSCrankshaw]

I don't know whether the vision Nohadon, as opposed to the original, historical Nohadon, is an aspect of Adonalsium. Given the theology about the One, maybe everyone is. 

But I personally wonder whether Odium is doing what it was always intended to do. It is unmitigated divine wrath, focused on destroying those who murdered Adonalsium. The motivations of the Vessels may matter less than the end goal. 

[Hoids Imaginary Friend]

On 12/14/2024 at 8:57 AM, herold_of_dogs said:

Adonalsium is Nohadon

My theory is Nohadon became an Avatar of Valor, an Avatar has the power to create and throw people into visions. It wouldn't be surprising that Valor has an interest in Dalinar, which why I also think he was saved by Valor in the end and to become an Avatar.

Why Valor?

Tanavast thought she would be most willing to help but couldn't find her..

And if all the Shards are like Odium and have a kind of omnipresence with regards to seeing where their intent is inspired throughout the Cosmere, she'd have to notice Roshar, a planet in eternal war.

We also have some solid hints at a 4th Shard meddling, during the clash between Honor and Odium that shattered the Plains. Tanavast noticed would could be a 4th moon (on a planet where moons represent the gods), a mysterious metal with interesting implications, and a power that resonated with this clash.. under the shattered plains. 

Where led to believe the Chasmfiends were drawn there because of Odiums pool, but they don't seem very Odius do they? They kind of remind me of Vikings; communal, caring, love a good fight / challenge.

Interestingly, Dalinar notes the Highprinces don't seem to care about the war on the Plains, they see it as sport / challenge..

On top of the Nohadon vision that was sent by an unknown entity we also have that strange vision at the end of WoR where Dalinar 1st saw the warm light, which is after the huge battle on the Plains.

At the end of Oathbringer, again after a bug battle where Dalinar rejects Odium he sees the warm light but this time in the physical realm, which has interesting implications (though I don't think it's mentioned again.?)

Could that warm light be Valor? Maybe it's warm in color, like a yellow orange, e.g. Valorlight (Glory light?)

[DiePie]

On 12/25/2024 at 8:39 AM, CognitiveShadow said:

On 12/24/2024 at 9:54 PM, coolsnow7 said:

Please. All of you. Just stop. Brandon has already said, all but explicitly, “Nohadon is just a dude”. Y’all doing some serious drugs going from [literally nothing] in the books themselves to “Nohadon is actually the God Beyond incarnate, also the second coming of Adonalsium, also the Grand Apparatus, and also Kaladin’s and Shallan’s lovechild from a different timeline, brought over from the Spiritual Realm”. 

The Nohadon theories need to be shut down, they’re getting way out of control. 

No one is saying that the real person Nohadon who lived on Roshar was necessarily anything more than a person.

Normally I'd agree, a lot of the Nohadon stuff seems bent on trying to deny the agency of the long-dead King. Like, things can happen without the interference of a Shard, people can reflect on lifetimes of inflicted suffering and decide to become better. Adonalsium does not have to give himself a body and walk among us for there to be someone with a similar personality to his. But most of the theory fits with the interpretation of the text that Adonalsium (or some remnant of him) is impersonating Nohadon in the spiritual realm during that vision. And I think that makes sense from a character's point of view:

Honor is looking for someone to console/guide them (it?). Tanavast respected the man, and he has a reputation for being notably honorable among the people of his era, and among historians who don't doubt his existence outright. We know perceptions influence the way highly invested beings act, I don't doubt that it could've influenced a developing shard's opinions.

To Adonalsium, said developing shard would be almost like their progeny. The way the child acted seemed (to me) too familiar with the scene Dalinar has accidentally conjured up, giving me the impression that they had talked to a vision of Nohadon in the past (my previous theory for why Dalinar so easily slipped into it). Nohadon (who fusses over them like a parent) talks about both the child (and Dalinar) like he knows more than a being in a vision would. Adonalsium would have an interest in getting Dalinar to help teach the child (even if it's a hard lesson), and a (former) God would be one of the few beings with the foresight to manipulate him into reaching that conclusion. Nohadon, being a very similar person to Adonalsium (and having a strong connection to both Dalinar and Honor), would be a good choice if they wanted to talk to both of them.

And as said previously, Dalinar already had a connection to Nohadon. Out of anyone alive he probably has the most positive opinion of the man. So it makes sense he would seek him out for advice... Though I think there is more going on. Going into the vision, he's reacting against almost destroying Roshar with the power, seeking a way forward without direct confrontation... A connection to Adonalsium, perhaps. The way he's used the spiritual realm in the past, he needs such a connection. I feel like Dalinar should've been thinking more clearly about Nohadon for Dalinar to create the vision.

 

And that's why I like this version of the theory so much. It allows me to preserve Nohadon's as a man, by saying he simply tried to be better, and in doing so made himself into the image of God. But at the same time, it allows us to explain some odd parts of the story, such as parallels between Nohadon and Adonalsium included in the story, and the man in the visions knowing more than he has any right to.

Edited December 27, 2024 by DiePie
Improves clarity of the text