Why so much hate on the debate?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

13 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Odium's argument centered around him being trustworthy to keep his word but all the B-plots in this book (including the debate itself) occur because of a silly loophole in a contract that Odium exploits ignoring intent.

Well, sorry, but no. Taravangian did not use the loophole in the contract. Not directly. He made Wit think that he'd use the loophole and forced the Coalition to react to the perceived threat. But he did not use that loophole to alter the result of the contract. Her merely acknowleged when the loophole was used against him.

He attacked during the last ten days. That, however, was within the spirit of the contract. He then used a child champion. In fact we have no idea what he would have done, if hadn't gotten Gavinor into his hands.

 

8 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

And Odium beat her like a drum. He didn't have to do it that way, he could have taken TC without all the drama.

He does not want to take Thaylen city. He wants Thaylen city on his side. He is Rosharan. Rosharans are his people. They are the soldiers in his war of conquest about to come. Hence he wants collaborators, not slaves.

 

19 minutes ago, The Kings Raven said:

I find it completely plausible that in the moment Fen would make the deal. I also think that its reasonable to think she's an idiot for it. Fen is mortal, Odium is a god, Honour is a god. And the contest of champions is Honour's grand plan. Fen should conclude that a god's master plan has a better chance of winning than her skills as a mortal negotiator.

Honor lost. The contest of champions is plan B. I doubt that Taravangian really convinced Fen. He gave her the excuse she was already looking for and a way out with something to salvage. She must have been aware of the economic arguments he made.

 

[jonrober]

I think there's another reason that wasn't stated (that I remember) but was a part of what we'd seen in earlier books.  Dalinar and Jasnah had to work hard to get the other members of the coalition on their side.  It felt like a lot of the work was built on the back of Jasnah's reputation.  She wasn't like other Alethi.  She saw clearly and was fair and was bigger than Alethi traditions.  She was someone that Fen could potentially trust.

And then everything that Odium revealed made her sound more and more like a normal Alethi solving problems with the knife.  Sure, she didn't actually pull the trigger on most of those plans that Odium mentioned, but her morality still set her up to consider a lot of things that to Fen must have sounded very Alethi in nature.  It wasn't just the personal betrayal of Jasnah considering  a hit on Fen, it was undermining the trust in Jasnah that made the entire coalition work.  Once Jasnah loses that, even if it's for things that "any monarch" might consider, Fen has to wonder what else Jasnah's philosphy would allow for.  Odium had already brought up "even if you can trust Jasnah, can you trust her descendants" to put her in mind about trusting Alethi in general.

[clowncarcrash]

22 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I liked that it wasn't yet another side plot of armies punching each other.

It felt a little clunky in execution because it felt like an imperfect blend of a couple different ideas/functions.

1) A question on whether it is smart for a small power to seek peace with a larger power rather than get wrecked trying to oppose them.

2) An ethics 101 debate on utilitarianism.

3) Jasnah gets taken down a peg.

The final product felt a little clunky to me as a result.

Yeah, this is the correct take. Maybe Brandon sandbagged her or maybe we can take it as commentary on how debate-bro culture sucks.  Regardless, it'll give Jasnah a good arc in the future which I think she needed.

[OneLegWarrior]

i think people also forget she is a literal human being. with the circumstances and context around the debate, and the pressure she places on herself/feels is placed on her, not doing so well against a god in a spur of the moment debate that ends up being an attack on character seems to be less of a intellectual endeavor and more of "when will you fail" type situation. 

[Rorzikel]

Not mad at her losing, though I do think she just gave up. For her utilitarian perspective, I think she got a little too sucked into the debate team mentality when I think she (a person who is willing to use assassins) could have stood to sully her arguments with some emotional appeals, ad hominems, toxicity, and not backing up so many of his points willingly.

She seemed more concerned with volleying points back and forth, when regardless of her philosophy depends on selfishness for her family or utility, she should have been going for the kill. Rip this man a new one, don’t step into a bear trap because you won’t play dirty.

Why aren’t we relentlessly pushing back on Big T’s “make a deal with me, I’m totally trustworthy” rhetoric whenever it comes up? He is literally fighting a war based in loopholes, sneaking past a contract Wit believes is so genius. He’s bound to a volatile intent. He immediately threatened to annihilate Thaylenah when Fen didn’t jump at the first opportunity. This is not a trustworthy negotiator, jump this man, Jasnah. One time isn’t enough, every instance of “my word is my bond” deserves to be called out as the blatant lie it is.

His attacks on her character? Jasnah, this is the fate of the world, defend yourself like you’re OJ Simpson. If someone brings up you plotting to off your sister-in-law, respond with how Aesuden ended up swallowing an Unmade and starved her own people to throw Cthulhu parties. Clearly a bad egg. 

His claims of being the best at utilitarianism because of “godly” foresight? Bring up how how his predecessor got played and outwitted by Dalinar, to the point that’s how Todium got his Odium. Perfect precognition, I think not.

I think the economic argument was the fatal blow, but block with your limbs not your face and throw a few hits back before you go down.

[MagicMaggot]

5 minutes ago, Rorzikel said:

Why aren’t we relentlessly pushing back on Big T’s “make a deal with me, I’m totally trustworthy” rhetoric whenever it comes up? He is literally fighting a war based in loopholes, sneaking past a contract Wit believes is so genius. He’s bound to a volatile intent.

Which actually goes even more against the man Taravangian than the power. The power just doesn't care about trustworthiness, Taravangian on the other hand lived and publicly defended his idea of the leader/god being neccessarily immoral. He snuck his way into the coalition, lying to everybody, sabotaged them, got a second chance, and betrayed them again. And always with a biiiiig "I would do it all again" afterwards. Why was the kicked puppy Honor ok with that guy again? Whatever, the only thing that makes him in any way trustworthy are the rules of divinity enforcing direct promises, but you can be certain that that guy will use every and any wiggleroom you give him against you, when he sees any profit in it. Retribution might be tighter bound, but that wasn't on anyone's radar here. 

At best the guy can try to sell himself as a principled utilitarian, but why the heck would that convince Fen? Why was so much of the debate about entry-level problems with Utilitarianism that our supposedly genius Jasnah had problems with, when the person that they were trying to convince obviously has no use for it? Whyever would anyone assume that "Jasnah would kill you, if she thought it necessary. She is right in that, and so would I. So give me power over you instead of her" would be a good pitch? At most it is another threat. 

I am perfectly fine with the result, but it was just frustrating to see the arguments that it was based on - and the arguments that they failed to raise.  I am fully behind the idea of getting Jasnah to question her seemingly very basic utilitarianism to move her character along, and Taravangian arguing from a utilitarian standpoint (with better information about the future and the cosmere) towards ends she finds unacceptable, but can't counter within her utilitarian framework, isn't a bad way to do it. But that shouldn't have been the debate to convice Fen. 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

On 12/14/2024 at 4:50 PM, SheepAreFluffy said:

Unless I'm supposed to believe that Jasnah has always been overhyped and has never been particularly smart to begin with? But I'm fairly sure that that is absolutely not the authorial intent here.

I actually think this was part of it - the whole event humanized Jasnah and showed that she does the exact thing she had taught Shallan to do: put on an air of confidence and others will believe you know what you’re doing. That doesn’t mean Jasnah isn’t extremely smart and capable, but it just emphasizes that she is a mortal human being with flaws. One of those flaws is lacking some self-awareness when it comes to her belief systems. She likes to think she has all the answers, and when she analyzes them in theory it all checks out. But when put into a practical application where a difficult decision is forced on her, she finally sees what she’d been missing. Plus she was up against a literal god… so she never stood a chance anyway.

For me, part of the the point of this whole event was showing that Jasnah had gotten so good at using her confidence to sway people and give her authority and power, that she actually bought into her own act. So now she has to deconstruct that a bit and get a little more real with who she is, what she believes, and what she views as right / wrong motivators when it comes to morality.

6 hours ago, MagicMaggot said:

At best the guy can try to sell himself as a principled utilitarian, but why the heck would that convince Fen? Why was so much of the debate about entry-level problems with Utilitarianism that our supposedly genius Jasnah had problems with, when the person that they were trying to convince obviously has no use for it? Whyever would anyone assume that "Jasnah would kill you, if she thought it necessary. She is right in that, and so would I. So give me power over you instead of her" would be a good pitch? At most it is another threat. 

I am perfectly fine with the result, but it was just frustrating to see the arguments that it was based on - and the arguments that they failed to raise.

I agree that the arguments were kind of pointless and rudimentary, but I also feel like it was intentional. Jasnah went in expecting it to be a progressive debate, beginning at the fundamentals and then moving beyond them to more and more complex analysis. Logic and reason. She points out that there were arguments T made that she expected and then moved into her next phase. It was going to move in that direction.

But Todium did what Dalinar did at the end - he just flipped the table and changed the game to a completely different thing entirely. He stopped arguing philosophy and trying to defend his actions. Instead he basically put an ultimatum on the table - “join me in peace or join me after blood and destruction, also even if you win you’ll be cut off and isolated so good luck with that, also Jasnah (and more importantly all of the alethi in general) actually can’t be trusted any better than I can be.”

Jasnah got caught up in what she was expecting it to be, was forced to acknowledge and admit to things from her past that clearly she had pretended did not trouble her. And she was confronted with the reality of her hypocrisy. It seemed to me that T had two goals: capture the city in a way that doesn’t require destruction and setting up a whole new government, and break down Jasnah in a way that opens the door to her *potentially* coming over and seeking T’s help at some point in the future.

I saw it as one small part of a larger scale plan by Taravangian to manipulate and coerce, and to convince others that he is right and make them doubt themselves. It was all in character and (I thought) very well done.

[heridfel]

Echoing some of the points which others made, we have been repeatedly told Jasnah is an excellent scholar and philosopher. Her mother, her uncle, her brother and cousins, even Hoid all are impressed by or in awe of her intellect. This is the first time that she gets into a debate with someone who doesn’t enter into the debate expecting to lose… and she loses.

It’s a bit of us being told, not shown, just how good she is at debating. It’s a bit of the Worf Effect, where this is meant to show how great TOdium is at debating by making Jasnah defeat herself. But like with Worf, if we only see Jasnah lose when faced with a credible opponent, it makes her look less competent rather than making her opponents look skilled.

It’s especially disappointing to me that we are told that she has regularly endured ad hominem attacks because of her atheism but she flounders when Taravangian pulls out her past actions to argue that she doesn’t always follow her own philosophy. It seemed like the first time she has ever been challenged in that fashion.

[TheOtherDave]

1 minute ago, heridfel said:

It’s especially disappointing to me that we are told that she has regularly endured ad hominem attacks because of her atheism but she flounders when Taravangian pulls out her past actions to argue that she doesn’t always follow her own philosophy. It seemed like the first time she has ever been challenged in that fashion.

To be fair, it’s one thing to be attacked for public “hot takes” and quite another to be attacked for things you thought nobody knew about from years ago.

[RedBlue]

The point Taravangian was making about trustworthiness wasn’t that he personally is more trustworthy than Jasnah.

His point was that he is magically bound by formal contracts, while Jasnah isn’t. Taravangian can exploit loopholes, but Jasnah — and future generations of Urithiru rulers — can disregard their promises entirely.

The reason Jasnah doesn’t rebut him with ‘but Taravangian betrayed the coalition!’ is that it’s beside the point. Fen knows how Taravangian works. She’s betting on her ability to negotiate a contract that doesn’t have exploitable wiggle room.

[MagicMaggot]

17 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

For me, part of the the point of this whole event was showing that Jasnah had gotten so good at using her confidence to sway people and give her authority and power, that she actually bought into her own act. So now she has to deconstruct that a bit and get a little more real with who she is, what she believes, and what she views as right / wrong motivators when it comes to morality.

Possible... but does that make it better or worse?  She has been a character for ca. 3,5 books before this debate, and still we mostly knew her through her reputation. If we're throwing the validity of that out in her deconstruction, along with her moral certainty, aren't we close to throwing out the kid with the bathwater here? I didn't like Jasnah much before, but I was interested to see how that would change, once I got to know her better. Leaving the debate with not much more than "I thought I knew something about her, but I guess I didn't" isn't particularly satsifying to me. Just like seeing her broken down in an argument that felt wholly outside of my (I'd argue not unreasonable) expectations for the character isn't. 

17 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

I agree that the arguments were kind of pointless and rudimentary, but I also feel like it was intentional. Jasnah went in expecting it to be a progressive debate, beginning at the fundamentals and then moving beyond them to more and more complex analysis. Logic and reason. She points out that there were arguments T made that she expected and then moved into her next phase. It was going to move in that direction.

But Todium did what Dalinar did at the end - he just flipped the table and changed the game to a completely different thing entirely. He stopped arguing philosophy and trying to defend his actions. Instead he basically put an ultimatum on the table - “join me in peace or join me after blood and destruction, also even if you win you’ll be cut off and isolated so good luck with that, also Jasnah (and more importantly all of the alethi in general) actually can’t be trusted any better than I can be.”

I skimmed the debate again, and I'm not buying it. 

So... Todium told Jasnah that he would convince Fen to join his ("already victorious") empire, and that he'll be curious to see what counterarguments she can come up with. He even said that he was perfectly able to "shove" (like Odium), though he would try to lead first. And after a sleepless night mulling about the terms of the discussion, Jasnah interpreted that as "we'll have a formal and impersonal discussion about historical oppression within the singer empire", or something like that? She didn't think the threatening military or economic situation (and the ways to get better deals to avoid them) would come up, and was blindsided by it? Even though she herself acknowledges that she should have been prepared for the economic attack and wasn't? Yeah, no, I'm not buying that, if she isn't supposed to be a total idiot, as soon as she ventures slightly outside of her specific realm of expertise. Even if she is actually supposed to be overhyped, that's too far for me. 

And the personal attacks shouldn't have come unexpectedly either, considering that she started the ad hominems. T's personal untrustworthiness, in contrast to the upstanding people of the coalition that had proven so reliable to Fen, was her main argument on the issue itself, before Odium turned it on her. She played on T's dirty history and reputation, and made it about characters. Which wasn't a bad move in itself. Then he responded in kind, which shouldn't have surprised her. It certainly wasn't a foul by the rules she herself played by. To paraphrase:
"We would never do those evil things that Todium would" - "But Jasnah actually would, I have the sources"
"We care about you and your people" - "And you would still sacrifice it, if you deemed it necessary"
"I wouldn't lie to you!" - "I just proved that you would."
He isn't making it personal, he is engaging her personal arguments. 

Todium didn't change any rules here. He didn't even really mislead her, as it was written. She just failed. And she did so while going into it thinking that there really wasn't a way for her to lose, because Fen would never waver, repeatedly tallying points she made and thinking she was doing rather well within the discussion. I'd actually prefer to think that the discussion wasn't written as convincingly as it could have, over thinking that Jasnah was supposed to be so blind as to run into a wall repeatedly without seeing it coming. 

18 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

It seemed to me that T had two goals: capture the city in a way that doesn’t require destruction and setting up a whole new government, and break down Jasnah in a way that opens the door to her *potentially* coming over and seeking T’s help at some point in the future.

 

 I agree. And I don't think the execution was well done. It won't harm the story going forward, because the goals it reached and wanted to reach were suitable to set up her coming arc. But it was a highly unsatsfying read for me. 

15 hours ago, RedBlue said:

The reason Jasnah doesn’t rebut him with ‘but Taravangian betrayed the coalition!’ is that it’s beside the point. Fen knows how Taravangian works. She’s betting on her ability to negotiate a contract that doesn’t have exploitable wiggle room.

I don't think that's in the text, is it? The wriggle room wasn't much of a topic at all, since the discussion basically ends when the negociations begin, or did I overlook something? I mean, Fen might have had misplaced confidence in her abilities as a negociator, sure, but I'd think that's something you should show the readers, if it is meant to be part of understanding the scene. 

For Dalinar it certainly wasn't beside the point, since the realisation of how useless any contract with Odium would be in the long run, even if he won, was a deciding factor in him flipping the board in the end. Which, cuts both ways, of course, but that's all the more reason to explore it. 

[RedBlue]

42 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:

I don't think that's in the text, is it? The wriggle room wasn't much of a topic at all, since the discussion basically ends when the negociations begin, or did I overlook something? I mean, Fen might have had misplaced confidence in her abilities as a negociator, sure, but I'd think that's something you should show the readers, if it is meant to be part of understanding the scene.

It’s heavily implied in chapter 116.
 

Quote

“This does not change the situation,” Jasnah said, meeting Taravangian’s eyes. “Fen knows that you double-crossed us, and set us up for destruction. She might question my morality, but why does that matter? You are the one she would be making a deal with. Your history of behavior is far more important.”

“Well, that’s true, at least,” Fen said, lowering the contract.

Another nod, almost imperceptible, from Taravangian—in recognition of her skillful turning of the conversation.

“Fen, she’s right,” Taravangian said. “I’ve been a monster at times. However, I am bound by contracts.

Then Fen and Taravangian begin talking terms before Jasnah cuts them off by changing the topic.

And I don’t think Fen has misplaced confidence in her ability to negotiate good terms. I think the point of the scene is that Taravangian is correct. Cutting a deal is genuinely Fen’s best option in this situation, if you look at it from a purely utilitarian perspective.

[MagicMaggot]

1 hour ago, RedBlue said:

It’s heavily implied in chapter 116.

I don't really think that quote hits my point. Todium is bound to the letter of the contract, but is free to break it in spirit as much as he wants to, as the attempted conquest of the realms through their capitals shows. And his philosophy basically requires him to do it, as soon as he deems it necessary. The contract doesn't even have to have real holes for that, because, as Dalinar notices, Todium can easily create conditions that will lead your own side to break it. It's not good old king T anymore, it's a god with full control over his lands and people, and an ability to see and plan the future that a mortal can't ever rival. 

So yeah, I'd call any confidence in creating a contract that Todium can't subvert as he likes misplaced. Even if we discount Dalinar's point, because they just didn't think of it at the time, I'd still be with Yanagawn:

Quote

"Yes, the contract could have been a little better, but I think every Azish person in this room can admit that even with important documents, you always miss something.”

Note that I am not saying that Fen shouldn't have signed in the end, because, as I said above, that argument can cut both ways, and undermines the whole contest of champions as a solution, and Fen doesn't really have clearly better long-term options, no matter if Todium is an honest actor. But I am saying that it should have been part of the discussion. If there had to be a discussion at all.

Edited December 17, 2024 by MagicMaggot

[MrHobbes343]

I don't think the debate mattered nearly as much to the setting as it did to Jasnah specifically.

For Fen this was much more Kissinger-esqu Realpolitik. As soon as T-Odium put the "Who will you trade with" card on the table it was over.

Was Fen going to cause at best a civil war between the sides of Theylena who wanted what was economically right in a not starving next season kind of way, against those who want what is morally right in a not siding with the god of evil kind of way?

It could be argued in a utilitarian way that Fen made the right call. Theylena will be able to trade and by extension be able to feed their island nation in the medium to long term.  

This wasn't a Lincoln-Douglas prepare your contentions and make a rational argument "Debate", this was a world dominating pseudo god that was coming to a small nation in time of war and saying "I will give you whatever terms you want". For Fen that is as good as it gets. Tarivangians sense of melodrama may have been Theylan City's only chance at long-term survival.

For the price of burning one friend, she got to dictate terms to a god. In the calculus of nations that's as good as it gets for a nation on the other side of a superpower. 

 

For as Thucydides tells us “The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must”, and in the moment Jasnah was weak and had very little trade to offer and Fen was weak and was about to be locked out of trade in a trading country, but T-Odium was strong and had what Fen wanted. The conclusion would have been irrational any other way.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

12 hours ago, MagicMaggot said:

She has been a character for ca. 3,5 books before this debate, and still we mostly knew her through her reputation. If we're throwing the validity of that out in her deconstruction, along with her moral certainty, aren't we close to throwing out the kid with the bathwater here?

She has been a minor-to-significant character in the first half, and we know that she is expected to be a major character in the back half. She could not go through much character development throughout the first half, but still had to be involved in the story. We have also seen in her own POV's that she constantly doubts herself, yet when it's not her POV she seems insanely confident. I don't know what you're missing here - she has always put on a confident front, and she tells Shallan as much. But that mentality can only get you so far, especially when you are put into an impossible and unwinnable situation against a literal god who forces you to confront all the things you've been subconsiously hiding from while using your confidence as a mask/crutch. She will now be forced to face reality, and we will get to see her go through that process in the back half of the books.

I actually think it's fascinating - Kaladin was one of the primary characters (if not the main character) for the first half, and he was struggling with depression, self-worth, etc. the whole time, slowly getting more sure of himself and building hope. Now we have Jasnah who will be more of a main character who has outwardly shown nothing but confidence and determination, and has accomplished a ton of things that she openly recognizes were significant and important (just highlighting how opposite she is from Kaladin). Yet we got to see flashes of her self-doubt (which she repeatedly suppresses when it pops up), and then got to see her confident facade crumble. She was defeated in the very thing that she was supposed to be the 'best' at, even if it wasn't a fair fight and there wasn't actually a way to win. She's always been broken, just like the rest of the characters, but now she is going to have to admit that to herself. And that's going to be how she grows and develops into an even cooler character. I'm excited to see it, and find it very interesting since it is in some ways the inverse of Kaladin's character arch.

12 hours ago, MagicMaggot said:

Todium didn't change any rules here. He didn't even really mislead her, as it was written. She just failed. And she did so while going into it thinking that there really wasn't a way for her to lose, because Fen would never waver

I think you nailed the crux of it right there - Jasnah never considered that Fen would actually waver. She couldn't concieve of it, because in her mind there was no real reason to go back. There was no way to make a deal with Odium. And it points out that Jasnah lacks empathy. Yes, she can care for people and build strong relationships, but when considering something important like whether to give the city up to Odium or not, she isn't actually good at putting herself in other people's shoes. She didn't even grasp why Fen would consider the deal until it was flipped around and she was asked if she would sacrifice Thaylen City for her own people... She was trying to get Fen to ignore Todium and stay loyal to her and the Coalition at the detriment of her own city and people, but she didn't even factor in that aspect. Once the role reversal was made clear, it was obvious that she would have made the deal that Fen did.

In my opinion, this is why the debate was powerful. Maybe it wasn't great from a storyline/plot/writing style perspective, and maybe the arguments weren't as flowery or in depth as some debate scholars would have preferred. But from a character perspective, I found this section to be extremely deep and powerful. We got a lot of windows into who Jasnah really is, what motivates her, what frightens her, and what she hides from herself. We all have blind spots that seem extremely obvious to other people, which we are completely oblivious to. But once those are pointed out in a powerful enough way, there is no turning back and we are changed forever. It's a sucky experience at first, but then it turns into an important opportunity for growth and progress. 

At the end of the day, there was no winning for Jasnah, and Fen made the only choice she could make that wasn't a pointless adherence to keeping oaths at the detriment of her people and city. This debate was never about the city, and Odium inviting Jasnah to come and seek out his help down the road hints at that. Like I've said, I think Todium set this up in the hopes that he could break Jasnah at least a little, and get her to just open up to the possibility that maybe she isn't so different from him and could work with him in the future (assuming he were to become the ruler of the entire planet at the end). The debate was purely about Jasnah's own character development and preparing for the back half of the series and I am totally here for it.

On 12/16/2024 at 3:04 PM, heridfel said:

But like with Worf, if we only see Jasnah lose when faced with a credible opponent, it makes her look less competent rather than making her opponents look skilled.

I think this is a fair point, but like I've said above I also think it is important for her character development in the back half of the books. She has built her image on her ability to project confidence and by all accounts she has backed that up for the most part.

We did get to see examples of her cleverness throughout the book, so we know she actually is extremely smart and capable. But think about the letter that she wrote to the Azish - they were astounded by her writing ability and arguments, the way she styled the writing in a single 'rhythmic meter' and included all 7 logical forms and whatnot. She is extremely capable, and no one doubts that. But like I said just above this - she lacks empathy and is not the most genuine person. That's why Navani's arguments were what really won over the Azish people in that instance: was genuine and real in her pleading for them to consider joining the coalition. 

It's likely that however you define what Jasnah's essay was missing in that case is also what her arguments were missing for Fen. Maybe Fen would have been swayed if Jasnah had been a little more like her mother, and had expressed some passion and some emotion instead of her usual cold, calculating logic and reason. That said, it would have been disastrous and Fen did make the right choice, so it's actually better than Jasnah was herself in that moment. At least for the Thaylen people, anyway... 

[RedBlue]

8 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

We did get to see examples of her cleverness throughout the book, so we know she actually is extremely smart and capable. But think about the letter that she wrote to the Azish - they were astounded by her writing ability and arguments, the way she styled the writing in a single 'rhythmic meter' and included all 7 logical forms and whatnot. She is extremely capable, and no one doubts that. But like I said just above this - she lacks empathy and is not the most genuine person. That's why Navani's arguments were what really won over the Azish people in that instance: was genuine and real in her pleading for them to consider joining the coalition. 

Very good point — I’d forgotten about that example.

A huge problem with Jasnah’s approach is that she hyper-focuses on arguments and presentational styles that work well in formal debates, but nowhere else. I think she knows that people don’t actually make decisions or change their minds on the basis of this type of logic, but she keeps falling back on it whenever she tries to convince people, probably because it has worked for her in academic contexts, which is what mattered to her in the past. It’s one of the things she’ll have to unlearn.

[MagicMaggot]

13 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

She has been a minor-to-significant character in the first half, and we know that she is expected to be a major character in the back half. She could not go through much character development throughout the first half, but still had to be involved in the story. We have also seen in her own POV's that she constantly doubts herself, yet when it's not her POV she seems insanely confident. I don't know what you're missing here - she has always put on a confident front, and she tells Shallan as much. But that mentality can only get you so far, especially when you are put into an impossible and unwinnable situation against a literal god who forces you to confront all the things you've been subconsiously hiding from while using your confidence as a mask/crutch. She will now be forced to face reality, and we will get to see her go through that process in the back half of the books.

First off to reiterate: I am not disputing that this will be a good thing for Jasnah's character development in the long run. But I am trying to criticizs the way it was presented, because it did not work for me. And like usual, the judgement preceeded my justifying arguments. 

My contention on this part is more along the lines of the Worf effect criticism, and I guess I misjudged where you were going here, so sorry for the confusion. I think showing the limits of faked confidence is totally fine, but not if we are losing the impression that she is actually smart at the same time. You are right, she is still "extremely smart and capable" as a scholar, going by the way the people seem to think to her and her works. Just like Worf is among the most dangerous warriors around in StarTrek, and everyone says so, you can see his fighting contest trophies, and sometimes he beats up holograms. But the Worf effect comes in, when he is percieved to fail whenever he gets a strong opponent. We still know that he is supposed to be strong, and getting thrown around by anyone who gets a superpower doesn't change that, but we don't feel it, because our brain judges by what it sees.  

And I do think some of that is happening for Jasnah here. Yeah, we know the Azish loved her argumentative poetry skills, but we haven't seen them. Yes, she is an expert on tons of historical, philosophical, and other scholarly topics, but we haven't read that. But we are seeing the debate. And if one finds her performance here underwhelming, and we haven't seen anything really impressive by her before, then that's what sticks in judging her. I know that she is still supposed to be super smart... but I don't feel it.  

Now I'll certainly agree that with all the things Sanderson probably wanted to achieve here, giving us a convincing debate between a celebrated genius and a god, while also laying Jasnahs flaws bare, while also showing us Todium's character and motives, while also convincing the non-scholarly Fen, while also explaining Todium's utilitarianism to his readers, and whatever else we brought up here in this thread is a storming tall order. And no, with all that in mind I wouldn't say he did badly at all.

But I am commenting on the resulting text, not the way he got there, and that still left me decidedly unimpressed. Which is why I am wondering, if it was a good idea to try to fit all of that into these 2 chapters, or if it could have worked better, if there were more seperate events for the seperate goals. 

 

13 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

I think you nailed the crux of it right there - Jasnah never considered that Fen would actually waver. She couldn't concieve of it, because in her mind there was no real reason to go back.

And that doesn't seem like a lack of empathy to me, but like a lack of foresight. Which I don't think should should have been Jasnah's problem here. Looking at Todium's capabilities and Thaylenah's situation as a trading city, I can't get my mind around the idea how a smart person could ever have thought Fen's situation simple. Purely cognitive empathy is more than enough to understand Thaylenah's wants and needs, and to see that Todium wasn't in a bad position to affect or address them, Jasnah didn't need to feel what Fen is feeling to figure that out. 

And yes, these arguments weren't what decided the debate, because it took the undermining of Jasnah to get there. But as far as I'm concerned that's another reason the debate failed to land for me, because I can't for the life of me figure out why Jasnah being Jasnah would be more persuasive than economic ruin, possible violent conquest and the dependency on Dalinar's very unsure victory. Maybe I am the one lacking empathy here, but I just don't get it. And while I can accept Fen's particular kind of  emotionality being somehing I don't get, I have a harder time accepting that the supposedly overly rationalistic Jasnah would find it obvious and unchangable. 

13 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

In my opinion, this is why the debate was powerful. Maybe it wasn't great from a storyline/plot/writing style perspective, and maybe the arguments weren't as flowery or in depth as some debate scholars would have preferred. But from a character perspective, I found this section to be extremely deep and powerful.

I'm not really disagreeing with this, by the way. But I'm not enjoying the structure of a character arc, I am enjoying a story, and looking beyond storyline/plot/writing style is looking beyond much of the point of the reading experience for me. It also isn't independent from each other, and an imperfect dialogue can imply things about a character that weren't intended, or prejudice a reader in unhelpful ways. And I do think there is a hint of that here. 

Now, turn it down a bit again, we are talking about 2-3 chapters and they were by no means catastrophic. And no, I don't really think this will do any long-term damage to the character or the book series. When I say I found the debate unimpressive, I don't mean to say more than that. I wasn't impressed, and I feel justified in that feeling. But I wouldn't have brought it up, if it wasn't the topic of discussion anyways. 

Edited December 18, 2024 by MagicMaggot

[The Kings Raven]

13 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:

Now I'll certainly agree that with all the things Sanderson probably wanted to achieve here, giving us a convincing debate between a celebrated genius and a god, while also laying Jasnahs flaws bare, while also showing us Todium's character and motives, while also convincing the non-scholarly Fen, while also explaining Todium's utilitarianism to his readers, and whatever else we brought up here in this thread is a storming tall order. And no, with all that in mind I wouldn't say he did badly at all.

I think Brandon failed on giving us a convincing debate between a celebrated genius and a god. It definitely felt very utilitarianism 101, with a really basic argument - not far of people are imperfect - being treated as a devastating counter blow.

I think a better debate would be for them to agree with each other in principle and then get into the details on weather conquering the universe can or will not lead to the greatest good.

But I'm not sure if that would work better for the story than Jasnah being devastated to learn she is flawed. I still find it a bit hard to imagine she hasn't considered that point before; but it is likely key to her whole arc.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

5 hours ago, MagicMaggot said:

And that doesn't seem like a lack of empathy to me, but like a lack of foresight. Which I don't think should should have been Jasnah's problem here.

I'd argue that her lack of empathy and "genuine-ness" is what caused the lack of foresight. If she had been able to put herself into Fen's shoes and tried considering how she might feel if she were in that position, maybe she would have been much more prepared for the arguments that Todium would make.

I get that it seems like an obvious thing for her to miss. I agree that she should have realized that Thaylenah would have been in a bad spot even after winning, but the fact that she didn't is (for me) an obvious example of a blind spot that she has. If it was for her own nation and people, she would have thought of this point and many others. But in this case she expected to be able to use her confidence, relationship, and reputation to keep Fen in line. She only thought of Fen, and not even from personal relationship standpoint - she thought of Fen from a 'dependent on the support of Dalinar and the coalition' standpoint. Odium showed Fen that Jasnah's relationship with her wasn't necessarily genuine or deep. He showed her that confidence in Jasnah and the coalition might be misplaced. And he used Jasnah's reputation and espoused beliefs as the baseline reasoning for why accepting his deal was the best solution.

[Through the Living Questio he/him]

I read that chapter in the middle of the night and was flabbergasted lol 

I enjoyed reading it though

Edited December 18, 2024 by Ookla the Enigma

[coolsnow7]

On 12/13/2024 at 5:21 AM, Forged Herald said:

Jasnah thought she was going to outsmart T-Odium, but that wasn't going to happen and that hybris is what brought her down.

Well no, she thought that her arguments were so ironclad that not even Odium could find a hole. Even God can’t prove that 2+2=5! 

 

On 12/14/2024 at 5:35 PM, basement_boi said:

Yeah, I don’t get why people are so uptight about the ad hominem issue. Yes, ad hominem attacks are a fallacy and don’t prove anything about anything. But they work. That’s a real world problem that people have, is that often times the better argument/person actually loses because of character attacks.

“Ad hominems are a fallacy” is not true in this context! The person making the argument matters a lot! The whole point Taravangian is making - is always making literally every single time we hear from him - is that abstract debate and theory is a hollow representation of real rulers making real decisions, and consequently is insufficient for real world leaders.

I mean come on, this guy spent the past 4 books popping up behind every leader on the planet saying “hey, can you feel it? The weight of responsibility? The moral culpability? No one could possibly know what it’s like if they haven’t experienced it” - this is the guy you’re (not literally you, I mean the person complaining about ad hominem attacks) going to say is being a naughty boy for personalizing the debate?

Honestly I can’t decide if people aren’t reading the books, or they took one rhetoric class in college and all they took away was “ad hominem is a fallacy! A fallacy! Like, the argument is just wrong. Hey professor you hear what I said? I said it’s a fallacy! They’re very naughty.”

On 12/15/2024 at 4:02 AM, The Kings Raven said:

Fen should conclude that a god's master plan has a better chance of winning than her skills as a mortal negotiator.

Yeah and it would just be silly for Fen to worry that perhaps, whatever the merits of Honor’s plan, his goals don’t align with her goals-

Oh wait.

Edited December 19, 2024 by coolsnow7

[Forged Herald]

4 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

Well no, she thought that her arguments were so ironclad that not even Odium could find a hole. Even God can’t prove that 2+2=5!

How is what you said any different from what I said. Jasnah thought she was going that her arguments were better than Odiums and that was enough to win the debate. She didn't think it was going to devolve into personal attacks and she didn't consider the fact that Odium knew a lot more things than her. If she knew as much as Odium, she could have won by saying: "You aren't trustworthy, you destroyed your own home (Karbranth)". But Jasnah thought she could outargue Odium and that was never an option.

The other way for Jasnah to win the argument would have been to say: "I refuse to argue with you: I trust Queen Fen to amke the right decision." But she didn't do that either. She thought seh could argue her point better than an almost all-knowing beeing and that simply outarguing Odium would be enough to convince Fen.

[Kasimir he/him]

4 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

“Ad hominems are a fallacy” is not true in this context! The person making the argument matters a lot! The whole point Taravangian is making - is always making literally every single time we hear from him - is that abstract debate and theory is a hollow representation of real rulers making real decisions, and consequently is insufficient for real world leaders.

It's not that they aren't fallacies. It's that formal fallacies only deal with deductive logic, and arguments have many other types of logic - inferential logic, as you allude to. So yeah ad hominems are formal fallacies but deductive certitude isn't the be-all end all in this case. Hell, in most cases outside of the logic 101 classroom, fallacies just aren't super useful because the world doesn't run on deductive logic. 

Edited December 19, 2024 by Kasimir

[RedBlue]

8 hours ago, Forged Herald said:

The other way for Jasnah to win the argument would have been to say: "I refuse to argue with you: I trust Queen Fen to amke the right decision."

I don’t see how that would have worked.

Allowing Odium to lay out his case and then refusing to respond to it would not have been convincing at all to Fen. Odium made some extremely valid points, and failing to mount any kind of counter argument would look like conceding.

[heridfel]

2 hours ago, RedBlue said:

I don’t see how that would have worked.

Allowing Odium to lay out his case and then refusing to respond to it would not have been convincing at all to Fen. Odium made some extremely valid points, and failing to mount any kind of counter argument would look like conceding.

Actually, I could see it. Let him start arguing, then say something like this in her own voice.

”He said that he was going to have me make his case for him. When I refused, he decided to change the rules and start making his own argument. As soon as something doesn’t go his way, he changes his mind. He says that he can be bound by oaths and contracts. I know you are a great negotiator. You had better hope you write the best contract in the world without a single loophole because remember: he isn’t just one of the parties in the contract. He’s also the judge.”

Consider this: there is a recurring theme in the Stormlight Archive that the only winning move is to not play the game your opponent wants you to play. Jasnah might need to to learn that.