Exist

[StanLemon]

So now we know the second Dawnshard. Makes a lot of sense why it grants a healing ability and makes causing harm a challenge. What are your thoughts?

[hagmania]

My only current thought is that now, with the 16th shard name confirmed, we can begin the 4x4 Dawnshard x Shard table theorizing in earnest.

[StanLemon]

Preservation feels like it would comfortably be under Exist 

[Necessary Eagle she/her]

Aside from Preservation, none other other Shards are jumping out at me as being obviously Exist-aligned. Like, the Change lineup I'm confident on at least three of the four, but thus one's being difficult.

[StanLemon]

It might be a bit of a stretch, but I feel like Honor could fit under it

[NattyBo]

Autonomy would fit the bill IMO

[Ewery1]

Also know that we know that Wit & Sigzil both have the same burdens from their Dawnshards my guess is that no harm is not a limitation applied to other Dawnshards. What will Rysn’s be with Change?

[phraps]

I'll throw my 2 cents in with Dawnshard categorization. If "Unite Them" came from a Dawnshard, I feel like it's possible that all four Dawnshards were on Roshar at the same time and no one knew, which would be very funny.

Change

• Ruin
• Cultivation
• Endowment
• Invention

Exist

• Preservation
• Ambition
• Autonomy
• Mercy

Unite(?)

• Dominion
• Honor
• Devotion
• Valor

?????

• Odium
• Whimsy
• Virtuosity
• Reason

[Lavitz1023]

Reason fits well with Exist. “I think therefore I am”

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

I like Reason over Ambition for Exist 

Ambition, Viruosity, Whimsy, and Odium feel like their more matched in a NYT "Connections" manner than Reason

[The Stick]

Yes, they all seem more like feeling things.

[Moirne she/her]

I actually like Ambition under Change - aspiring to change yourself and become better.

[RedBlue]

Three Shards jump out at me as being Exist-flavoured.

Preservation, for obvious reasons.

Virtuosity and Invention, because both of those Intents relate to bringing something — a piece of art, or technology — into existence.

The fourth one I’m not sure about. I considered Autonomy, but that feels like it would fit better in a category that’s more about rules or governance than existing. You can easily exist without being autonomous, and autonomy can’t make things exist.

I’m leaning toward Whimsy. If you take it to mean a sort of playful or silly creativity, like the bits of creating art that are too sloppy or spontaneous to make it into the more skill-based Virtuosity, or coming up with ideas that are too weird or pointless for Invention, it could make sense. But if you take Whimsy to mean just quirkiness or a sense of humour, it’s difficult to pick out a fourth exist-aligned Shard.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

20 hours ago, Necessary Ookla said:

Aside from Preservation, none other other Shards are jumping out at me as being obviously Exist-aligned. Like, the Change lineup I'm confident on at least three of the four, but thus one's being difficult.

Exist:

• Preservation
• Virtuosity
• Whimsy
• Autonomy

Change:

• Ruin
• Cultivation
• Ambition
• Invention

3rd Dawnshard - something like "Feel"

• Devotion
• Mercy
• Odium
• Valor

4th Dawnshard - something like "Believe"

• Honor
• Endowment
• Reason
• Dominion

Not perfect, but this looks plausible to me.

 

7 hours ago, RedBlue said:

Three Shards jump out at me as being Exist-flavoured.

Preservation, for obvious reasons.

Virtuosity and Invention, because both of those Intents relate to bringing something — a piece of art, or technology — into existence.

I must disagree. Virtuosity is about an inane ability, while Invention is about change by adding new stuff.

[TheoreticalMagic]

EXIST - Inherent, things that can just Be without other context

- Virtuosity (artistic talent or spirit)

- Odium (divine wrath or hatred)

- Valor (innate strength of spirit or courage)

- Reason (natural capacity for careful deliberation)

UNITE/COMBINE/CONNECT/MATTER - things that require a connection to some other being, thing or idea in order to matter, combine what EXISTS to be more than what they initially Exist as

- Honor (can not exist in a vacuum, requires a standard of conduct or oaths being adhered to in order to weigh how honorable or not one is)

- Devotion (has no meaning independently of something, someone or some concept or pursuit to focus that devotion on)

- Dominion (forging a deliberately constructed connection that positions one higher relative to others....claiming Dominion OVER something or someone)

- Mercy (relative to situations, power differentials, etc....Mercy requires a dynamic between one & someone or something else, and what would be considered merciful in one situation wouldn't necessarily be considered merciful in another)

MOVE - things that have a direction or trajectory, the Primal Command for what Exists and Connects to Move from their start point, initial state or position of creation, to act, do things, be other than static

- Autonomy (move in a self-determined direction under one's own power or authority)

- Ruin (move towards a net negative endpoint, natural entropy and decay)

- Preservation (move opposite an entropic direction, requiring actions undertaken to preserve things from decay, death, maintain Existence and Connections as they are, not as a natural state but as the result of active choices to move the needle back from a shift towards entropy or reverse course)

- Whimsy (acting and moving in ways and directions chosen by chance, caprice or at random with no aim towards longterm planning or any particular reason or intention)

CHANGE - remaking things in a net positive way or with an aim towards becoming more than what they already Exist, Connect or Move as

- Ambition (movement undertaken with specific trajectories intending change to oneself or one's circumstances born of advancement, acquisitions, or other additives)

- Invention (movement that applies innovation or a spark of genius to the Combining/Connecting/Uniting of base materials or ideas that Exist in order to create something new or useful)

- Endowment (introduction of a gift of some kind into a system, civilization or person's circumstances to induce change born of how they use that)

- Cultivation (using planning and additions of resources, ideas or labor to foster or encourage positive growth or increased complexity)

Edited December 11, 2024 by TheoreticalMagic

[StanLemon]

A grouping set without too much thought on which Dawnshard 

Shards pertaining to oneself- Odium, Whimsy, Reason, Ambition

Shards pertaining to others - Valor, Honor, Devotion, Mercy

Shards pertaining to taking things and creating or improving- Virtuosity, Cultivation, Endowment, Invention 

Shards pertaining to the relationship between oneself and the world- Preservation, Ruin, Autonomy, Dominion 

Still clunky, particularly with Autonomy and Dominion and not inherently meant to be aligned with Dawnshards, but I was thinking about the Change Dawnshard and that it's not just about change but seemingly about positive change and Virtuosity, Cultivation, Endowment, and Invention came to mind as the most likely 

 

Edited December 11, 2024 by StanLemon

[Azdiur]

I think there's going to have to be some second level of "alignment" to get distinctions within each "bucket." I agree with the general groupings posited above (Personally I'm calling them: Exist, Change, Bind, Proceed). One obvious option would be if each Shard has a "primary" and then in each bucket one would be "pure" and the other 3 would each pair with one of the other Commands. I've started trying to organize it by this but haven't come up with groupings I'm fully satisfied with. Preservation as "Exist Proceed" (or "Proceed Exist") and Ruin as "Change Bind" makes an interesting complement, though: Preservation has the goal and the sustenance, but needs the raw power of Change that Ruin provides. Hemalurgy also makes sense as a Connection-oriented power, at least to me.

My other completely half-baked aluminum-hat theory comes because I noticed some of them feel like they're *three* of the Commands (Cultivation is definitely Exist and Proceed, but it feels like Change belongs in there too. If we look at the combinatorics, there are exactly 16 ways to combine 4 items if order doesn't matter:

• 4 singletons
• 6 doubles
• 4 triples
• 1 All 4
• 1 None

If we take the theory that The Shattering was from using all 4 Pure Commands on Adonalsium itself, then I could see "fractures into all possible combinations" as a reasonable response? I haven't found a layout of the Shards I'm happy with, but am definitely poking around some. One thing I'm toying with is whether or not having Proceed somehow maps to futuresight? I'm not super satisfied with this model, but I at least want to kick the tires some now that we have all the names, bearing in mind that there's definitely a layer of human interpretation at work....

[RedBlue]

25 minutes ago, Azdiur said:

I think there's going to have to be some second level of "alignment" to get distinctions within each "bucket."

I was playing with this idea, too. The mural from Dawnshard — the power splitting into four, and the quarters splitting into four again — seems to encourage this line of thinking.

My issue is that, no matter how much I play with groupings, I can’t get a second level of alignment to work for more than a few Shards. Speculating fans struggle to agree on even the first ‘layer’ of alignment, so I can’t imagine a second layer that wouldn’t feel forced and unnatural, which would be an unsatisfying solution when the books get there.

So, at least for now, my guess is that the Shards fit in four groups of four with no particular order beyond that.

[Azdiur]

Yeah, I'm hesitant to put too much effort in when there's clearly info we don't know, but it's definitely fun to theorize.

Though, I will note that this time I picked up on a Vasher quote in RoW that seems pertinent: "That's the trouble with science. It's never done. Always upending itself. Ruining perfect systems for the little inconvenience of them being wrong." Clearly this is foreshadowing Navani's investigation later in RoW, but given her sections in the chapter openings in WaT, I suspect there's Another Layer at work, and I for one would actually be kinda impressed if it ends up being that "Perfect 16" isn't quite as perfect as everyone in the world assumes...

[StanLemon]

4 hours ago, Azdiur said:

Yeah, I'm hesitant to put too much effort in when there's clearly info we don't know, but it's definitely fun to theorize.

Though, I will note that this time I picked up on a Vasher quote in RoW that seems pertinent: "That's the trouble with science. It's never done. Always upending itself. Ruining perfect systems for the little inconvenience of them being wrong." Clearly this is foreshadowing Navani's investigation later in RoW, but given her sections in the chapter openings in WaT, I suspect there's Another Layer at work, and I for one would actually be kinda impressed if it ends up being that "Perfect 16" isn't quite as perfect as everyone in the world assumes...

That would be fun, we already know that there are more than 16 metals that influence Investiture so that seems possible 

[Szeth Pancakes he/they]

6 hours ago, Azdiur said:

Yeah, I'm hesitant to put too much effort in when there's clearly info we don't know, but it's definitely fun to theorize.

Though, I will note that this time I picked up on a Vasher quote in RoW that seems pertinent: "That's the trouble with science. It's never done. Always upending itself. Ruining perfect systems for the little inconvenience of them being wrong." Clearly this is foreshadowing Navani's investigation later in RoW, but given her sections in the chapter openings in WaT, I suspect there's Another Layer at work, and I for one would actually be kinda impressed if it ends up being that "Perfect 16" isn't quite as perfect as everyone in the world assumes...

Brandon's clearly setting up a lot of nuance with Shard boundaries, with Honor's Intent bending stuff. I would be surprised if there wasn't some breakdown of our assumptions about the Shards and how they work in Era 4.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

Perhaps we should first collect points of agreement. Does anybody disagree with

• Ruin, Cultivation, Invention -> Change
• Preservation -> Exist

 

[RedBlue]

39 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Perhaps we should first collect points of agreement. Does anybody disagree with

• Ruin, Cultivation, Invention -> Change
• Preservation -> Exist

 

From what I have seen, almost everybody who speculates about this has

• Ruin, Cultivation -> Change
• Preservation -> Exist

I don’t understand why you’re listing Invention under the Change umbrella. I get that the process of inventing is usually iterative, but in the bigger picture, the point of invention is to make something, not to change it.

I think Ambition and Endowment both fit better with Change. Changing one’s circumstances, and changing ownership.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

4 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

I don’t understand why you’re listing Invention under the Change umbrella. I get that the process of inventing is usually iterative, but in the bigger picture, the point of invention is to make something, not to change it.

If you make something that didn't exist, you've changed the world, haven't you?

6 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

I think Ambition and Endowment both fit better with Change. Changing one’s circumstances, and changing ownership.

The issue here is that ambition is also an emotion. An emotion not necessarily aimed at change. If you are already at the top your ambition is to stay there. You could make similar arguments about Endowment. The only Shard I could really not push into Change is Preservation and, though with a bit less conviction, Honor.

[logicless.bt]

1 hour ago, RedBlue said:

From what I have seen, almost everybody who speculates about this has

• Ruin, Cultivation -> Change
• Preservation -> Exist

Put Autonomy under Exist as well. Hard to get Exist-ier than that, since having your own agency is basically your proof of existence.

I also agree with Ambition under change unequivocally.