Vessel of Reason

[MarcieIsForager She/They]

This just occured to me reskimming chapters could Nohadon be the Vessel of Reason hidden on Roshar the 4th Moon.

 

Hence why Dalinars soul belonged to another.

[TheMusicMan]

Valor.

Thats my 2 cents

[earthexile]

Valor seems like the most obvious choice, since Dalinar has always acted with valor even when his actions were dark and twisted, and especially at the end when he gave up infinite power for the sake of others having a chance at a better world. His courage is legendary. 

On the other hand, Reason might approve of someone who learned to read and turn aside from violence in the pursuit of greater knowledge, so that he could make the most intelligent and farsighted choice possible at the crucial moment. The Sunmaker's Gambit is an act of reasoning, of understanding the situation well enough to look forward to distant potential outcomes. And since he committed that act as a divinity, it may have created a powerful Connection to the concept of Reason.

My weirdest idea is that the God Beyond claims him. That would explain why he stretched into the Beyond, rather than being obviously protected or yanked away by another Shard. Dalinar is perhaps Roshar's first Prophet of the God Beyond, and may be the way that the recognition and worship of that being, whatever it is, spreads on a whole world. 

[MarcieIsForager She/They]

11 minutes ago, earthexile said:

Valor seems like the most obvious choice, since Dalinar has always acted with valor even when his actions were dark and twisted, and especially at the end when he gave up infinite power for the sake of others having a chance at a better world. His courage is legendary. 

On the other hand, Reason might approve of someone who learned to read and turn aside from violence in the pursuit of greater knowledge, so that he could make the most intelligent and farsighted choice possible at the crucial moment. The Sunmaker's Gambit is an act of reasoning, of understanding the situation well enough to look forward to distant potential outcomes. And since he committed that act as a divinity, it may have created a powerful Connection to the concept of Reason.

My weirdest idea is that the God Beyond claims him. That would explain why he stretched into the Beyond, rather than being obviously protected or yanked away by another Shard. Dalinar is perhaps Roshar's first Prophet of the God Beyond, and may be the way that the recognition and worship of that being, whatever it is, spreads on a whole world. 

Tbh i was kinda going between the two the reason i didnt think Valor was, whatever Nohadon was it was more subtle than i kinda expect Valor to be to encouragr Dalinar to bravery. And did more of Hoid thing of kinda getting Dalinar toward the right questions and answers which seems like more of a Reason rather than Valor thing to do but im guessing it wrong.

[Argenti he/him]

On 12/9/2024 at 8:51 AM, MarcieIsForager said:

This just occured to me reskimming chapters could Nohadon be the Vessel of Reason hidden on Roshar the 4th Moon.

 

Hence why Dalinars soul belonged to another.

I think that's just as simple as him going beyond. He's not claimed by the God Beyond, he's just choosing to leave this world behind. His soul belongs to himself, first and foremost. He was under no obligation to serve Odium, not like if he lost, and thus Odium has very little power over him. 

[alder24]

On 12/9/2024 at 2:51 PM, MarcieIsForager said:

This just occured to me reskimming chapters could Nohadon be the Vessel of Reason hidden on Roshar the 4th Moon.

Euridrius is the name of Reason's Vessel. Nohadon was said to be dead by both Rayse in OB and Tanavast in this book. 

On 12/9/2024 at 2:51 PM, MarcieIsForager said:

Hence why Dalinars soul belonged to another.

I think it's just the God Beyond. He faded into the Beyond, which was said directly in the book. The Beyond is a place that not even Shards can reach.

[Elder]

I actually wonder: if Reason finds their way into this conflict… would Jasnah take it up should circumstances allow? She certainly aligns with the intent. But would she want that power?  Before Wind and Truth, I’d probably have said no.  Afterwards? Well, let’s just say I think she was broken, will be rebuilding herself, and may not be the same person when it’s all over.

[WordOfBrandon]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

I think it's just the God Beyond. He faded into the Beyond, which was said directly in the book. The Beyond is a place that not even Shards can reach.

So was Dalinar connecting to the Beyond in his visions when he ascended to Honor?  I feel like this may be the first time we saw someone kind of interact with the Beyond.

[coolsnow7]

7 hours ago, alder24 said:

Euridrius is the name of Reason's Vessel. Nohadon was said to be dead by both Rayse in OB and Tanavast in this book.

Ah you beat me to it.

I don’t know why this crowd is obsessed with coming up with new whacked out placement for Nohadon even though Brandon tells us, all but explicitly, that he’s just a regular dude in the WoB.  

[Szeth Pancakes he/they]

Nohadon doesn't have to be the vessel -- Reason could be using Nohadon's image to get to Dalinar, since they know he's someone Dalinar trusts.

[Mack]

I don't think a fourth Shard is present on Roshar. Just too out of left field.

My current theory is that the old Nohadon we see in the stranger visions are similar situation to the "The Blackthorn" spren. Nohadon is a legend himself and many thought of him, though less so after the Recreance. But probably enough in that time to give way to a Nohadon spren. There is one curious part in Chapter 122 where Tanavast remarks on Nohadon. Question if he should have insisted on Nohadon gaining immortality. For the purpose of studying him longer. That says to me that Tanavast made the offer and Nohadon rejected it. Would be a nice tie in to the fourth parable epigraph too. It's also convenient that Dalinar and Navani completely skipped over visions of Nahadon and the first generation of Knights Radiant so we don't actually see what happened in those days. 

[alder24]

12 hours ago, WordOfBrandon said:

So was Dalinar connecting to the Beyond in his visions when he ascended to Honor?  I feel like this may be the first time we saw someone kind of interact with the Beyond.

Probably not, although Dalinar may claim this - that's one explanation of what was going on. Brandon will never confirm or deny if the Beyond and the God Beyond exist in Cosmere, because this is too fundamental to the beliefs of many characters in Cosmere and the answer would invalidate their beliefs. Nohadon and Dalinar are strongly Connected for some reason and there is a remnant of Nohadon's Spirit Web in the Spiritual Realm, so one explanation is that Dalinar created a vision of Nohadon and it was just like all other of his visions. 

Spoiler

Questioner

In Stormlight, Dalinar mentioned that <if he can die, he's no longer a god>, so to speak. And throughout the cosmere, gods died *inaudible*. Is there an omniscient, omnipotent, actual God in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Is there an omniscient, omnipotent God in the cosmere? Some people believe that there is. You guys laugh about this, but I don't mean it to be a laughing thing. There are certain questions I will not answer in the cosmere, specifically because it would too much undermine some of the characters' beliefs. And I want to treat characters respectfully. So whether there is life after you pass into the Beyond, and whether there is a God of gods, an omnipotent, as we would define "monotheistic God," are questions that I don't answer, and I let the characters deal with. Because if I answer that, then the character discussions about this are meaningless. Not really, but they kind of are. So there are a couple things I won't answer about the cosmere, because the characters don't have these answers.

Questioner

<Do you know the answer>?

Brandon Sanderson

I know the answer, yes.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Forger (paraphrased)

In Stormlight 5, we know they are looking for Ba-Ado-Mishram and some of it will take place in the Spiritual Realm, where we know that time is odd and somewhat condensed. Does that mean that we could have an interaction with Lopen and Wayne?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It could be possible. But it would be an imitation, like a puppet. That'd be a bad idea, crossing the streams like that.

Forger (paraphrased)

So the same with someone like Elend?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yeah, so the Spiritual Realm would be trying to create them. Making them what they should be, but it wouldn't be them. Like the visions. You could interact with them, but it wouldn't be them.

Forger (paraphrased)

So the SR is using raw investiture to create them?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yep.

Forger (paraphrased)

So since they are like the visions, could one replay them over and over?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They could.

FanX 2024 (Sept. 28, 2024)

 

Spoiler

Gordon Kelsch

Can Dalinar permanently bring someone back from the Spiritual Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

No. In fact, whether or not the voices he is hearing are legitimately voices from Beyond the Spiritual Realm, or if they're a manifestation much like the visions that the Stormfather creates, where Dalinar's desire for certain things is basically creating... So when Dalinar goes into the visions, what's going on there is: these are not people with autonomy that he is interacting with. These are Investiture manifesting a basic AI that is able to adapt, cause Investiture kind of can do this.

Dalinar would argue, "Yes, that's the case except for when I actually met Nohadon. That character felt different, that felt like the real Nohadon stretching through the Spiritual Realm and actually interacting." Jasnah would say, "No, that's because, Dalinar, you have such, in your mind, a hope and desire to see Nohadon, he's this mythological figure in your head, that basically the Stormfather's knowledge of who he actually was was creating this much more animated puppet that was more like actually how Nohadon was, but was based on knowledge of the spren and the Investiture that you're interacting with." And Dalinar would say, "I heard Evi's voice." Jasnah would say, "You heard the Investiture coming to life and speaking with her voice the things you needed to hear. And it wasn't that the Stormfather was like, 'He needs to hear this, I'm going to create this fake.' But it's instead your relationship with this magical force that does take on life of its own, manifesting this thing." Which one it is, I do not answer. Both are, I consider, equally valid interpretations of the text, and equally valid interpretations of the magic system.

Once someone is passed into the Beyond, there is no force that can bring them back, according to people's understanding of the magic system. There is even the argument that Cognitive Shadows are not the person. That the Cognitive Shadow is indeed a spren with the memories and an imprint of the person's personality that becomes self aware and continued on living that person. It's kind of the same question that arises in Star Trek. When you are ripped apart and rebuilt piece by piece with the transporter, some people in Star Trek do not believe you are becoming the same person again. You are then a different individual who has been cloned from the person and had the memories attached. Functionally, in the narrative, for the reader, it's the same. Is it the same soul or not? That question is answered differently by different people in the Cosmere. There are equally valid interpretations from the reader. You get to decide, basically. You get to decide, just like if there's a story where a person's brain is uploaded to a computer, you get to decide: is that the same person? Because we can't do that, we don't know. Is that the exact same individual, or is that a computer simulation of that person, where the person has died? That's what a Cognitive Shadow essentially is, but using Cosmere physics instead of theoretical science fiction physics.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

 

9 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

I don’t know why this crowd is obsessed with coming up with new whacked out placement for Nohadon even though Brandon tells us, all but explicitly, that he’s just a regular dude in the WoB.  

I understand why. The visions Dalinar experienced with Nohadon were very weird and special, there was something going on with this. But I agree, he's probably dead as Rayse and Tanavast said and it's just some SR shenanigans due to Dalinar's idealization of Nohadon. However, I wouldn't be surprised if he's still alive, but as a normal person, not a Shard.

[Bendalloy Savant]

On 12/9/2024 at 8:51 AM, MarcieIsForager said:

 

Hence why Dalinars soul belonged to another.

His soul belongs to Navani y'all! The Stormfather was their officiant, and as Retribution took up the power of Honor, Taravangium had to honor that bond!

 

I kind of convinced myself.

[Nitpicking]

I continue to think that "Nohadon" in the visions is

SPOILER FOR DRAGONSTEEL PRIME

Spoiler

Frost. Frost has that no-interference oath, but we see in DSP that he can't actually follow it himself, he cares too much. (Hoid, after his death and resurrection, thinks that he can't really abandon Roshar and its people, even though he was ranting about leaving them to burn when he talked to Dalinar. There's a reason they're friends.) Nohadon-of-the-visions acts a lot like Frost-the-old-wise-human-counselor from DSP. We know from Words of Brandon (and hints in WaT) that the dragons advise people through spiritual-realm connections.