Originally Dark-eyed Shardbearers and Procreation

[MasterK-Bob he/him]

I searched through arcanum before posting this but perhaps I couldn't think of good search terms. My question is, do we know about shard-blade bonding and inheritance? Like if someone is dark-eyed and then bond a shard and become light-eyed, and then they marry a light eyed person, would all of their kids be light-eyed, because that's what's in their current shard-bonded "operative DNA" or would half or more be dark-eyed because that's what's in their (dominant) genes? How about if they marry a darkeyes? Would any of their kids be light-eyed? Would it be at the same ratio as any darkeyes light-eyes pairing? Has Brandon ever answered this?

[Treamayne]

On 11/23/2024 at 10:34 AM, MasterK-Bob said:

I searched through arcanum before posting this but perhaps I couldn't think of good search terms. My question is, do we know about shard-blade bonding and inheritance? Like if someone is dark-eyed and then bond a shard and become light-eyed, and then they marry a light eyed person, would all of their kids be light-eyed, because that's what's in their current shard-bonded "operative DNA" or would half or more be dark-eyed because that's what's in their (dominant) genes? How about if they marry a darkeyes? Would any of their kids be light-eyed? Would it be at the same ratio as any darkeyes light-eyes pairing? Has Brandon ever answered this?

The question is indirectly implied in this WoB:

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

My question has to do with the color of Shallan's eyes currently, because we've noticed over the books that Kaladin's eyes, as he's continued to use his Surge, changed to lighter and lighter blue. Whereas one could argue that Shallan is farther in her Ideals than Kaladin is, yet her eyes have not changed at all.

Brandon Sanderson

Right, 'cause they were already light.

Questioner

'Cause they were already light? So it only affects lightness or darkness in the eyes, not necessarily any other color?

Brandon Sanderson

It's not like it is-- It's not like it's saying "Light minus 50%".

Questioner

It's not like Honor is blue and--

Brandon Sanderson

No. It is not. It is just kind of the way that the changes the Stormlight is making the body and certain people are already descended from people who had repeated, over time, changes by the body which stopped physically... That's not to say that all lighteyes that's where they came from. There are some that are natural mutations.

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

Quote

Questioner

Is the power of the bond between humans and spren, the Nahel bond, or from the swords—the existing Shardblades—that causes the eyes to turn light?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

Quote

Darkness (paraphrased)

When a darkeyed person obtains a Shardblade. Does their new eye color reflect the specific type of blade they bonded?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Supanova 2017 - Sydney (June 16, 2017)

Oathbringer Ch 43:

Quote

Setting his jaw, Moash pressed his hand to the gemstone, and willed the bond to break. The gemstone at its pommel flashed, and he felt an icy coolness wash through him. Back to being a darkeyes.

He tossed the Blade to the ground. 

 

We know Moash's eyes reverted to their original color - so just bonding a Blade won't make the change permanent (possibly until you have had the bond long enough - his was only weeks old). And we know that the Honorblade Bond affected Szeth's eyes, but only while the sword was summoned. The WoB implies that if you are bonded to a blade, then the change is inheritible because that aspect of your Spiritweb was changed while the bond exists.

Hope that helps

Edited November 26, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG

[alder24]

5 hours ago, MasterK-Bob said:

I searched through arcanum before posting this but perhaps I couldn't think of good search terms. My question is, do we know about shard-blade bonding and inheritance? Like if someone is dark-eyed and then bond a shard and become light-eyed, and then they marry a light eyed person, would all of their kids be light-eyed, because that's what's in their current shard-bonded "operative DNA" or would half or more be dark-eyed because that's what's in their (dominant) genes? How about if they marry a darkeyes? Would any of their kids be light-eyed? Would it be at the same ratio as any darkeyes light-eyes pairing? Has Brandon ever answered this?

I couldn't find any direct answer to this, but as far as I understand it bonding a Shardblade makes you permanently a lighteye and those light eyes would be then passed on to Shardbearer's kids. All of their kids would be lighteye after bonding a Shardblade.

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

I believe @alder24 is correct. It would take serious digging, but i believe this is answered in-book (possibly from the Radiant crystal library...? Idk)

Essentially, the source of the genetically lighteyed ruling-class of people on Roshar is the spren and deadblade bonding process. Prior to the formation of the knights radiant, eye color was not tied to socioeconomic standing. I believe it's left ambiguous whether or not lighteyed people ever existed within the population naturally, however, the Bond specifically treats the changes in eye color as inheritable to align with how medieval humans treat power and social class as inheritable. While this might seem kinda messed up, it is merely a relic of the spren once again merely emulating what they see already happening and fitting in with humanity as best and completely as they can.

So...yes, if either person in a couple bonds a deadblade or a spren, all of their children shall have at least one light-colored eye. Additionally, due to the fact that spren shamelessly follow Rosharan politics, if a lot of members of your family Bond spren, more spren will be politically inclined to approach the other members independently.

With that said...Roshar needs democracy, and Jasnah cannot bring it to them fast enough in my opinion. Their society is horrifyingly broken and charging at a brick wall at lightning speed and they literally don't even have words and language skills in-world to describe why. 

Their language for articulating leadership is one which implies genetic dominance and divine right based on arbitrary decisions made by people millenia ago and they've just...been marching in place ever since.

[MasterK-Bob he/him]

It's not a permanent change though. As soon as the bond with his shard-blade is broken Moash's eyes go back to dark, much faster than they turned light (immediately if I recall.) I presume if he had begotten children while the blade was bonded and his eyes were light, upon a light eyed woman, the children would have been light-eyed. With a dark eyed woman, I'm not sure the outcome, but I'm not confident they would all have had one light eye. Heterochromia is usually a more complex mutation.

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

44 minutes ago, MasterK-Bob said:

It's not a permanent change though. As soon as the bond with his shard-blade is broken Moash's eyes go back to dark, much faster than they turned light (immediately if I recall.) I presume if he had begotten children while the blade was bonded and his eyes were light, upon a light eyed woman, the children would have been light-eyed. With a dark eyed woman, I'm not sure the outcome, but I'm not confident they would all have had one light eye. Heterochromia is usually a more complex mutation.

Yeah, it works exactly like you think it does, yes. Produce a child while lighteyed=children with at least one lighteye. Produce a child while darkeyed=very high probability of darkeyed children. It's...not scientific in any sense of the word, this is magically fantastical genetics that are 100% subject to perception and the rule of cool. Alethi hair coloring and height inheritance are similarly weird if you REALLY wanna open Pandoras box...

Basically, on Alethkar, Investiture (money) can make you taller, give you a different skin color, naturally different hair color, totally random and bonkers eye color combinations, and also make you immune to all disease. Tis...a very silly and wonderful place.

[+robardin he/him]

On 11/23/2024 at 5:00 PM, Lewis Nethur said:

Roshar needs democracy, and Jasnah cannot bring it to them fast enough in my opinion. Their society is horrifyingly broken and charging at a brick wall at lightning speed and they literally don't even have words and language skills in-world to describe why. 

Their language for articulating leadership is one which implies genetic dominance and divine right based on arbitrary decisions made by people millenia ago and they've just...been marching in place ever since.

Not "arbitrary decisions", but "taking up Shardblades" without the Nahel bond that required living up to the Immortal Words.

Those who seized upon the now freely available dead Blades and Plate in the wake of the Recreance, like what Dalinar saw at Feverstone Keep, would then rule by strength of those arms. Their eyes eventually permanently changed colors like the those of the Radiants had done, their children inherited that, and well, there you are.

As for not having the language to even articulate how wrong that is, I thought Dalinar expressed it well in his rant to Wit, even before he bonded the Stormfather to become a Bondsmith:

Quote

"No, Wit. We failed. We crushed, we killed, and we have failed miserably. ... In taking the throne by force, we implied -- no, we screamed -- that strength is the right of rule. ... These are the fruits of my youth, Wit. It is why we need more than tyranny, even the benevolent kind, to transform this kingdom. That is what Nohadon was teaching."