MarcieIsForager She/They Posted November 5, 2024 Posted November 5, 2024 (edited) So i just followed a thought tangent and got some really weird results. This is based partially on revelations by the sibling. It started out with me trying to place Nohadons lifetime cause i really liked the theory of Nohadon being the cognitive shadow in the SF and not Tanavast so i layed out the timeline as i understand it and there some really interesting stuff in there. So first off Honors death preparations must have happened before Aharietiam not just before the Recreance Cause Syls Radiant actually fought in the desolations. This could also add to the Stormfather saying he broke the Heralds cause by guess he wouldve been around close to his current form from likely before Aherietiam. And mightve played a part in the Heralds abondoning the Oathpact. Then at least some of the herals had to have been ageless prior to becoming Heralds Ishar was probably a dawnshard i would guess. Then if Nohadon actually lived (my guess is it would be some centuries after the siblings birth) to see thunderclasts during his lifetime (Dalinars extra vision), the singer souls must have fully deteriorated in a span of some millenium and a half i guess: This would mean Odium arriving with Human 7500 years ago -> Humans conquer all of roshar (i gave that some 500 years but it couldve been quicker) -> sibling is born 6000 years ago -> again i guessed 500 year gap for urithiru to gain the notoriety it has and also place Nohadons lifetime somewhere around there. Im sure i missed a lot of implications if someone with a bit more time on their hand could look over the timeline and add thing this could be really interesting cause im pretty sure the timeline we got now is mostly wrong or at least doesn't add up at all Edited November 5, 2024 by MarcieIsForager
alder24 Posted November 5, 2024 Posted November 5, 2024 3 hours ago, MarcieIsForager said: So first off Honors death preparations must have happened before Aharietiam not just before the Recreance Cause Syls Radiant actually fought in the desolations. No. Syl's Radiant and Syl herself were both fighting during the False Desolation, when BAM connected herself to all Singers and gave them forms of powers without Voidspren, Fused and Odium. This happened shortly before the Recreance and ended when Mishram was imprisoned, 2,500 years after Aharietiam. This was also the first time when Radiants noticed that something was off with Honor and Honor himself was changing. OB ch 67 epigraphs: Quote "This generation has had only one Bondsmith, and some blame the divisions among us upon this fact. The true problem is far deeper. I believe that Honor himself is changing." OB ch 113: Quote In the past, Honor was able to guard against this, the Stormfather told him. He convinced the Radiants they were righteous, even if this land hadn’t originally been theirs. Who cares what your ancestors did, when the enemy is trying to kill you right now? But in the days leading to the Recreance, Honor was dying. When that generation of knights learned the truth, Honor did not support them. He raved, speaking of the Dawnshards, ancient weapons used to destroy the Tranquiline Halls. Honor … promised that Surgebinders would do the same to Roshar. 3 hours ago, MarcieIsForager said: Then at least some of the herals had to have been ageless prior to becoming Heralds Ishar was probably a dawnshard i would guess. It's unknown if Ishar was a Dawnshard in the past, although it's possible. However, most Heralds stopped aging when they became Heralds and their current look indicates how old they were when this happened. All Heralds. with the possible exception of Ash, were born on Ashyn and they all aged normally before they became Heralds. Spoiler Questioner I have a bit of a problem with the first Desolation timeline. I'm wondering how old were the Heralds when they became Heralds. Brandon Sanderson The age that you would see them as when you met them. They basically are the age they look. When they became Heralds, they are the age that they appeared. Questioner So they were like in their younger middle age? Brandon Sanderson Some of them. I mean Ishar is older. Questioner So that means that the entire timeline of the first Desolation happened within a single lifetime? Brandon Sanderson A lot of the ancient chronologies are wrong and you won't get the actual answers until the Heralds themselves explain it in their flashback sequences in the back five. Questioner You've said that the Heralds came over from Ashyn. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Questioner Okay. How old were they then? Brandon Sanderson Younger than they were when they became Heralds. Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019) Spoiler Willshaper Wallar ...Were the Heralds alive for the human exodus from Ashyn? Brandon Sanderson Yes. They were not Heralds then, but they all made that trip. I believe. My timeline-- You can't nail me down on that one, because it's possible that Ash was born after, but I don't think so. Skyward Denver signing (Nov. 15, 2018) 3 hours ago, MarcieIsForager said: Then if Nohadon actually lived (my guess is it would be some centuries after the siblings birth) to see thunderclasts during his lifetime (Dalinars extra vision), the singer souls must have fully deteriorated in a span of some millenium and a half i guess (my placement of nohadons lifetime), so the heralds would have held out a bit longer which might be kind of interesting tidbit. Nohadon most likely lived before Knights Radiants were established by Ishar, but after Spren started bonding and giving Surgebinding to people. This means he lived before the 6th Epoch (when SayTheWords and the first mention of Radiants were recorded) if not earlier. For comparison the Starfall vision from WoK ch 19 happened in the year 337 of the 8th Epoch. WoK ch 60: Quote He had thought that this vision must come after his previous one, but prior visions hadn’t been chronological. He hadn’t seen any Knights Radiant yet, but that might not be because they had disbanded. Perhaps they didn’t exist yet. He most likely lived hundreds, if not more than a thousand years before Aharietiam, but after the Sibling was created as Urithiru already existed back then. So at most 6,000 years ago, which is 4,000 years before the Recreance and the death of Honor. That's a long, long time. That's why I'm skeptical that it's Nohadon who is the CS merged with the Stormfather. Timeline simply doesn't fit. Sure, Nohadon might have temporarily Ascended to Honor and then became a Sliver (as per Hoid's story about moons), thus he could have become a permanent Cognitive Shadow, but he would still have to wait for 4,000 years to merge with the Stormfather. He didn't hold the Shard of Honor when Honor died, it was Tanavast. However, in the Hoid's story it wasn't blue Nomon (Honor's moon) who switched places with Queen Tsa, it was green Mishim (Cultivation's moon) who did that - this story doesn't match this theory because it talks about a different event. 3
MarcieIsForager She/They Posted November 5, 2024 Author Posted November 5, 2024 21 minutes ago, alder24 said: No. Syl's Radiant and Syl herself were both fighting during the False Desolation, when BAM connected herself to all Singers and gave them forms of powers without Voidspren, Fused and Odium. This happened shortly before the Recreance and ended when Mishram was imprisoned, 2,500 years after Aharietiam. This was also the first time when Radiants noticed that something was off with Honor and Honor himself was changing. OB ch 67 epigraphs: Hey do you by chance have the citation on it being the false desolation i dont have the book with me rn i just went off the coppermind article on relador that just used the word "desolations" with that i tbh just assumed that meant desolations proper and not just the false desolation. And tbf on the point of radiant noticing the change only prior to the recreance, Leras also took super long to like fully unravel so it wouldn't be weird for him to only show fraying millenia after the event. His death-event then by my estimation wouldve happened some 4500 - 5000 years ago and the actual death at the recreance or just after. I wouldn't be suprised if he managed to hold out those 2500 years and only full frayed just at the recreance. Leras death was also kind of exponential. A lot of centuries of minor unravels and then a few years of completely fraying. I think its in line with long shard death
alder24 Posted November 5, 2024 Posted November 5, 2024 29 minutes ago, MarcieIsForager said: Hey do you by chance have the citation on it being the false desolation i dont have the book with me rn i just went off the coppermind article on relador that just used the word "desolations" with that i tbh just assumed that meant desolations proper and not just the false desolation. Syl was among the very first generation created by the Stormfather after Honor passed this task onto him, shortly before his death. Others died during the Recreance, Syl's knight died before that and this spared her from becoming a Deadeye. Yes, this happened during the False Desolation, not before. OB ch 108: Quote “Well, sometime before his death, Honor stopped creating honorspren. We don’t know why, but he asked the Stormfather to do it instead.” [...] “The Stormfather created only a handful of children. All of these, save Sylphrena, were destroyed in the Recreance, becoming deadeyes. This loss stung the Stormfather, who didn’t create again for centuries. When he was finally moved to remake the honorspren, he created only ten more. My greatgrandmother was among them; she created my grandfather, who created my father, who eventually created me." Coppermind on Syl: Quote Sylphrena was born some time before the Day of Recreance. She was one of the first honorspren to be created by Stormfather rather than Honor.[3] Although she was too young to form a Nahel bond, she did so anyway with a man named Relador.[6][4] He took part in only one battle before dying, which sent Syl into a state of deep slumber. This led to everyone assuming she had passed away, but it also saved her from becoming a deadeye during the Recreance, as befell with so many of her siblings.[3] 43 minutes ago, MarcieIsForager said: And tbf on the point of radiant noticing the change only prior to the recreance, Leras also took super long to like fully unravel so it wouldn't be weird for him to only show fraying millenia after the event. His death-event then by my estimation wouldve happened some 4500 - 5000 years ago and the actual death at the recreance or just after. I wouldn't be suprised if he managed to hold out those 2500 years and only full frayed just at the recreance. Leras death was also kind of exponential. A lot of centuries of minor unravels and then a few years of completely fraying. I think its in line with long shard death And nobody during those 4000 years noticed that Honor's Vessel changed? It took the Sibling just a short peak into Odium's Tone to know that it has a new Vessel. Everybody would have known that Honor's changed hands, Hoid included. He knew Tanavast well, he eventually would have noticed Honor switched hands. Well, he didn't, he refers to Honor as Tanavast, he knows Tanavast was Honor's Vessel and died holding Honor, not Nohadon. Kalak also is certain that Honor, which he refers to as Tanavast as well, is dead and the Stormfather is now Tanavest's Cognitive Shadow. RoW ch 82: Quote “Your current battle? Against Odium?” Kelek laughed. “Boy, you’re doomed. You realize that, right? Tanavast is dead. Like, completely dead. The Oathpact is broken somehow. The only thing left is to try to get off the ship before it sinks.” RoW ch 87: Quote “This is a good point,” Kelek said, leaning forward. “The Stormfather is all we have left of old Tanavast. I would not have thought to find his Bondsmith again, no indeed.” I think people missed why we have epigraphs talking about abdication - it's not because Nohadon Ascended to Honor after Tanavast "abdicated," it's because Dalinar needs to learn to abdicate, to give up his power and let other rule, to foreshadow that he might give up the power of Honor - he is already considering this option. Somehow, people jumped to the conclusion that Nohadon died as Honor's Vessel. Timeline doesn't fit, the Mishim story doesn't fit, and many contradicted this because they know Tanavast died holding Honor, not someone else. WaT ch 25: Quote "If, after the contest, the power is changing me too much, I will find another and give it to them.” “Is that allowed?” she asked, glancing to Wit. “Technically, yes,” he said. “But it is extremely difficult to do. Once you are a god, Dalinar, it is nearly impossible to let go.” “Surely it has been done,” Dalinar said. Wit grew distant, a faint smile on his lips. “Once. It wasn’t a full Ascension, but a mortal did give up the power once. It proved to be the wrong choice, but it was the most selfless thing I believe I’ve ever witnessed. So yes, Dalinar, it is possible. But not easy.” 2
LewsTherinTelescope Posted November 5, 2024 Posted November 5, 2024 2 minutes ago, alder24 said: it's because Dalinar needs to learn to abdicate, to give up his power and let other rule, to foreshadow that he might give up the power of Honor - he is already considering this option. The idea of leaving also seems to be a theme building in general: Dalinar is considering abdicating the Shard (as you say) Kaladin likely isn't coming back The Iriali dip out in Dyel's interlude Sigzil presumably gives up his oaths The Wind vanishes The Heralds vanish Spren potentially become less common Hoid almost certainly learns how to get offworld and other Radiants potentially do too We'll learn the last secrets of the Recreance Epigraphs It's fascinating to me that this is happening in the Skybreaker book given Nale is the one to command the right of travel... Perhaps the Skybreakers include a sort of "social contract"-inspired dichotomy regarding the law in the same way the Willshapers both tear down and build up?
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