Is Shallan pregnant?

[the_archduke]

We know she and Adolin have been having a healthy marital relationship.  They are also feudal nobles raised to know the necessity of lines of succession.  

Sja Anat (who casually mentions that she can see souls) tells Shallan:

"I am on the side of preserving a world for my children. You should not fear “my side,” Shallan. You should embrace it. If there is room for my children, there will be room for yours."

In the previous chapter, Hoid talks about caring for infants.  

When writing the Wheel of Time, I seem to recall Brandon commented on how writing pregnant Elayne was awkward.  Since we are going to have a time jump after this book, he can avoid this.  We could have Adolin and Shallan's kids as characters starting in book 6.

[Ninth of the Night]

I mean it's not unlikely. Sja-anat could have just been referring to humanity as a whole, or Shallan's future kids. Even if she isn't pregnant right now, I'm sure it'll happen either by the end of this book or during the timeskip.

[bmcclure7]

7 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

We know she and Adolin have been having a healthy marital relationship.  They are also feudal nobles raised to know the necessity of lines of succession.  

Sja Anat (who casually mentions that she can see souls) tells Shallan:

"I am on the side of preserving a world for my children. You should not fear “my side,” Shallan. You should embrace it. If there is room for my children, there will be room for yours."

In the previous chapter, Hoid talks about caring for infants.  

When writing the Wheel of Time, I seem to recall Brandon commented on how writing pregnant Elayne was awkward.  Since we are going to have a time jump after this book, he can avoid this.  We could have Adolin and Shallan's kids as characters starting in book 6.

Certainly possible she is already married and presumably, sexually active. I don’t recall them having any particular on birth control yet in this world. So yes, it’s possible, likely even. 
 

Additionally, from a writing perspective, this should be the perfect time for her to be pregnant as that would make her child in his mid to early teens at the end of the time, a perfect age to start participating in the plot.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

Meh, it's possible but I don't think this is an indication of it. I also think that Adolin and Shallan are both pretty vocal about not wanting to be included in the line of succession themselves, so they probably don't spend a lot of time worrying about having an heir. At least not for that reason anyway.

[logicless.bt]

Given that there was a sex scene in this book already and some alluded to in the previous, I do think we'll see a new Kholin by the second arc. The kid is going to have the hair color of a Yugioh character

[the_archduke]

Adolin doesn't want to be the heir of Alethkar, but he's given no indication he doesn't expect his line to continue to rule the Kholin princedom.  

[The Sovereign]

6 minutes ago, logicless.bt said:

Given that there was a sex scene in this book already and some alluded to in the previous, I do think we'll see a new Kholin by the second arc. The kid is going to have the hair color of a Yugioh character

[LewsTherinTelescope]

Yeah I'm kinda expecting us to get a cliche "Adolin dies and Shallan finds out she's carrying his child". I hope it doesn't go down like that, but it's where the signs seem to point right now IMO.

[Ninth of the Night]

I'm confident that Brandon won't stoop to such a cliche. We need to see Adolin as a father. It's too wonderful of a future to pass up.

[the_archduke]

 

2 minutes ago, Ninth of the Night said:

I'm confident that Brandon won't stoop to such a cliche. We need to see Adolin as a father. It's too wonderful of a future to pass up.

I think this a point in favor of Adolin's survival, despite what a vocal minority on this site are hoping.

Edited October 28, 2024 by the_archduke

[The Sovereign]

39 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Yeah I'm kinda expecting us to get a cliche "Adolin dies and Shallan finds out she's carrying his child". I hope it doesn't go down like that, but it's where the signs seem to point right now IMO.

While I tend to agree with you on this, we recently had some pretty heavy handed hints regarding someone's fate in The Lost Metal. I think Brandon may be playing on our expectations here and laying some false breadcrumbs, or at least breadcrumbs that lead down the wrong path without more context.

[bmcclure7]

3 minutes ago, The Sovereign said:

While I tend to agree with you on this, we recently had some pretty heavy handed hints regarding someone's fate in The Lost Metal. I think Brandon may be playing on our expectations here and laying some false breadcrumbs, or at least breadcrumbs that lead down the wrong path without more context.

Who are you referring too?

[The Sovereign]

36 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Who are you referring too?

@LewsTherinTelescope, the person I quoted.

[Slayd_07]

I mean, Sja Anat is speaking very figuratively when she says her "children", I think she means "children" figuratively when she directs it at Shallan as well. My guess is she was referring to the Unseen Court - they certainly have a familial relationship with Shallan, and I think "children" is a decent metaphor for their relationship as knight/squires. 

[Ninth of the Night]

5 minutes ago, The Sovereign said:

@LewsTherinTelescope, the person I quoted.

He meant the character in Lost Metal you were talking about. I'm curious too, as I don't remember any such heavy hints.

Edited October 28, 2024 by Ninth of the Night

[the_archduke]

1 minute ago, Slayd_07 said:

 I think "children" is a decent metaphor for their relationship as knight/squires

Except the Lightweavers already have a safe/honored/respected place in the world.  And Lightweavers aren't treated as Shallan's children by anyone, younger siblings maybe.

[Slayd_07]

5 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

Except the Lightweavers already have a safe/honored/respected place in the world.  And Lightweavers aren't treated as Shallan's children by anyone, younger siblings maybe.

Yeah, it's not a perfect metaphor - but using children for her squires makes about as much sense as using children for Sja-Anat's enlightened spren. And while Lightweavers do have a place in Uirthiru, I don't think that Sja-Anat considers that a lasting safe place. If she thought that Urithiru was a safe place for her and her children, she wouldn't be doing this dance of allegiance between Odium, the Ghostbloods, and the Radiants. We can extrapolate from that, and assume that she doesn't think Urithiru and the Radiants are the best place for Shallan either.  

[The Sovereign]

25 minutes ago, Ninth of the Night said:

He meant the character in Lost Metal you were talking about. I'm curious too, as I don't remember any such heavy hints.

@bmcclure7 @Ninth of the Night Sorry, I'm struggling with my English a bit today... I thought you were asking "Who are you referring to in regards to "While I tend to agree with you on this..."

I was referring to:

Spoiler

Wayne, there is some pretty heavy foreshadowing throughout the book that he isn't going to make it to the end. The Prologue, his meeting with the accountants, several comments he both makes and that are seen in his interior monologue during his POVs, etc. Around the halfway point of TLM I was fairly sure Wayne was going to die... and then BOOM.

Edited October 28, 2024 by The Sovereign

[Ninth of the Night]

Ohh okay, I misunderstood your initial post and thought you meant a character who was hinted to die but didn't. My reading comprehension was taking a break I guess.

In that case I agree with you. False breadcrumbs sounds right to me for Adolin, especially considering it isn't just him getting death hints. Basically every main character gives off an impression of impending doom... Which, of course, makes thematic sense.

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, Slayd_07 said:

Yeah, it's not a perfect metaphor - but using children for her squires makes about as much sense as using children for Sja-Anat's enlightened spren. And while Lightweavers do have a place in Uirthiru, I don't think that Sja-Anat considers that a lasting safe place. If she thought that Urithiru was a safe place for her and her children, she wouldn't be doing this dance of allegiance between Odium, the Ghostbloods, and the Radiants. We can extrapolate from that, and assume that she doesn't think Urithiru and the Radiants are the best place for Shallan either.  

Actually, her calling them children makes sense when you think about it.  Sja-Anat we made them into something new re-created them, they are for extended purposes, New Spren. We often refer to some thing we created as are children so why you shouldn’t the spren? 
 

2 hours ago, The Sovereign said:

@bmcclure7 @Ninth of the Night Sorry, I'm struggling with my English a bit today... I thought you were asking "Who are you referring to in regards to "While I tend to agree with you on this..."

I was referring to:

  Hide contents

Wayne, there is some pretty heavy foreshadowing throughout the book that he isn't going to make it to the end. The Prologue, his meeting with the accountants, several comments he both makes and that are seen in his interior monologue during his POVs, etc. Around the halfway point of TLM I was fairly sure Wayne was going to die... and then BOOM.

I am a little confused. I thought you were saying that someone in lost metal was foreshadowed to die, but didn’t. And you were drawing a connection to the foreshadowing we have for Adolin’s death, is this not what you were saying?

 

 

[Ninth of the Night]

7 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

I am a little confused. I thought you were saying that someone in lost metal was foreshadowed to die, but didn’t. And you were drawing a connection to the foreshadowing we have for Adolin’s death, is this not what you were saying?

He was talking about Wayne. We misunderstood him. He's using that example from Lost Metal to contrast with what he thinks is going on with Adolin.

[The Sovereign]

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Actually, her calling them children makes sense when you think about it.  Sja-Anat we made them into something new re-created them, they are for extended purposes, New Spren. We often refer to some thing we created as are children so why you shouldn’t the spren? 
 

I am a little confused. I thought you were saying that someone in lost metal was foreshadowed to die, but didn’t. And you were drawing a connection to the foreshadowing we have for Adolin’s death, is this not what you were saying?

 

 

I was saying that in Lost Metal Brandon heavily foreshadowed a death and then followed through, so I wouldn't be surprised if he played on our expectations here and foreshadowed it to then surprised people by going in a different direction.

Edited October 28, 2024 by The Sovereign

[Sedside she/her]

I think that this Shallan pregnancy stuff is reading too much into it. I just don't see a point in making her pregnant now, I don't see how it can influence the narrative. If Adolin survives through this book, why do it now? There are 8 days left before the timeskip, why can't she get pregnant in, say, a month? What will it change? Just to add some more 'happy couple' scenes? In my opinion, there are already plenty of them in each of the books since WoR, I would definitely prefer this page space to be spent on something I haven't read enough yet. Like, maybe, happy Kaladin?

For the sake of pure analytical approach we can look at the other options. We can imagine one of them not to be happy to hear these news, but it looks like an unnecessary drama and not very Brandon thing to do? If Adolin dies on the good side and Shallan is left with his child, it looks too cliche. If Adolin dies on the dark side, it looks like even more drama and will probably require Shallan and her kid to have a decent amount of character development in back 5, which is not what is intended, I suppose. If Adolin joins the dark side and survives, so if he is a villain in back 5 and there is his child among the good guys, it could be interesting, but again too tropey and dramatic? He is Kholin, not Skywalker. And if they both join the dark side... Well, I don't think it would be a good message for the audience doing that with Shallan's character. Again, I'm looking at all of the options, regardless of how possible or preferable they are, and I don't see her pregnancy enhancing any of them.

[Philomath she/her]

1 hour ago, Sedside said:

I think that this Shallan pregnancy stuff is reading too much into it. I just don't see a point in making her pregnant now, I don't see how it can influence the narrative. If Adolin survives through this book, why do it now? There are 8 days left before the timeskip, why can't she get pregnant in, say, a month? What will it change? Just to add some more 'happy couple' scenes? In my opinion, there are already plenty of them in each of the books since WoR, I would definitely prefer this page space to be spent on something I haven't read enough yet. Like, maybe, happy Kaladin?

For the sake of pure analytical approach we can look at the other options. We can imagine one of them not to be happy to hear these news, but it looks like an unnecessary drama and not very Brandon thing to do? If Adolin dies on the good side and Shallan is left with his child, it looks too cliche. If Adolin dies on the dark side, it looks like even more drama and will probably require Shallan and her kid to have a decent amount of character development in back 5, which is not what is intended, I suppose. If Adolin joins the dark side and survives, so if he is a villain in back 5 and there is his child among the good guys, it could be interesting, but again too tropey and dramatic? He is Kholin, not Skywalker. And if they both join the dark side... Well, I don't think it would be a good message for the audience doing that with Shallan's character. Again, I'm looking at all of the options, regardless of how possible or preferable they are, and I don't see her pregnancy enhancing any of them.

I mean, you could have Adolin survive, stay on the good side, and embrace his opportunity to be a better father than his father was for most of his life. Healing generational trauma for both himself and the deadeyes would be pretty storming awesome imho. 

[Sedside she/her]

54 minutes ago, Philomath said:

I mean, you could have Adolin survive, stay on the good side, and embrace his opportunity to be a better father than his father was for most of his life. Healing generational trauma for both himself and the deadeyes would be pretty storming awesome imho. 

But he won't have the time to heal generational trauma. He will only have time to say or think it. And I just don't see how him thinking or saying it can bring anything valuable to his or someone else's arc.