"That I had changed you into someone who could bear this power with honor"

[Fyodor32768]

Cultivation says this to Taravangian after he ascends. I wonder if this a bit of a double entendre?

WoB has reiterated a few times that Rayse never too any other shards because he knew it would change him and he wanted to stay Odium.  But Taravangian isn't as sophisticated and isn't as ideologically attached to being Odium.

And now Cultivation has leaked the location of Honor's power to Dalinar. Is it possible that she's trying instead to get Taravangian to take it up, effectively crippling/binding him the way that say Harmony is bound. Or if not bound restricted and controlled by his second shard?

[logicless.bt]

It's absolutely possible! People theorize that Odium + Honor could create Justice, Vengeance, or War (given that Voidlight and Stormlight together are referred to as Warlight). It would justify a Cosmere-wide war, with Justice trying to destroy other Shards due to his vision of justice.

[Master Silver]

Divine Wrath+ Divine Honor= Divine Justice. An atonement must be made for sin. Thus, the blood of the gods who have failed mankind shall be required of them. 

[BinarySecond]

18 hours ago, Master Silver said:

Divine Wrath+ Divine Honor= Divine Justice. An atonement must be made for sin. Thus, the blood of the gods who have failed mankind shall be required of them. 

Oh that's good. I think it adds credence to Honor being added to Taravangian forcefully as it adds to his current intent.

[+Child of Hodor]

4 minutes ago, BinarySecond said:

Oh that's good. I think it adds credence to Honor being added to Taravangian forcefully as it adds to his current intent.

On 10/26/2024 at 10:01 PM, Fyodor32768 said:

Cultivation says this to Taravangian after he ascends. I wonder if this a bit of a double entendre?

WoB has reiterated a few times that Rayse never too any other shards because he knew it would change him and he wanted to stay Odium.  But Taravangian isn't as sophisticated and isn't as ideologically attached to being Odium.

And now Cultivation has leaked the location of Honor's power to Dalinar. Is it possible that she's trying instead to get Taravangian to take it up, effectively crippling/binding him the way that say Harmony is bound. Or if not bound restricted and controlled by his second shard?

It would definitely make the shard more reasonable. Wrath that only gets unleashed on people who violate a code or something like that. Question is whether not wanting to pick up another Shard was a Rayse thing or an Odium thing. This Shard has enough of a mind of its own to speak to Taravangian "You're perfect" after Rayse died I wouldn't think that goes away after a few days. If the Shard is the one that doesn't want to change I wonder if Taravangian will be able to wrangle it into allowing him to pick up another Shard. 

Or maybe Dalinar forces the bond on him "tag, you're it!". 

[Master Silver]

And what might make this more terrifying, and here me out. Both Dalinar and Taravangian have been touched by Cultivation, making them ripe for growth. One to bear the Shards and one to be the Avatar of that Shard. Dalinar and Taravangian agree on principles but not methodology.There is a chapter in Oathbringer that discusses this. Dalinar says to imprison all three men, Taravangian says to execute all three men. Also, part of Taravangian and part of Dalinar always wished they had been truly allied. There is actually nothing to stop this now that between the two of them they hold all the cards. The scariest outcome for everyone else in the Cosmere is not that Taravangian wins, or that Dalinar somehow takes up Odium and Honor, but that Taravangian takes Gavilar's spot and Dalinar agrees to be his sword either by choice or by losing the contest. So, you have the Shard of Justice, and the Avatar of War, and because it is being executed by a shard, it is by definition a holy war. 

[OoklaApologist She/her]

On 10/26/2024 at 10:01 PM, Fyodor32768 said:

Is it possible that she's trying instead to get Taravangian to take it up, effectively crippling/binding him the way that say Harmony is bound. Or if not bound restricted and controlled by his second shard?

Wasn't it that when Rodium made the duel agreement, it was with Dalinar acting as a representative of Honor? So, if Taravangian gained possesion of both Honor and Odium, wouldn't he have the power to modify the terms of the duel on behalf of Odium and on behalf of Honor, or maybe even appoint both sides of the duel? What would that be like?

[CtrlAltDepressed]

1 hour ago, KelsierApologist said:

What would that be like?

My best guess is that he would be in conflict with himself, since he would be unable to adhere to both sides of the contract. 

 

This would create a vulnerability that Cultivation could exploit if she so chose. 

[Fyodor32768]

So this turned out to be right, though apparently not Cultivation's plan and not restrictive of Hodium the way that I'd expect. I'm guessing that the wording was still foreshadowing.

I had always kind of understood Honor and Odium to be more in the way of antagonists, with Odium being about yielding to your emotion and desires and Honor being about sublimating them to a higher purpose, but apparently that was not correct.

[teknopathetic he/him]

Do we know it wasn’t cultivation’s plan? She very well could have been playing a long game. She sees the future better than odium or honour after all. Cultivation wanted to leave without having her creations destroyed, and that’s exactly what she got.

I think the most shocking thing we learned in the flashbacks is that Cultivation never wanted to be on Roshar in the first place. She just didn’t care and wasn’t all that invested in it. Knowing that, I think her whole plan was making a way to get out of Roshar all the while forcing other Shards to finally take up the banner against him. 

Edited December 10, 2024 by teknopathetic

[BinarySecond]

With all Dalinar's talk of Growth towards the end I really was expecting a Cultivation + Honour mash up.