Can Taravangian Use Hoid’s Dawnshard for Cosmere Conquest?

[Confused]

I first raised this issue as part of a long post on another thread. No one commented on the idea (I hope because I buried it). I think it’s interesting enough to amplify and present in a separate post.

Hoid’s Dawnshard has “an Intent that is diametrically opposed to violence and harm” [Coppermind on Hoid’s Dawnshard, citing TSM Chapter 21]. Taravangian cannot tolerate feeling the cosmere’s misery and wants to make himself the One God to stop it. If Taravangian can find this Dawnshard, could he or his proxy use it to conquer the cosmere?

Suppose the Dawnshard can have planet-wide effect like the one on Ashyn did. Taravangian or his proxy could use the Dawnshard to pacify native populations. Rather than violent planet conquest, the Dawnshard could render the planet’s population incapable of imposing violence on others. The planet’s people would be forced to surrender. They’d all be turned into a sapient form of Parshmen, intelligent but incapable of resisting their conquerors. The end of war and violence is one way to cure the cosmere and its people of misery. Deny people only some choice - the ability to oppose Odium by violent means.

I speculate Taravangian sends his Fused to the Shattered Plains because he thinks that’s where the Dawnshard is. Sigzil and his Radiants head there for battle. I predict that Hoid will recover the Dawnshard before Taravangian’s forces find it and give the Dawnshard to Sigzil. That sets up the TSM narrative.

Or not...

[Wanguu He/Him]

That would create a sort of ironic way to resolve the issue; sure, you can't punch your neighbor Joe, but you can burn down his house. Children can still starve, they just won't fight for food. This wouldn't fix any of the institutional things that Odium was talking about, but I don't think that Odium is fit to fix those, anyways. Either way, wouldn't Change be more useful to someone seeking to conquer?

[Malim he/him]

4 hours ago, Confused said:

I speculate Taravangian sends his Fused to the Shattered Plains because he thinks that’s where the Dawnshard is. Sigzil and his Radiants head there for battle. I predict that Hoid will recover the Dawnshard before Taravangian’s forces find it and give the Dawnshard to Sigzil. That sets up the TSM narrative.

Or not...

Agreed.

TSM spoilers

Spoiler

The Night Brigade is hunting Sigzil on the trail of this very Dawnshard.  They are described as mainly a mercenary force.  Could it be that TOdium is the one that put out the contract for this very reason?  He can't directly go after Sigzil because he hasn't given himself to Odium, so perhaps he needs intermediaries. 

Whether or not the Dawnshard would actually work in this way is speculative, but TOdium might very well believe it to do so.

[The Stick]

I have a few trepidations on this theory.

Primarily, my point would be the question of why did Rayse not go after this Dawnshard. I sincerely doubt that Taravangian somehow knows about this, but Rayse did not.

While you could argue that Rayse would not want the Dawnshard for this purpose, if that is indeed what it does, I think this argument doesn't really work. The main thing I consider is if Rayse knew there was a Dawnshard, a Cosmere Superweapon, he would not allow it to rot in the Shattered Plains for no good reason. 

Therefore, while this theory has a direction I like, I don't this that Todium sent the Shattered Plains force to claim a Dawnshards. Now, if they discover it while fighting, I think he will go after it, but I doubt it is the cause.

[Ashbringer he/him]

Nomad repeatedly describes his Dawnshard as a weapon that could end worlds - while it may be used as so, a way to pacify a force before conquering them - I wouldn’t be surprised if it could be used in more directly dangerous ways.

[Unhurried he/him]

Hopping on the Change bandwagon  -

15 hours ago, Wanguu said:

Either way, wouldn't Change be more useful to someone seeking to conquer?

I'm surprised we haven't seen much of anything of Rsyn since Dawnshard, even though she was on good speaking terms with Navani, Radiants and Thaylenah highups. I wonder if Sanderson is saving her for a reveal in this book - perhaps as part of the Thaylen battle scenes - setting us up for a twist if TOdium is trying to secure her Dawnshard as well.

Given TOdiums wider impulse to leave no challengers, it would make sense that he's trying at minimum to remove the Dawnshards from competitors, even if there are limitations on what he can do. Hence Shattered Plains to capture Hoid/Sig's, Thaylenah to capture Ryan's, and perhaps Azimir for one of the unknown ones? That way, even if he doesn't manage to hold the cities long enough to "win" under the contract, he's still achieved something significantly worth the risk?

[Wanguu He/Him]

Continuing from @Unhurried - I feel that introducing Hoid's Dawnshard would be a little awkward narratively, when we had a whole novella setting up this other one (which has had no payoff yet). I do firmly believe that the Change Dawnshard will be brought up here. There's also no telling that Hoid's Dawnshard is even on Roshar right now.

However, to play devil's advocate, we do know that Zellion gets the dawnshard from Hoid eventually, so unless Zellion leaves Roshar to get it, Hoid would've had to bring it in system. 

Either way, I do hope a dawnshard is used at some point. I had thought that the Change shard could be used to either unite the splinters of honor, or to change the intent of Odium/

[morcey2]

2 hours ago, Wanguu said:

Either way, I do hope a dawnshard is used at some point. I had thought that the Change shard could be used to either unite the splinters of honor, or to change the intent of Odium/

My own pet theory, although I think it's is unlikely, is that Shallan & Co. get the gem containing BAM from the SR.  They bring it back and at the moment they break it open, Rysn uses the Change Dawnshard to "Remake"  BAM into what they were before being unmade.  Dalinar or Navani would provide the investiture depending on where it actually happens. 

From the Coppermind on the Change Dawnshard.

Quote

It seems to not merely be change but some sort of positive change, and when it is absorbed by someone they are in some way Remade.^[1]

I think that BAM was a major spren of Roshar before being unmade and possibly one of the Old Gods/Dawncity spren as has been referenced in other theories.  She is remade and in the process creates a second "urithiru" in one of the old dawncities  giving the radiants a backup in case Urithiru takes flight or is destroyed when the Sibling is unmade or something else catastrophic happens.  BAM's Connection to Roshar and the radiant spren un-deadeye the deadeyes. 

Yeah, it's kinda off the wall, but who knows. 

Matt

[Malim he/him]

Probably a silly question, but has it ever been proven that Hoid's Dawnshard and the Change Dawnshard are different? Brandon seems to have firmly RAFO'd this, example below:

Quote

Simon

1) Is Hoid still holding his Dawnshard?

2) If not, is the Dawnshard currently hold by Rysn the same as Hoid's or a different?

3) Nikli mentions 4 Dawnshards. Are there more than that?

4) Are all the Dawnshards currently (as of SA 4) on Roshar? Or in the Rosharan System?

5) Are there some of them on worlds we have already seen (Scadrial, Sel, Threnody, etc...)?

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid Dawnshard is a RAFO.

Same.

There are only four Dawnshards.

RAFO on whether they're on this planet or not.

These are great questions, but Dawnshard info is mostly for the future cosmere books--and so I consider most of it very RAFOy.

Brandon Sanderson

"Same," here meant RAFO. I answer these quickly, I'm afraid, particularly when they come in a list like that.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406/#e14592

Granted Rysn and Nomad's experiences have a very different feel to me, but we also haven't had much screen time with Rysn since she obtained hers.

Edited October 10, 2024 by Malim
Messed up on the quote.

[Ashbringer he/him]

It's possible, I imagine. But Nomad's lockdown seems like the opposite of Change to me.

Though we still don't know the exact Command of Rysn's or Nomad's - Rysn's is probably Change, while Nomad's is... Life? Remain? Idk.

[alder24]

On 10/9/2024 at 10:32 PM, Confused said:

I speculate Taravangian sends his Fused to the Shattered Plains because he thinks that’s where the Dawnshard is. Sigzil and his Radiants head there for battle. I predict that Hoid will recover the Dawnshard before Taravangian’s forces find it and give the Dawnshard to Sigzil. That sets up the TSM narrative.

The problem with this is that Sigzil was 38 when he stopped aging - when he became the Dawnshard. He even had gray hair before that. Right now he doesn't look or sound that old at all, he has thick black hair with no sign of gray in them, however nowhere in books was his age specified. Personally I don't think he's older than 30 years. TSM ch 11:

Quote

Storms. He knew that he looked a lot younger with the grey no longer appearing in his hair, but young twenties? He’d been thirty-eight when time had finally stopped tracking him, his soul bending under the Dawnshard’s influence—and that was by his planet’s accounting, which had longer years than most.

Because of that I'm quite certain he won't become Dawnshard in WaT. And if he won't be a Dawnshard by the end of WaT, I highly doubt Dawnshard will play any role in this book.

And another problem with this is that If Hoid's Dawnshard is on Roshar, wouldn't it mean there are 3 Dawnshards in total on Roshar? Honor said "without the Dawnshards" indicating there are more than 1 Dawnshards on Roshar. We know of  Change Dawnshard, there were some speculation that the Danwshard described in WoK ch 36 epigraphs, the one "known to bind any creation voidish or mortal" is a separate Dawnshard hidden somewhere on Roshar, likely with the name Bind and now you proposing that Hoid hid on Roshar a third Dawnshard. That's way too many Dawnshards on one planet if you ask me. WoK ch 75:

Quote

“I wish I could do more,” repeated the gure in gold. “You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are. A champion could work well for you, but it is not certain. And … without the Dawnshards … Well, I have done what I can. It is a terrible, terrible thing to leave you alone.

WoK ch 36 epigraphs:

Quote

"Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above."

If there are three Dawnshards on Roshar, why go for Hoid's Dawnshard, the one that should be the most secretive as hidden specifically by Hoid and probably never used on Roshar before?

Edited October 13, 2024 by alder24