Possible Contract "Loophole" - Preview Chapter Spoilers

[Lenth]

I feel like it's obvious Odium has another trick up his sleeve, besides the loophole Wit discovered.

So, one thought I had was inspired by the Sibling saying that their Light "makes the Radiants here virtually invincible."

Add to that my theory that the way Dalinar has set himself up to fail, as Odium says, is that there is no provision in the contract for what would happen in the case of a draw. I'm not sure how that would happen, but here's my unlikely, probably-not-going-to-happen theory.

The contract states that the champions must meet at the top of Urithiru. So, what if Urithiru has no top? Just send some Skybreakers in there with some supercharged Division and bam, the top of Urithiru is now impossible as a site for a contest. 

Again, I don't think this is the direction things will go, but I would still like to bring it up to get some gears turning.

[RefusesToElaborate]

I think you're right that he does have another trick.

 

There is a loophole that gets Odium out of the deal and binding on roshar entirely, if you pay attention.

Though, it does require him winning the contest.

The contest of champions is a lose/lose for Odium regardless of outcome, so long as the Radiant team upholds their end of the contract. I propose that Odiums only way to eke out the win he wants is to force the opposition to violate the contract.

From memory the terms are two willung champions meet atop Urithuru to fight to the death. Should Odiums win, Odium is bound to roshar for a millennium and gets control of Roshar and Dalinar as a fused warrior. Should Dalinars champion win, Odium is bound to Braize and does not attain control. Either way, this is a lose as both Odiums want to be free on the cosmic scale.

Quote

“Final terms are these: A contest of champions to the death. On the tenth day of the month Palah, tenth hour. We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces. If I win that contest, you will remain bound to the system—but you will return Alethkar and Herdaz to me, with all of their occupants intact. You will vow to cease hostilities and maintain the peace, not working against my allies or our kingdoms in any way.”

“Agreed,” Odium said. “But if I win, I keep everything I’ve won—including your homeland. I still remain bound to this system, and will still cease hostilities as you said above. But I will have your soul. To serve me, immortal. Will you do this? Because I agree to these terms.”

“And I,” Dalinar whispered. “I agree to these terms.”

“It is done.”

As such the only true win, the win that Taravodium wants, the one that gets him out of the binding, is one that forces Dalinar to violate the contract, freeing Odium from it. A contract is just an agreement and agreements go both ways.

People have told me I'm wrong because "Brandon Sanderson wouldn't end the series like this" I say we aren't looking at Return of the Jedi here, we're looking at Empire Strikes Back.

Here is the only loophole I see that breaks the contract without harming Odium.

Odium wins the contest of champions. How? I feel it in my bones that he will be giving someone Yelig Nar and making the contest necessitate access to all surges. Which is where Szeth comes in who had already been trained on all Honorblades.

Szeth being Szeth, he loses. Who could possibly see that coming? /s

Dalinar will be a fused Warrior. So far the contract is upheld. Odium immediately whisks Dalianr away to Rathalas and orders him to piss on the ashes. Or something. The point is, Odium puts Dalinar through an order so heinous that Dalinar refuses.

When Dalinar refuses, the contract is broken. When the contract is broken, Odium is freed.

I put it to you, that if this isn't odiums plan, then the terms Odium and Dalinar have agreed on personally are of 0 consequence to the series plotline. It is the only outcome that breaks the contract, and therefore the binding.

[Rorzikel]

24 minutes ago, RefusesToElaborate said:

I put it to you, that if this isn't odiums plan, then the terms Odium and Dalinar have agreed on personally are of 0 consequence to the series plotline. It is the only outcome that breaks the contract, and therefore the binding.

That's not true, there's plenty of other contract breaking moves or things that weren't provided for.

• A tie occurring with a mutual kill.
• Goading someone like Gavinor into attacking a champion like Moash for revenge, thereby violating "We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces."
• Dalinar getting stuck in the Spiritual Realm (as Cultivation hints might be hard to get back from) and missing the match without naming a new champion.

[Ashbringer he/him]

I believe the Contract establishes that both sides must allow the champions to the top of Urithiru. The more obvious purpose of that statement is that the Coalition has to allow whoever Odium's champion is access to the top and not kill them along the way, and I think it would connect to not also disallow it by blowing up Urithiru.

But, it does lead to some interesting conundrums. For one thing, while I think Odium couldn't give the order to break the top of Urithiru, some third party like Mraize or even some disobedient Fused or Radiant perhaps could. Then you don't even have one party at fault for the failed location.

Similarly, the Coalition has to allow Odium's Champion to the top of the tower - but how much is allow? If Odium chooses some basic Fused, do they then have to turn off the Sibling's protections so that they can walk up the stairs without passing out? Similarly, is Odium allowed to try and kill Dalinar before the contest begins? 

 

These are the fun things that happen with off-the-cuff, verbal contracts 

[Sedside she/her]

Something we should keep in mind with all those loophole discussions is that the contest of champions is supposed to be the main climax of the first half of SA. It has to produce a huge emotional impact on the reader. In my opinion, any kind of verbalism or other trick or a simple tie would not serve this purpose. I think what we are searching for is Dalinar being forced to choose between three almost equally terrible options. The only way I see it happening is Odium's Champion being someone Dalinar would deeply regret killing. Like, for the rest of his life. And so his three options would be 1) refuse to fight and free Odium, 2) kill Odium's Champion and be crushed by guilt, 3) let himself be killed and leave almost the entire world in Odium's hands.

And no, I don't support baby champion theory. Unless we count grown-up babies 

[RandomCable he/him]

(Part of the loophole has been revealed to be that if one sides' forces claim the capital of a country, that side claims that entire country. Which is a big deal since the cut-off date is the day of the contest, meaning during the 10 days, TOdium can push for as many capitals as he can and get a disproportionally larger area of Roshar. Kind of like with the Capital Risk variation of the Risk strategy board game.)

[coolsnow7]

15 hours ago, Lenth said:

I feel like it's obvious Odium has another trick up his sleeve, besides the loophole Wit discovered.

So, one thought I had was inspired by the Sibling saying that their Light "makes the Radiants here virtually invincible."

Add to that my theory that the way Dalinar has set himself up to fail, as Odium says, is that there is no provision in the contract for what would happen in the case of a draw. I'm not sure how that would happen, but here's my unlikely, probably-not-going-to-happen theory.

The contract states that the champions must meet at the top of Urithiru. So, what if Urithiru has no top? Just send some Skybreakers in there with some supercharged Division and bam, the top of Urithiru is now impossible as a site for a contest. 

Again, I don't think this is the direction things will go, but I would still like to bring it up to get some gears turning.

Draws are not the loophole. 
 

Hoid is literally the inventor of the “draws are the loophole” strategy. 
 

If Hoid, the inventor of this strategy, failed to guard against it in the contract he himself wrote, much less failed to detect it when he was looking for loopholes, then we should all just stop reading Stormlight because Brandon thinks we’re dumber than rocks. 

[Rorzikel]

1 hour ago, coolsnow7 said:

Draws are not the loophole. 
 

Hoid is literally the inventor of the “draws are the loophole” strategy. 
 

If Hoid, the inventor of this strategy, failed to guard against it in the contract he himself wrote, much less failed to detect it when he was looking for loopholes, then we should all just stop reading Stormlight because Brandon thinks we’re dumber than rocks. 

Technically, whoever absolutely sideswiped Hoid originally with the draw move is the inventor of the "draws are the loophole" strategy. Hoid is definitely dumb as rocks if he loses twice this way.

[BinarySecond]

Sending Moash to walk through Urithiru is bold and I quite like that.

 

"We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces."

 

If Odium harms his own Champion does that mean he violated the contract? And the same is true for the reverse?

Edited October 7, 2024 by BinarySecond

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 10/6/2024 at 7:40 AM, Sedside said:

Something we should keep in mind with all those loophole discussions is that the contest of champions is supposed to be the main climax of the first half of SA. It has to produce a huge emotional impact on the reader. In my opinion, any kind of verbalism or other trick or a simple tie would not serve this purpose. I think what we are searching for is Dalinar being forced to choose between three almost equally terrible options. The only way I see it happening is Odium's Champion being someone Dalinar would deeply regret killing. Like, for the rest of his life. And so his three options would be 1) refuse to fight and free Odium, 2) kill Odium's Champion and be crushed by guilt, 3) let himself be killed and leave almost the entire world in Odium's hands.

Why does the outcome have to be terrible for Dalinar? Isn't it much better for the outcome being inacceptable for Roshar? Like Odium nominating Ba-Ado-Mishram and the Radiants learning what killing her would mean.

On 10/6/2024 at 3:18 PM, coolsnow7 said:

Draws are not the loophole. 
 

Hoid is literally the inventor of the “draws are the loophole” strategy. 
 

If Hoid, the inventor of this strategy, failed to guard against it in the contract he himself wrote, much less failed to detect it when he was looking for loopholes, then we should all just stop reading Stormlight because Brandon thinks we’re dumber than rocks. 

There is that. Has he been able to, though?

[Sedside she/her]

17 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Why does the outcome have to be terrible for Dalinar? Isn't it much better for the outcome being inacceptable for Roshar? Like Odium nominating Ba-Ado-Mishram and the Radiants learning what killing her would mean.

It can be an option too, it just wouldn't get me emotionally involved. For me it's like the difference between 'I killed my mother' and 'I killed my spren'. I get horrified of the former and the latter makes me think something like 'okay, I understand that it's a bad thing in this world, but there is no way I can relate to it'. I understand it logically and, well, realmatically, but I don't feel any emotions about it.

[Lenth]

On 10/6/2024 at 7:18 AM, coolsnow7 said:

Draws are not the loophole. 
 

Hoid is literally the inventor of the “draws are the loophole” strategy. 
 

If Hoid, the inventor of this strategy, failed to guard against it in the contract he himself wrote, much less failed to detect it when he was looking for loopholes, then we should all just stop reading Stormlight because Brandon thinks we’re dumber than rocks. 

But they aren't using Hoid's contract—Dalinar and Rayse agreed to different terms.

Can you point to how their terms guard against a draw being the loophole?

On 10/5/2024 at 9:03 PM, RefusesToElaborate said:

I think you're right that he does have another trick.

 

There is a loophole that gets Odium out of the deal and binding on roshar entirely, if you pay attention.

Though, it does require him winning the contest.

The contest of champions is a lose/lose for Odium regardless of outcome, so long as the Radiant team upholds their end of the contract. I propose that Odiums only way to eke out the win he wants is to force the opposition to violate the contract.

From memory the terms are two willung champions meet atop Urithuru to fight to the death. Should Odiums win, Odium is bound to roshar for a millennium and gets control of Roshar and Dalinar as a fused warrior. Should Dalinars champion win, Odium is bound to Braize and does not attain control. Either way, this is a lose as both Odiums want to be free on the cosmic scale.

As such the only true win, the win that Taravodium wants, the one that gets him out of the binding, is one that forces Dalinar to violate the contract, freeing Odium from it. A contract is just an agreement and agreements go both ways.

People have told me I'm wrong because "Brandon Sanderson wouldn't end the series like this" I say we aren't looking at Return of the Jedi here, we're looking at Empire Strikes Back.

Here is the only loophole I see that breaks the contract without harming Odium.

Odium wins the contest of champions. How? I feel it in my bones that he will be giving someone Yelig Nar and making the contest necessitate access to all surges. Which is where Szeth comes in who had already been trained on all Honorblades.

Szeth being Szeth, he loses. Who could possibly see that coming? /s

Dalinar will be a fused Warrior. So far the contract is upheld. Odium immediately whisks Dalianr away to Rathalas and orders him to piss on the ashes. Or something. The point is, Odium puts Dalinar through an order so heinous that Dalinar refuses.

When Dalinar refuses, the contract is broken. When the contract is broken, Odium is freed.

I put it to you, that if this isn't odiums plan, then the terms Odium and Dalinar have agreed on personally are of 0 consequence to the series plotline. It is the only outcome that breaks the contract, and therefore the binding.

I think these are all reasonable points, but I'm not sure I'm convinced.

The way I see it, if Dalinar loses, he agreed specifically to become a Fused and lead Odium's forces in a war against the cosmere. One could argue that doesn't necessarily require him to do every little thing Odium commands.

Also, the Knights of Wind and Truth excerpts kind of gave me the impression that Szeth and Kaladin weren't going to make it back to Urithiru before the contest. I suppose it's still possible.

[coolsnow7]

5 hours ago, Lenth said:

But they aren't using Hoid's contract—Dalinar and Rayse agreed to different terms.

Can you point to how their terms guard against a draw being the loophole?

I don’t know what to tell you. If you think that Brandon has Hoid do a whole digression about how he got scammed via this exact scam, specifically in the context of writing this contract, only for him to leave himself vulnerable to it - and then not to notice this when he’s explicitly looking for loopholes - then you have an extremely low opinion of Brandon’s writing and I find it strange that you like these books enough to post on a forum about them.

There are other reasons why this theory is bogus (this is like a tie in a parliamentary election leading to total abrogation of that country’s constitution) but this reason alone should be convincing enough.

On 10/5/2024 at 11:03 PM, RefusesToElaborate said:

Odium wins the contest of champions. How? I feel it in my bones that he will be giving someone Yelig Nar and making the contest necessitate access to all surges. Which is where Szeth comes in who had already been trained on all Honorblades.

Szeth being Szeth, he loses. Who could possibly see that coming? /s

Dalinar will be a fused Warrior. So far the contract is upheld. Odium immediately whisks Dalianr away to Rathalas and orders him to piss on the ashes. Or something. The point is, Odium puts Dalinar through an order so heinous that Dalinar refuses.

When Dalinar refuses, the contract is broken. When the contract is broken, Odium is freed.

This is not how Taravangian plans. Both as Taravangian describing (future) Odium, and as Odium, Taravangian is explicit that plans should be made so that “no matter the outcome, you are satisfied”. Counting on Szeth to lose, or on Dalinar to refuse to do heinous things, still leaves his plans vulnerable to Dalinar refusing, or Szeth winning. 

Edited October 8, 2024 by coolsnow7

[Master Silver]

This might be dumb. But the phrase "we each send" is curious to me. What if Taravangian interprets that as sending the willing champion at that point in time, but he has them walk to Urithiru.... Like Nohadon (gotta love The Way of Kings). The contest can start till both sides get there. Sounds like a loophole to me. Journey before destination. 

[Lenth]

15 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

I don’t know what to tell you. If you think that Brandon has Hoid do a whole digression about how he got scammed via this exact scam, specifically in the context of writing this contract, only for him to leave himself vulnerable to it - and then not to notice this when he’s explicitly looking for loopholes - then you have an extremely low opinion of Brandon’s writing and I find it strange that you like these books enough to post on a forum about them.

There are other reasons why this theory is bogus (this is like a tie in a parliamentary election leading to total abrogation of that country’s constitution) but this reason alone should be convincing enough.

My whole point was that, ultimately, Dalinar was responsible for the final terms—not Hoid. He didn't leave himself vulnerable to anything—if loopholes exist, they do so because of Dalinar. Hoid wasn't present during the establishment of the terms, and Dalinar does not magically know that Hoid shared that gambling story with Jasnah in Oathbringer.

So thanks for not answering my question or engaging in a real dialogue. I really appreciate how you chose to attack my opinion on Mr. Sanderson's writing instead—oh, and the part where your only other supporting evidence for your assertion is invalid because countries have explicit procedures to resolve ties? Absolutely riveting point.