Early hint at Taravangians true motives

[Knightsofazure686]

In the first book when Taravangian has lunch with Jasina and Shallon (excuse my spelling, I listen to the audiobooks), he mentions that he’s gained enemies from associating with Jasina to which she responds “you’ll be forgiven, depending on the devotary you’ve chosen”. He says “Me? Forgiven? I think not, but that is another thing entirely”. And then moves on from the subject quickly. Based on his debate with Jasina, this is probably an average intelligence day for him so he is still somewhat moral. He could be referring to the members in the devotary itself forgiving him but his wording makes it sound like he is unforgivable in general. Just thought it was interesting and wanted to share! 

[Treamayne]

9 hours ago, Knightsofazure686 said:

In the first book when Taravangian has lunch with Jasina and Shallon (excuse my spelling, I listen to the audiobooks), he mentions that he’s gained enemies from associating with Jasina to which she responds “you’ll be forgiven, depending on the devotary you’ve chosen”. He says “Me? Forgiven? I think not, but that is another thing entirely”. And then moves on from the subject quickly. Based on his debate with Jasina, this is probably an average intelligence day for him so he is still somewhat moral. He could be referring to the members in the devotary itself forgiving him but his wording makes it sound like he is unforgivable in general. Just thought it was interesting and wanted to share! 

Good catch. I beleive that scene is double-foreshadowing - both about him having been responsible for unforgivable atrocities; and his subtle hint that, because the Ghostbloods have followed Jasnah to Kharbranth, they have finally realized (or are possibly about to realize) the Diagram exists - a Secret Society so small and localized they went unnoticed for a long time. WoB (as of Words of Radiance):

Spoiler

Aradel (paraphrased)

I asked Brandon just how many secret societies were on Roshar.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There are nine currently working.

Words of Radiance release party (March 3, 2014)

At the time we knew of 17th Shard, Ghostbloods, and Sons of Honor. WoR is when we learn more about the Diagram. 

Hope that helps

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

I read this one more as just an interesting exchange than true foreshadowing to be honest. Jashna believes that taravangian is soft in the head and slow of wit when he is objectively the smartest person on the planet (when he isn't having a psychotic break). She attempts to patronize and placate (again...the smartest man in the entire freaking world by a massive margin) by deflecting his comment criticizing and critiquing her actions by citing a vague religious truism meant to calm down children and the feeble minded who have been gaslit or made to feel guilty by teachers or misbehaving parents.

His level of snark-back simply demonstrates that he sees her the way she sees him: as an idiot who thinks that they are wildly more intelligent than they are, grasping at things they couldn't possibly understand, and who simply needs to be brushed off and diverted. Mr. T's mind is not a hermetically sealed box, he occasionally lets slip a mean comment, joke, or passive-agressive retort, and he also only prophesies on his absolute best-of-the-best days. Honestly, I think they were just having a completely normal conversation showcasing exactly who they are to eachother on a totally middle-of-the-road kind of day.

Hopefully that helps; not every word is intended or warranted to be one of prophecy or oracling. Only the best (worst...) ones on the best (worst...) days.

[Craiko she/her]

When Shallan draws Taravangian, she draws a lot of cryptics. It's because he lies so much, so they are very interested.

[Erklitt]

On 9/21/2024 at 2:39 AM, Knightsofazure686 said:

his wording makes it sound like he is unforgivable in general.

I totally agree. I think it's foreshadowing in the sense that at this point we readers know nothing about the Silent Gatherers yet, while Taravangian of course knows what he's doing. 

 

On 9/21/2024 at 12:16 PM, hwiles said:

Jashna believes that taravangian is soft in the head and slow of wit

No.

When Shallan supposes Jasnah to have exactly that attitude, Jasnah responds by telling Shallan the world could use a few more rulers like Taravangian. She may not consider him unusually intelligent, but that doesn't stop her from appreciating his style of rule.

 

On 9/21/2024 at 12:16 PM, hwiles said:

when he is objectively the smartest person on the planet (when he isn't having a psychotic break).

Again, no.

Taravangian was the smartest person on the planet for one single day. Often he is stupid, on this particular day he seems to be about average.

 

On 9/21/2024 at 12:16 PM, hwiles said:

Honestly, I think they were just having a completely normal conversation showcasing exactly who they are to eachother on a totally middle-of-the-road kind of day.

I agree with your words but not your meaning.

Yes, it is a completely normal conversation between two people who have esteem for one another. Taravangian showcases his friendly nature while Jasnah showcases that her image of being an arrogant intellectual snob is quite wrong.

Edited September 24, 2024 by Erklitt

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

20 minutes ago, Erklitt said:

I totally agree. I think it's foreshadowing in the sense that at this point we readers know nothing about the Silent Gatherers yet, while Taravangian of course knows what he's doing. 

 

No.

When Shallan supposes Jasnah to have exactly that attitude, Jasnah responds by telling Shallan the world could use a few more rulers like Taravangian. She may not consider him unusually intelligent, but that doesn't stop her from appreciating his style of rule.

 

Again, no.

Taravangian was the smartest person on the planet for one single day. Often he is stupid, on this particular day he seems to be about average.

 

I agree with your words but not your meaning.

Yes, it is a completely normal conversation between two people who have esteem for one another. Taravangian showcases his friendly nature while Jasnah showcases that her image of being an arrogant intellectual snob is quite wrong.

Agree to disagree. I have met men and women like taravangian and jasnah in real life and that colors my perception deeply. A powerfully self-aware old man with near infinite authority inside his domain is perfectly capable of being abusively passive aggressive and non-chalantly kindly in nature while simultaneously maintaining blood-harvesting death farms for the homeless. That's not cognitive dissonance you're hearing; it's an extremely manipulative person who understands the thoughts of others well enough to distort their realities, even without magic.

If jasnah properly respected taravangian, she would have taken what he said seriously. But...he knew she didn't, and he couldn't have cared less because he was aware that he was fully in control and not doing anything illegal by ordering all those people to be killed so that their last words could be harvested and considered prophetic. Please be aware that real life ICU's typically record the last words of the dying too and, while mankind's healers never intentionally accelerate a death, they do prioritize peace and comfort over unsustainable acts of Preservation...