What would it mean if Chana "broke" the second she got to Braize? Assuming she went there...

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

I don't know if anyone else has questioned this before, I haven't seen it discussed at least.

If Chana was the Herald who was sent to Braize, and "broke," it's a natural thought to think she ran and hid..got caught..and broke pretty quickly, but that this whole process took about a year-ish amount of time to happen.

But, what would be the ramifications of her giving up the second she got to Braize? If Odium could have started a "traditional" desolation a year or more beforehand, and chose not to because of the Everstorm, what would that mean? 

There are other events/motives that could be called into question by this as well, but the thought that things could have gotten started sooner, but didn't, seems like a very Brandon thing..."Come on everybody, why might this be???" Full disclosure, I don't know but it seems like it would be a big deal.

Anyway, that's my thought of the day.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

I don't know if anyone else has questioned this before, I haven't seen it discussed at least.

If Chana was the Herald who was sent to Braize, and "broke," it's a natural thought to think she ran and hid..got caught..and broke pretty quickly, but that this whole process took about a year-ish amount of time to happen.

But, what would be the ramifications of her giving up the second she got to Braize? If Odium could have started a "traditional" desolation a year or more beforehand, and chose not to because of the Everstorm, what would that mean? 

There are other events/motives that could be called into question by this as well, but the thought that things could have gotten started sooner, but didn't, seems like a very Brandon thing..."Come on everybody, why might this be???" Full disclosure, I don't know but it seems like it would be a big deal.

Anyway, that's my thought of the day.

There definitely was a discussion about this in the Chana topic, but If Chana was to be immediately transported to Braize, got caught and broken, Heralds and Voidspren would have returned to Roshar 6 years before WoR. This didn't happen so Chana didn't break immediately after getting killed. But I doubt Fused and Voidspren could have inhabited Parshmen with a broken mind, as they have to be willing and open to a new form. Without their mind being restored Odium might have been incapable of even starting this Desolation, even if he had an earlier opportunity. 

[Quantus he/him]

I love me a good What If!

If the Desolation had started a lot earlier, a lot of the Sons of Honor activities would not have happened, Gavilar would probably not have fallen so far into his quest for godhood because the Heralds would be running for other things (escape, cover, etc), and he wouldnt have been killed that night.  Elokhar would have had several years more of being an Heir with no real responsibilities, and he wouldnt have made bad calls re. Moash's family, nor would what's his face have been sent to Kaladin's Village. Kaladin and Tien would have stayed home, Kaladin would have been a Surgeon instead of a Soldier and Tien would have been a Lightweaver.  Shallan's brother would be alive. Dalinar would have eventually been killed by Sadeas, if he didnt drink himself to death first.  There would be no War of Reckoning so Zahel may not have joined House Kholin. 

Edited September 19, 2024 by Quantus

[alder24]

10 minutes ago, Quantus said:

There would be no War of Reckoning so Zahel may not have joined House Kholin. 

Zahel joined Kholins way earlier, he was Adolin's teacher.

[Quantus he/him]

6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Zahel joined Kholins way earlier, he was Adolin's teacher.

Yeah, I think you're right. The Coppermind mentioned he joined to be the Swordmaster at the Kholin Camp for the War of Reckoning, which I took to be when he initiall joined the House itself.  That combined with me forgetting how big the age-gap between Adolin and Shallan is (~6 rosharan years) made me think Adolin was also ~11 when the war started so his initial training and the war would have coincided more.  But he'd have been 17 when Gavilar was assassinated so he'd have been training for years by then. 

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

But I doubt Fused and Voidspren could have inhabited Parshmen with a broken mind, as they have to be willing and open to a new form. Without their mind being restored Odium might have been incapable of even starting this Desolation, even if he had an earlier opportunity. 

I hadn't made that connection at all. The Everstorm was almost certainly necessary for the Fused to return 

So even if my premise of Chana surrendering immediately (Do we know the mechanism for "breaking"? If it's just the intent of "I give up!", that was what I was trying to say originally, what if she didn't want any torture and gave up immediately) the singers weren't in a mental state to receive the fused, which basically blocks a desolation. Dang, B-A-M's imprisonment really did mess everything up.

[bmcclure7]

16 hours ago, alder24 said:

There definitely was a discussion about this in the Chana topic, but If Chana was to be immediately transported to Braize, got caught and broken, Heralds and Voidspren would have returned to Roshar 6 years before WoR. This didn't happen so Chana didn't break immediately after getting killed. But I doubt Fused and Voidspren could have inhabited Parshmen with a broken mind, as they have to be willing and open to a new form. Without their mind being restored Odium might have been incapable of even starting this Desolation, even if he had an earlier opportunity. 

I would think it would be the opposite that they would be more easily able able to take control of the broken parshmen

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

Do we know for a fact that the Heralds go to, and return from, Braize instantly? Asking because only Spiritual Realm effects ever seem to be instantaneous in the Cosmere and the Heralds are classified as cognitive shadows. While it may sound horrible in the extreme, it would not surprise me if the Heralds took any amount of time between a few seconds and multiple years to fully die-and-transition to Braize, and then break-and-transition back to Roshar. Whether they remain conscious and aware during this period would also then be an open question; it might be like a gentle cat nap or a prolonged dissociated psychotic break.

Edited September 20, 2024 by hwiles

[Light In the Darkness]

On 9/19/2024 at 2:45 PM, JohnnyKaizen said:

I hadn't made that connection at all. The Everstorm was almost certainly necessary for the Fused to return

Not necessarily; the thing the Everstorm did that fixed the Parshmen was re-Connect them, both to Odium (obviously) and the world itself. Slave-form has no rhythms, it seems, which implies their connection to their world (and therefore sanity) was broken.

I do wonder how slave-forms managed to exist for so long, though, if they never adopted mate-form, which should have had rhythms. I guess maybe they can reproduce anytime, but the passions and desire to do so are only in mate-form? Odd to think about.

On 9/20/2024 at 6:41 AM, hwiles said:

Do we know for a fact that the Heralds go to, and return from, Braize instantly?

I don't believe we have full confirmation, except that when the Oathpact was abandoned, Taln had died that very day, and that started the end of the desolation (or so it seemed, IIRC). It may take some time, but the Heralds seem to act like the point when one of them dies is exactly when the Fused stop coming back, at least in this instance. The Heralds are Cognitive shadows, but they don't go to Braize voluntarily; the transportation seems mediated by the Oathpact, which is SR-based, so it would make sense for it to be instantaneous.

[alder24]

8 hours ago, Light In the Darkness said:

I do wonder how slave-forms managed to exist for so long, though, if they never adopted mate-form, which should have had rhythms. I guess maybe they can reproduce anytime, but the passions and desire to do so are only in mate-form? Odd to think about.

Mateform isn't the only form capable of reproduction, it's just specialization. Most forms are asexual, but both Mateform and Slaveform among a few others aren't.

Spoiler

RenegadeShroom

You said earlier that Parshendi are primarily asexual, does that extend to all Listeners -- parshmen, and those descended from Listeners, like Horneaters and Herdazians -- or is it just the Parshendi?

Brandon Sanderson

Most Listener forms are asexual, but several forms are different, including slaveform. Horneaters and Herdazians are not, as a rule, though there are higher instances of asexuality among them.

uchoo786

I was actually wondering about how Parshmen would reproduce if they are only in slaveform? I thought one had to be in mateform in order to reproduce?

Also, could Horneaters and Herdazians change forms as well?

Brandon Sanderson

For the first, mateform is not the only form capable of producing--any more than warform is the only one capable of swinging a sword. The forms are specializations.

For the second, RAFO.

/r/books AMA 2015 (May 19, 2015)

 

[coolsnow7]

On 9/19/2024 at 1:44 PM, JohnnyKaizen said:

I don't know if anyone else has questioned this before, I haven't seen it discussed at least.

If Chana was the Herald who was sent to Braize, and "broke," it's a natural thought to think she ran and hid..got caught..and broke pretty quickly, but that this whole process took about a year-ish amount of time to happen.

But, what would be the ramifications of her giving up the second she got to Braize? If Odium could have started a "traditional" desolation a year or more beforehand, and chose not to because of the Everstorm, what would that mean? 

There are other events/motives that could be called into question by this as well, but the thought that things could have gotten started sooner, but didn't, seems like a very Brandon thing..."Come on everybody, why might this be???" Full disclosure, I don't know but it seems like it would be a big deal.

Anyway, that's my thought of the day.

You’re asking the correct question. Because everything we’ve read up until now has made it abundantly clear that the cause of the Everstorm and the True Desolation was not Shallan doing an oopsie when she killed her mom who turned out to be a Herald. But a whole lot of people are so wedded to the mechanics they know that they will hold on to this theory more tightly than they already did to the Stormfaker nonsense. 

[Master Silver]

Without the Everstorm I am unsure how effective a desolation would have been. Of course, without Radiants, the Fused would be a power house. But every Fused you kill would be one less to deal with. 

[Display-Names-Are-Stupid]

20 hours ago, Master Silver said:

Without the Everstorm I am unsure how effective a desolation would have been. Of course, without Radiants, the Fused would be a power house. But every Fused you kill would be one less to deal with. 

Humanity has never been in a better position for a Desolation in terms of advancement, that's something that Taln thanks Ash for in his moment of lucidity.

The big disadvantage humanity faced was that there was so little time between Desolations to recover and prepare, less than a year between the final 2 I believe.

So back in the day Desolations were very effective because humanity was eventually worn down to a horrible starting point, but this time around they were a lot more solid. 

[EdgedancerJacob he/him]

On 11/2/2024 at 6:39 PM, Master Silver said:

Without the Everstorm I am unsure how effective a desolation would have been.

Well we don't yet know how the Fused returned after each death prior to the Everstorm, but there must've been a way. I assume they would do the same thing they did before the Everstorm, should the listeners have never summoned it.