The Old Magic Gods Were not Singular

[Lightspine]

TL;DR: I think that the Wind isn't the only Old Magic spren of wind and that the Eila Stele still refers to the Stormfather.

During my recent reread of Rhythm of War I noticed this quote from the Stormfather, which really got me thinking:

Quote

The Stormfather paused, then rumbled more softly. I never liked him. Though I was only a wind then—and not completely conscious—I remember him. Ishar was ambitious even before madness took him.

- Rhythm of War, Chapter 111

I think it's fairly well accepted that the Stormfather is a remnant of the Old Magic that has been invested by Honor (even though the Nightwatcher is the only spren that's explicitly stated to come from the Old Magic). From this point of view, the Stormfather's quote above is in reference to his original state as an Old Magic spren. Therefore, the wording has some implications: not just that he calls himself "wind" but also "a wind" implying that he wasn't necessarily unique.

The more I thought about it, the more signs I saw indicating that the Old Magic spren were not singular: For example, the story of the Unkalaki references them receiving aid from the gods of the waters, the gods of the mountains, and the gods of the trees. Not from one "god" of each, but "gods."

As an add-on to this, the Sibling is almost certainly descended from a "god of the mountains" (specifically the mountain Ur, which Urithiru was crafted from—as indicated in RoW chapter 83) and it would not make sense for their influence to extend to the Horneater Peaks where the Unkalaki received blessings from the gods of the mountains. The Sibling must be a separate entity; there is more than one god of mountains.

Likewise, Stone Shamanism references plural "spirits of stones and mountains."

Following these preview chapters lots of people here have been reexamining the Eila Stele, and for good reason.

Quote

For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind.

The original interpretation of this was that these correspond to the three Bondsmith spren, with "wind" referencing the Stormfather. Following the recent chapters I've seen the general consensus change to "wind" being "the Wind" that speaks to Kaladin.

But what if our original interpretation was actually correct? There is no indication that this new Wind that we hear from in the previews ever betrayed the Dawnsingers. On the other hand, the Stormfather certainly did when he chose to bond with humans. In fact, we have direct confirmation of this:

Quote

“This was him, the spren of highstorms—the Rider of Storms. The songs called him a traitor.”

- Rhythm of War. Chapter 57

This makes me think that the original Eila Stele interpretation is accurate: the Stormfather was a god of winds who betrayed the Dawnsingers. He just wasn't the only god of winds. I think it might be really important if the Wind that speaks to Kaladin isn't considered to have betrayed the Dawnsingers.

Finally, I have some more nebulous evidence. Among the Rhythms of Roshar (listed here: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Rhythm#Normal_Rhythms) the Rhythm of Winds seems pretty unique: almost all of the others correspond to an emotional state. The Rhythm of Winds is instead used to predict highstorms and is attuned by both Venli and Eshonai when they enter a highstorm (Chapters 57 and 88 of RoW). However, it is also attuned by Shumin when experiencing vertigo/being at a great height from Leshwi's tower in Kholinar (RoW Chapter 11) so it's purpose isn't always storm-related. This indicates to me that there's a connection between the Stormfather and winds of all kinds.

Probably the most glaring evidence against this theory is that we don't really see these spren around. If every mountain has a spren like the Sibling inhabiting it, surely somebody would have noticed. I think that this is easily explained though; Wit tells us that the Wind is "weaker than it once was" and it only recently was able to make contact with people again. Most of the Old Magic spren probably faded away with time and are now weak or slumbering, with the surviving ones likely doing so due to additional Investiture from one of the Shards—the three Bondsmith spren and likely the Unmade (Yelig-nar is also called the Bleakwind—could it possibly be a corrupted spren of wind?).

[duladen he/him]

Yeah I love this idea and I’m fully on board. I’ve been trying to reconcile Stone Shamanism, Unkalaki gods of stone, and Ur together in my mind but it hasn’t felt correct. Ur felt specific to those mountains.

It’s like there’s a spren of the North Wind and the East Wind and the Highstorm… A spren for each mountain range… these all imply cognitive/cultural aspects to them as Singers in different areas revered gods of their specific wind or mountain.

[the_archduke]

14 hours ago, Lightspine said:

(Yelig-nar is also called the Bleakwind—could it possibly be a corrupted spren of wind?).

Love the theory, but Yelig Nar was the Blightwind

[Master Silver]

Sanderson loves symmetry, especially in the Rosharan system. Ten orders of KR, each with two surges. Two Shards on the side of the KRs. Two Bondsmiths directly related to those Shards. One child so to speak created of both, the Sibling. But then you also have the unmade, who were once more like the Nightwatcher, powerful and rather Unique spren that were unmade by Odium. My guess is that since Roshar was originally created by Adonasium, there were 16 unique spren that were paired off so to speak. Depending on if you include the Sibling in this count, we know of 11 or 12. The Wind would make 13. But then there are also the gods of stone and likely gods of water that we don't know of. One awesome thing that I think could be done with captured Unmade, is to remake them, and then have KRs bond them. Although, you could make the argument that none of these greater spren are as they were created by Adonasium, because they were created from his investiture which was not simply of Honor or Cultivation or Odium but all of them. So, these spren, including the Storm Father were all changed by being invested by a particular Shard. So to remove Odium's influence and saturate them with honor likely would not return them to how they were, they would simply be on team Honor and less dangerous. 

[the_archduke]

I am not sure Adonalsium was related to the number 16 before the shattering.  We know Hoid was offered a shard, so it is possible that there could have been 17 Shards.  Post shattering 16 is a significant number, but I don't think there is any evidence of 16 being significant pre-shattering.

 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, the_archduke said:

I am not sure Adonalsium was related to the number 16 before the shattering.  We know Hoid was offered a shard, so it is possible that there could have been 17 Shards.  Post shattering 16 is a significant number, but I don't think there is any evidence of 16 being significant pre-shattering.

Good point, but Hoid's Shard was offered to someone else - there would be no 17th Shard. But it's true that in a different set of circumstances, there could be a different number of Shards after the Shattering. It seems 16 might be unrelated to Adonalsium before the Shattering.

Spoiler

Paladin Brewer

We know that Hoid was offered a Shard and turned it down. Was he offered a specific Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

He was. There is one of the Shards that he would've-- yeah.

Paladin Brewer

Would he have been the 17th person or did someone take his place?

Brandon Sanderson

No. Someone took his place.

Skyward Houston signing (Nov. 19, 2018)

 

Spoiler

askthepaperclip (paraphrased)

If Adonalsium were to shatter in a parallel universe, would it divide into the same 16 intents?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Um...it...Adonalsium could have been shattered in other ways.

askthepaperclip (paraphrased)

Was there a force determining which way it shattered?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes!

New York Signing (Nov. 16, 2013)

 

Spoiler

James Furr

If, instead of the 16, there had been 20 members at the Shattering of Adonalsium (with the same level of involvedness)...could it have Shattered into 20 pieces?

Brandon Sanderson

It's quite possible that a different number could have ended up working.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 5, 2018)

 

[Acolyte of Radiance]

Whasent there a quote that going past three Bondsmith was sacreliugous?

In WoR?

Edited September 6, 2024 by Acolyte of Radiance

[Windrunner22]

On 9/5/2024 at 6:26 PM, Lightspine said:

As an add-on to this, the Sibling is almost certainly descended from a "god of the mountains" (specifically the mountain Ur, which Urithiru was crafted from—as indicated in RoW chapter 83) and it would not make sense for their influence to extend to the Horneater Peaks where the Unkalaki received blessings from the gods of the mountains. The Sibling must be a separate entity; there is more than one god of mountains.

Likewise, Stone Shamanism references plural "spirits of stones and mountains."

Amazing theory and awesome write-up! Thanks Lightspine!

 

I am hoping to add some supporting evidence here. In Dawnshard ch.18, Rysn and Cord are in a confrontation with Nikli the Sleepless. Cord challenges Nikli to a duel before trying to invoke something she calls “the ancient pact of the Seven Peaks”. I think this is pretty compelling evidence of there being multiple mountain gods that the Horneaters have interacted with, at least seven of them. 
 

Are the seven peaks the gods of the seven tallest and/or most important mountains in the Horneater Peaks? Or are they seven mountains across Roshar, with potentially Ur/The Sibling being one of them?

Edited September 6, 2024 by Windrunner22
Horneater mountain range -> Horneater Peaks

[duladen he/him]

A thought just occurred to me… the Storm Striders. I have not thought about them since Oathbringer. Could they be Old God Spren, too?

[Alcatur]

Partially related to this: - Ishar was known as "Binder of gods" before he was known as Herald. Could he have something to do with the disappearance of older gods?

 

On 9/6/2024 at 1:26 AM, Lightspine said:

But what if our original interpretation was actually correct? There is no indication that this new Wind that we hear from in the previews ever betrayed the Dawnsingers. On the other hand, the Stormfather certainly did when he chose to bond with humans. In fact, we have direct confirmation of this:

Note that Leshwi talks about Spren forgiving the Singers and . Raboniel is more clinical when she talks about spren choosing humans. "Betrayal" may have been subjective, just not siding with the Singers. SOme would probably consider WInd simply talking to humans as "betrayal"

Edited September 20, 2024 by Alcatur

[Through the Living Shadow he/him]

I posted something similar on another topic, but to shorthand it, the nine Unmade may be originally old magic spren. Them plus the Wind gives ten, a significant number in roshar. I give more on the topic. I believe it was the nature of the wind. I’ll edit this when I find it.
The topic (thread?) was “Wind is Chemoarish”

Edited September 17, 2024 by SpiritOfWrath
Clarification