Dofurion Posted August 25, 2024 Posted August 25, 2024 (edited) Some time ago I posted a theory about what I expected the abilities that the "voidSurges" would grant to be like, but for some time now, based on several theories I've read, I've reconsidered who the users could be. I look forward to reading your opinions. Small spoilers for the previews of Wind and Truth. Possibility 1 Well, recently with what I've seen in the Wind and Truth previews I started to rethink the structure of the magic present in Roshar. If the Old Magic precedes the arrival of Honor and Cultivation, this in my opinion rules it out as a Cultivation magic system, which creates a problem for me with the schemes I had already established, so I decided to open my mind to an idea that I don't like very much, Surgebinding is a hybrid system of Honor and Cultivation just like Feruchemy would be for Preservation and Ruin. From here another idea arises, if we don't have a pure system of either of the two predominant shards on the planet, could it be that there isn't a "pure Odium system" either, as we had thought Voidbinding would be? What I wrote above made me consider the following: We already have the 30 that Sanderson said! (Well to be exact we have 20 + 8~9i ) Quote Quantumplation (paraphrased) I haven't read Way of Kings yet, but I've read Warbreaker and Mistborn, and the thing I like most about them is the Magic systems. Will Way of Kings have multiple magic systems? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Depending on how you count it, Stormlight Archive will have 3 or 30 different magic systems. Footnote: Part of me wants to say he said "3, 10, or 30 different magic systems", but I can't remember for sure. Towers of Midnight Cambridge signing (Nov. 7, 2010) Honestly this WoB is already quite old but that doesn't mean that they are not parts of Sanderson's original ideas for the Archive. To this we must also add that on certain occasions Sanderson considers the Orders individually as magical systems in themselves. So far we are missing 20 "Orders" in the plot. I guess you already have the idea that for this I will use the "Illuminated Orders" wildcard, which adds 1 existing one, plus another 8~9 hypothetical ones. Which gives us a count of 19~20 "magic systems". We're still missing 10 more, so here's my bet: They're the Fused I know it may seem strange since the whole point of the Fused is that they can access one Surge and only that Surge. But I noticed an interesting pattern a while back, assuming Renarin's case is universal, the Fused would need to acquire the voidSurge opposite the Illuminated Radiant Order they would correspond to in order to complete the correct pairs. Example: (i) Windrunner [Adhesion][(v)Gravitation] (i) Skybreaker [Gravitation][(v)Division] (i) Dustbringer [Division][(v)Abrasion] (i) Edgedancer [Abrasion][(v)Progression] (i) Truthwachers [Progression][(v)Illumination] (i) Lightweavers [Illumination][(v)Transformation] (i) Elsecallers [Transformation][(v)Transportation] (i) Willshapers [Transportation][(v)Cohesion] (i) Stoneward [Cohesion][(v)Tension] Shanay-im [(v)Adhesion][Gravitation] ?? [(v)Gravitation][Division] Shetel-im [(v)Division][Abrasion] "Magnified Ones" [(v)Abrasion][Progression] Mavset-im [(v)Progression][Illumination] Fannahn-im [(v)Illumination][Transformation] Nex-im [(v)Transformation][Transportation] Makay-im [(v)Transportation][Cohesion] ?? [(v)Cohesion][Tension] Then we would have every possible combination of Surges with its void version according to the pairs given to us by the current knight orders. And as for how the Fused would obtain these new abilities, I have two options: The first is that they have always had them but the old Odium did not reveal them to them (unlikely). And the second is that it is discovered over time by the Shanay-im who joined the Listeners, I bet that this group of Fused when dying will not be reincarnated but will imitate the Sprens and form a Nahel. For the 2 "orders" we are missing, I imagine you have already got an idea (the reason why I used "~" before) the equivalents to Bondsmiths in these groups. On the part of the Illuminated Knights Radiant there is no mechanical impediment beyond the capacity of Sja-anat for such an order to exist. And as for the Fused we have the impediment that we would need to create a new type. So here goes my predictive part: Based on the following Death Rattle, Dalinar will lose the duel and this will affect the Stormfather. Quote Above silence, the illuminating storms—dying storms—illuminate the silence above. Quote He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear! Possibility 2 (We don't understand anything) The title of this possibility is based on a discovery they published on reddit, and that is that the glyphs that would correspond to the possible "orders of knights" in the Voidchart are actually also deformations of the glyphs of the Surges "void-Bondsmith Glyph" and Progression Glyph "void-Willshaper Glyph and Cohesion Glyph If you are wondering how the powers were distributed in the chart, we have 2 options: If you're wondering why there are 2 options, it's because the OP of this thread also discovered that 4 of the Surges have mirror symmetry. Coincidentally, they are equidistant in the voidChart In representing this, the only thing I can think of is that the large glyphs represent the power that an Illuminated Knight Radiant lost and in exchange he obtained two voidSurges. In Renarin's case he would have Progression and (v)Division + (v)Abrasion. Edited August 25, 2024 by Dofurion 1
alder24 Posted August 26, 2024 Posted August 26, 2024 (edited) 17 hours ago, Dofurion said: Small spoilers for the previews of Wind and Truth. Wrong section. All topics that include spoilers from WaT should be in the Spoiler Zone. 17 hours ago, Dofurion said: WaT: Spoiler If the Old Magic precedes the arrival of Honor and Cultivation, this in my opinion rules it out as a Cultivation magic system Kind of. Modern Old Magic is associated with Cultivation but it's its own weird thing. The initial idea of Rosharan magic systems were 3 sets of ten, which might suggest something like Lifebending exists. Spoiler Dunkelheit Khriss mentions in the Ars Arcanum that her research suggests another set of abilities more esoteric than the [Voidbindings]. You have said before that the only magic we haven't really seen is Voidbinding, but you have also said that no one has used Cultivation magic on-screen (not counting boons and curses). Is this other set of esoteric abilities Cultivation's magic, and is it called Lifebinding? Brandon Sanderson RAFO! What a great question! What an excellent question. Remember that when I originally conceived The Stormlight Archive, I was thinking of thirty magic systems. And I decided that that was instead three groups of ten, and I wasn't going to call it thirty magic systems. And indeed, that's even vague, because are fabrials their own magic system? What is going on? But anyway, who knows. RAFO! YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022) Spoiler Questioner How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them haven't been seen? Brandon Sanderson I would say the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them. I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one. And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing. Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016) 17 hours ago, Dofurion said: so I decided to open my mind to an idea that I don't like very much, Surgebinding is a hybrid system of Honor and Cultivation Yup, it has been confirmed by Brandon multiple times: Spoiler Crspu Is there going to be a magic system for every Shard? Brandon Sanderson Uh, yes, whether there'll be books? We get into a problem here... is... what is a magic system, right? So for instance like, would you count all of Surgebinding as one magic system, or is it ten magic systems, right? Is Windrunning a separate magic system from Skybreaking. Right, and is it the Surges? Is it that? What do you call a magic system? Is the system of fabrials a magic system, or is it a subset of what's happening on Roshar? And in that case, it's like I delineated it pretty strongly in Mistborn, but in Stormlight, it's like... kind of Surgebinding is kind of Honor and Cultivation, right? And so is there a magic system for each of them or not? So the answer is yes and no, in that every one of the Shards will inspire really interesting magic systems. But is there a one to one? What do you call a magic system? And beyond that, will I have time to write books about all of these, I don't know. You could even look at Sel. Sel has how many magic systems, is it one? Is it lots? Is Forging a different magic system from AonDor, or is it two aspects of the same magic system and so... It's tricky. YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021) Spoiler Questioner It was mentioned that there are 16 gods in your Cosmere. Brandon Sanderson Depends on your definition of god. Questioner Shards. Are the ten orders of the Knight Radiants related to specific gods? Because Honor, child of Honor-Kaladin Brandon Sanderson So all the magic on Roshar, all the surgebinding on Roshar, is going to have its roots in Honor and Cultivation. Um... There is some Odium influence too, but that’s mostly voidbinding, which is the map in the back of the first book. [...] Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017) 17 hours ago, Dofurion said: From here another idea arises, if we don't have a pure system of either of the two predominant shards on the planet, could it be that there isn't a "pure Odium system" either, as we had thought Voidbinding would be? I do agree. I believe that Voidbinding is a mix of all three Shards. 17 hours ago, Dofurion said: To this we must also add that on certain occasions Sanderson considers the Orders individually as magical systems in themselves. So far we are missing 20 "Orders" in the plot. I guess you already have the idea that for this I will use the "Illuminated Orders" wildcard, which adds 1 existing one, plus another 8~9 hypothetical ones. Which gives us a count of 19~20 "magic systems". What is a magic system? Even Brandon asks this question in WoBs above. Is Windrunning its own magic system, or is the Surge of Gravitation its own magic system? Maybe its just Surgebinding as a whole? It isn't as strongly defined as it was in Mistborn series, so personally I'm looking at the entire Surgebinding as the whole as one magic system - Windrunners, Skybreakers and every surge is a part of it, just like Mistings, Mistborns or Twinborns aren't individual systems each, but are just a part of one magic system called Allomancy. And when taking a closer look at this number "10," I'm thinking of each Surge individually, not every combination you can make with them mixing together (each Twinborn isn't a new magic system). 17 hours ago, Dofurion said: We're still missing 10 more, so here's my bet: They're the Fused Their Surges behave almost exactly as those of Radiants. It doesn't matter they can access only one Surge, Fused are are Surgebinders: Spoiler Chaos You've recently said that Rosharans call everything Surgebinding. So my question is: does Khriss call what the Fused do "Surgebinding"? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Chaos Interesting. We still don't know what Voidbinding is, but we'll get there eventually, I'm sure. Brandon Sanderson You will. Shardcast Interview (Jan. 23, 2021) 17 hours ago, Dofurion said: If you're wondering why there are 2 options, it's because the OP of this thread also discovered that 4 of the Surges have mirror symmetry. Every glyph has a mirror symmetry? 17 hours ago, Dofurion said: In representing this, the only thing I can think of is that the large glyphs represent the power that an Illuminated Knight Radiant lost and in exchange he obtained two voidSurges. In Renarin's case he would have Progression and (v)Division + (v)Abrasion. But that's not the case. Renarin clearly doesn't have Voids of Division and Abrasion, he has the Void of Illumination, he uses Illumination, he creates some weird illusions, lights and visions - that's not what Division or Abrasion is about, it's Illumination. It was even suggested by Brandon to Argent (WoB). I don't believe that mixing two abilities, one from Surgebinding and other from Voidbinding, creates a new type of magic system (again, Twinborns aren't a new magic system), rather Renarin is both a Surgebinder and a Voidbinder at the same time. He uses two different magic systems at the same time - sounds familiar? Check out the second link in the footnotes of the first WoB: Spoiler Argent Renarin, his visions of the future are they connected to one of his Surges? Both of them? Are they a side-effect of his order? Brandon Sanderson Umm... Argent Like I can kind of fit in the two of them... Brandon Sanderson Alright, how much of a spoiler do you want on this? Argent All of it. Brandon Sanderson *Incredulously* Really? Argent Is that even a question for me? Brandon Sanderson Do you want to know something secret that you then can't post? Argent *sighs* How-- Is it something that is going to come up in Book 3-- Brandon Sanderson Yes. Argent --or later. Brandon Sanderson It comes up in Book 3. Argent I'll bear the burden. Brandon Sanderson You'll bear the burden meaning I can tell you? Argent I'm going to pause this actually... *Audio paused* Footnote: Argent and Brandon revealed some of the secret discussion here. Argent explained a bit more on the 17th Shard as well. Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015) Spoiler Argent Let's talk about Renarin, and Voidbinding. So, with that page we talked about, Renarin Voidbinds. I asked about visions, you pointed to Voidbinding chart, he Voidbinds. Is that using Stormlight to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we've seen? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Argent Is that what voidbinding is? Brandon Sanderson No, but close. You're on the right track. We are gonna get into that, I'm not gonna tell you what the chart means, and things like that. But yeah, something really weird is happening there. Footnote: The chart referenced is the back endsheet in The Way of Kings. Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017) Edited August 26, 2024 by alder24 2
LewsTherinTelescope Posted August 26, 2024 Posted August 26, 2024 Moved this to the Wind and Truth + Cosmere board, as it discusses Wind and Truth + the Cosmere. 3
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