Ch 6, further evidence in favor of Ishar being the Stormfaker

[Sspifffyman]

So I haven't seen anyone talk about this yet. But in ch 6 Dalinar says this about Ishar:

 

"Ishar thinks he’s the actual champion, not me. Either that or he thinks he’s the Almighty himself… probably some crazed mix of both."

This, combined with the prologue being changed to have the "Stormfather" talk more about a Champion, makes me think it's even more likely Ishar is the Stormfaker. Just more hints towards Ishar having seen a vision or something of the need for a champion.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Sspifffyman said:

So I haven't seen anyone talk about this yet. But in ch 6 Dalinar says this about Ishar:

 

"Ishar thinks he’s the actual champion, not me. Either that or he thinks he’s the Almighty himself… probably some crazed mix of both."

This, combined with the prologue being changed to have the "Stormfather" talk more about a Champion, makes me think it's even more likely Ishar is the Stormfaker. Just more hints towards Ishar having seen a vision or something of the need for a champion.

Hello, welcome to the Shard. Check out Sharder FAQ for some useful tips.

 

We've discussed a little bit of the consequences of the new version of the prologue in relation to the Stormfaker theory here, specifically starting from this post and in some other topics in this subsection. 

This particular quote from ch 6 was not discussed before. Personally I find it to cause even more problems for this theory - if Ishar already claims to be Honor's champion, why would he search for one at all? He doesn't need a new champion when he views himself as the champion of Honor. Quotes from RoW ch 111 confirms that he already sees himself as the one who will fight against Odium's champion and the Almighty himself.

Quote

“He claims to be the Almighty,” Sigzil said. “God, born again, after being shattered. He says he’s waiting for Odium’s champion to come and fight him for the end of the world. I think he means you, sir.”
[...]
“Champion of Odium,” Ishar said in a loud, deep voice, speaking Azish. “It has been a long wait.”
“I am not Odium’s champion,” Dalinar said. “I wish to be your ally in facing him, however.”
“Your lies cannot fool me. I am Tezim, first man, aspect of the Almighty. I alone prepare for the end of the worlds."
[...]
“Fight me, champion! Face me alone!”
“I brought no weapon, Ishar,” Dalinar said. “The time for the contest of champions has not yet come.”
[...]
“… to defeat you, champion of Odium! We will clash again, and I am ready for your wiles this time! You will not defeat me when next we meet, though you bear a corrupted Honorblade that bleeds black smoke! I am ALMIGHTY.”

 

 

Edited August 21, 2024 by alder24

[Elder]

17 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Hello, welcome to the Shard. Check out Sharder FAQ for some useful tips.

 

We've discussed a little bit of the consequences of the new version of the prologue in relation to the Stormfaker theory here, specifically starting from this post and in some other topics in this subsection. 

This particular quote from ch 6 was not discussed before. Personally I find it to cause even more problems for this theory - if Ishar already claims to be Honor's champion, why would he search for one at all? He doesn't need a new champion when he views himself as the champion of Honor. Quotes from RoW ch 111 confirms that he already sees himself as the one who will fight against Odium's champion and the Almighty himself.

 

 

How long has Ishar been Tezim?  As I understand it (and I invite correction) the dispute between Emul and Tukar has been going on for ages, but was aggravated by the rise of Tezim, right around the time Gavilar died.

I’m not certain whether I buy the Stormfaker theory or not, but I can see a scenario where Ishar, frustrated with Gavilar’s failure, particularly due to his religion, would resort to starting his own religion, and eventually was consumed by it.  We’re dealing with people who may not make rational choices here, so it’s difficult to discern their actions.  But I can see it.

Edited August 21, 2024 by Elder

[Isilel]

I have a different theory - Ishar was the Herald who died on the night of Gavilar's assassination. The Stormfather(?) said "They mustn't see! They mustn't know!" when the Herald died and IIRC the whole Tezim thing started shortly afterwards. Ishar saw what he shouldn't have and reacted in his madness.

Yes, I know about the Chana theory. I have a number of problems with it, but the main one is - she didn't do anything of note between her alleged death and the current point in the series. The only point of it being her would be to heap even more guilt on Shallan, which is frankly unnecessary and excessive. 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Elder said:

How long has Ishar been Tezim?  As I understand it (and I invite correction) the dispute between Emul and Tukar has been going on for ages, but was aggravated by the rise of Tezim, right around the time Gavilar died.

He became the God-Priest of Tukar in 1167 - the same year Gavilar died. I do like that the timeline fits very well, but in my opinion nothing else fits. 

1 hour ago, Elder said:

I’m not certain whether I buy the Stormfaker theory or not, but I can see a scenario where Ishar, frustrated with Gavilar’s failure, particularly due to his religion, would resort to starting his own religion, and eventually was consumed by it.  We’re dealing with people who may not make rational choices here, so it’s difficult to discern their actions.  But I can see it.

And this is one of my biggest problems with Ishar being the Stormfaker, which I repeatedly pointed out in the main theory thread - how on the 10th name of the Almighty did Ishar remain sane for 4,500 years, just to become madly insane after Gavilar died? The Stormfaker is too mentally stable to be Ishar. That doesn't work for me. Heralds are all mad because they lived for too long and Ishar is no exception. There are even suggestions that Ishar was already consumed by his insanity well before Gavilar was killed - when he ordered Nale killing all Radiants decades before 1167. This simply doesn't work. 

Not to mention that Heralds can't feel each other's regular death, or that Ishar didn't have his Honorblade that night, so he couldn't hack his way into Stormfather's Connection with Gavilar - he reclaimed it sometime after OB.

 

32 minutes ago, Isilel said:

I have a different theory - Ishar was the Herald who died on the night of Gavilar's assassination. The Stormfather(?) said "They mustn't see! They mustn't know!" when the Herald died and IIRC the whole Tezim thing started shortly afterwards. Ishar saw what he shouldn't have and reacted in his madness.

So how did he return from Braize 7 whole years earlier than Taln? Why didn't Fused return shortly after Ishar? I don't think this is possible at all, otherwise this Desolation would have started within the year after Gavilar's assassination. It didn't start back then, which means the Herald who died remained on Braize until Taln returned.

35 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Yes, I know about the Chana theory. I have a number of problems with it, but the main one is - she didn't do anything of note between her alleged death and the current point in the series. The only point of it being her would be to heap even more guilt on Shallan, which is frankly unnecessary and excessive. 

Most Heralds didn't do much in those 4,500 years. Only Kalak and Nale did something big, they were involved in capturing BAM and that's it. The rest started to be active shortly before the True Desolation - including Nale's killing spree. Heralds aren't the central characters of SA anymore, they abandoned that role during Aharietiam. They don't have to do anything of note. Jezrien didn't do anything except drink before he died. And Chana couldn't have done much since she died, because she spent most of that time on Braize - which kind of prevents her from doing things of note on Roshar. 

And we still don't know where Vedel is and because of that imo she's the only Herald that could have died that night. We know where the rest were, what they are doing, we know they couldn't have died. But we know nothing about Chana and Vedel - only they could be killed in 1167. 

[CtrlAltDepressed]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

And this is one of my biggest problems with Ishar being the Stormfaker, which I repeatedly pointed out in the main theory thread - how on the 10th name of the Almighty did Ishar remain sane for 4,500 years, just to become madly insane after Gavilar died? The Stormfaker is too mentally stable to be Ishar.

Nale is as crazy as they come, but he still has goals he goes for, and can have a coherent conversation. 

 

I really like this quote in this context. 

 

It makes complete sense to me that Ishar, in his madness, was searching for a Champion. He, like Nale, would have sensed something coming and started to look for a solution. A quick conversation with Gavilar, or with someone close to Gavilar (Kalak for example), would reveal that Gavilar is looking for power and immortality. 

 

Ishar, as the closest thing to Honor until Dalinar, should know the contents of the visions. That doesnt seem like a stretch to me. So, what does he do? He talks to the stormfather. The Stormfather tells him to get lost, as Stormfather even in Way of Kings was not happy that he had to help. Stormfather tells us that he sees Ishar screaming at him when he passes over. I bet this is the Stormfather lying by omission, and he actually interacted with Ishar a lot more than he lets on.

 

The Stormfather wont help, but Ishar knows what needs to be done. Someone worthy needs to be shown the visions to accept the call to action. Ishar chooses Gavilar as he is already looking for this, and he is the most powerful man on Roshar. 

 

Ishar imitates the Stormfather, which we see in the epilogue. Gavilar is too prideful and narcissistic to get the true message of the visions, and then he dies. Ishar, frustrated that he seems to have no help, 'realizes' in his madness that he needs to do it himself. He declares himself the Champion and sets off to win the war. The first thing he needs is resources, so he declares himself God King of Tukar. 

 

Think about it - Ishar has been hanging around on Roshar since they abandoned Taln. What has he been doing all this time? Since Gavilars death he has effectively taken over a nation, waged war on others, and is doing something no one has ever done before. He is trying to pull spren into the physical realm (probably to force Radiant bonds). He also retrieves his Honorblade. That is a lot of action in a small timeframe for someone who has basically done nothing for thousands of years. 

 

This also helps explain why he was immediately hostile to Dalinar. Yes, he has the Connection to Odium, but he also had a huge Connection to Honor. 

 

However, in the prologue, the Stormfaker remarks that he will never trust a Kholin again. Of course he would assume that Dalinar would have similar motivations as his brother. If not for Cultivation, Dalinar might have similar ambitions / would still be a complete drunk, so that isn't too far off. 

 

I was kind of on the fence about Stormfaker vs Stormfather, but this seals the deal for Stormfaker for me. 

 

I dont remember the Stormfather talking about Champions at all until Oathbringer. And it wasnt really his idea. He told Dalinar that is what Odium would ask for (which is true). 

Meanwhile, Ishar is proclaiming himself Honors Champion. 

EDIT TO ADD MORE EVIDENCE:

 

Gavilar is in this vision, without being in a highstorm. The stormfather told us multiple times that he can only take people into visions if they are in the highstorm. He was able to bring Dalinar in without one due to the strength of their bond. I think this points even more to Ishar and Stormfaker. Why would the Stormfather limit himself to only highstorms with Dalinar but not with Gavilar?

Edited August 21, 2024 by CtrlAltDepressed

[Elder]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

He became the God-Priest of Tukar in 1167 - the same year Gavilar died. I do like that the timeline fits very well, but in my opinion nothing else fits. 

And this is one of my biggest problems with Ishar being the Stormfaker, which I repeatedly pointed out in the main theory thread - how on the 10th name of the Almighty did Ishar remain sane for 4,500 years, just to become madly insane after Gavilar died? The Stormfaker is too mentally stable to be Ishar. That doesn't work for me. Heralds are all mad because they lived for too long and Ishar is no exception. There are even suggestions that Ishar was already consumed by his insanity well before Gavilar was killed - when he ordered Nale killing all Radiants decades before 1167. This simply doesn't work. 

Not to mention that Heralds can't feel each other's regular death, or that Ishar didn't have his Honorblade that night, so he couldn't hack his way into Stormfather's Connection with Gavilar - he reclaimed it sometime after OB.

 

 

Do we actually have a timeline on when honor blades were reclaimed by Ishar or Nale?  Or when Nale started executing radiants?

the latter event may be an (extreme) extension of the Recreance: Surgebinding was deemed too dangerous, and evidently willfully severing the bond with the Spren was catastrophic to the Spren…. So kill the would be surge binder first.  Not saying it’s right or sane, but there is something to it.

I do have a thought on a factor that may be aggravating the Heralds mental illness.  It involves their honor blades.

The Honor Blades each constitute significant investiture, to the point of transforming the Heralds into cognitive shadows, or Avatars of Honor.  I wonder, therefore, if the bond between themselves and the Blades wouldn’t go both ways, and abandoning the blades wouldn’t do a certain amount of Spiritual Damage, similar to giving up Breath.  
 

I don’t necessarily believe that recovering their blades would heal them as

a. There is already significant damage from extended life and torture

b. They are no longer the same people who took up the blades.  As such, reclaiming the blade may actually cause a certain amount of cognitive dissonance.  Perhaps reclaiming the blades made both Nale and Ishar worse.

Also, I wonder if their madness, and the cognitive dissonance with their Blades, didn’t start when they started “bending their oath.”  Every time they failed and let a Desolation squeak through, they became a little bit less of the Herald they were meant to be.  Their intent and the intent of their power misaligning.

Edited August 21, 2024 by Elder

[alder24]

3 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Nale is as crazy as they come, but he still has goals he goes for, and can have a coherent conversation. 

But they are still the same person. Nale is cold as ice, Kalak can't make decisions, is having tantrums or tries to escape mid-conversation, Ash is using every opportunity she has to remind everyone not to worship her and Jez is just drunk, rumbling about voices in his head. They all can have coherent conversations but their madness shines through - Ishar would be recognisable in the Stormfaker, there was nothing of Ishar in that person.

3 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

It makes complete sense to me that Ishar, in his madness, was searching for a Champion. He, like Nale, would have sensed something coming and started to look for a solution. A quick conversation with Gavilar, or with someone close to Gavilar (Kalak for example), would reveal that Gavilar is looking for power and immortality. 

Afair, Nale didn't feel something was coming, it was all Ishar's idea decades before Gavliar was assassinated. RoW ch 77:

Quote

“We didn’t do anything to return them,” she said, taking a gamble based on what he’d said earlier. “It was what you did.”
“Impossible,” Nale repeated. “Ishar said only a Connection between the worlds could cause a bridge to open. And Taln has not given in. I would know if he had.…”

OB ch 40:

Quote

 Nale himself is ruthless, without pity or mercy. He has spent the last two decades—perhaps much longer—dealing with anyone close to bonding a spren.

 

3 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Ishar, as the closest thing to Honor until Dalinar, should know the contents of the visions.

How was Ishar the closest thing to Honor? The Oathpact was broken, his Connection was nearly non-existent, he lacked his Honorblade to hijack the visions to learn what's inside - he was 100% incapable of knowing about the visions. Only the real Stormfather knew.

3 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

I bet this is the Stormfather lying by omission, and he actually interacted with Ishar a lot more than he lets on.

The Stormfather is lying, huh? So if he can lie to Dalinar, why not to Gavilar? If he can lie to Gavilar, why is there even a need for the Stormfaker? 

This line of argumenting doesn't make a lot of sense in relation to the Stormfaker, it actually speaks in favor of the Stormfather.

3 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Ishar imitates the Stormfather, which we see in the epilogue.

The real Stormfather was showing visions to Gavilar - that was confirmed a long time ago by a WoB. The Stormfather has to be part of it (which raises a lot of questions, like why did he ignore conversations going on between Gavilar and the void, which Gavilar also called the Stormfather, or didn’t react when Gavilar entered visions without his assistance etc).

Spoiler

Questioner

The visions Dalinar gets in WoK always struck me as odd - you don't just look at the past, you are able to act within this experience. Now we know that Gavilar was also on the way to being a Bondsmith - was he acting in a different way? Were the visions only basically the same but different in the end depending on the personal reactions? Is this something like a test?

Brandon Sanderson

He did see the same visions. They were the same thing. But... I will say that his reaction to them were very different from Dalinar's reactions to them. Anyway it was difficult for the Stormfather without a bond to determine/to tell the difference between very easily. When Spren are bonded, they gain a lot more ability to understand the world around then, so you'll find out soon more stuff about this in the third book.

Leipzig Book Fair (March 24, 2017)

 

3 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

That is a lot of action in a small timeframe for someone who has basically done nothing for thousands of years. 

The same can be said about Kalak, Battar, or Nale...

3 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

However, in the prologue, the Stormfaker remarks that he will never trust a Kholin again. Of course he would assume that Dalinar would have similar motivations as his brother. If not for Cultivation, Dalinar might have similar ambitions / would still be a complete drunk, so that isn't too far off. 

And yet, the Stormfather noticed Dalinar's potential - that's not a faker speaking, that's the real Stormfather. The Stormfather tried with others, but eventually only Dalinar was left - that's why he went back on his words and tried a different approach. It's not the first time when the Stormfather went back on his words, remember Dalinar swearing his Oaths?

Spoiler

Mr_Magatar

When Gavilar died, it took the Stormfather around five years before Dalinar started to get visions. Outside of those two, have there been any other that the Stormfather started to give visions to? If so, care to give a number?

Brandon Sanderson

Don't care to give a number, but there are others that were at least investigated.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

 

3 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

I dont remember the Stormfather talking about Champions at all until Oathbringer. And it wasnt really his idea. He told Dalinar that is what Odium would ask for (which is true). 

Maybe because the Stormfather didn't talk to Dalinar openly until OB? And in one of the earliest chapters of OB the Stormfather is telling Dalinar about it, OB ch 16:

Quote

“I’ve seen that the enemy is preparing a champion,” Dalinar said. “A dark creature with red eyes and nine shadows. Will Honor’s suggestion work? Can I make Odium agree to a decisive contest between me and that champion?”
Of course Honor’s suggestion would work, the Stormfather said. He spoke it.
“I mean,” Dalinar said, “why would it work? Why would this Odium ever agree to a contest of champions? It seems too momentous a matter to risk on something so small and inferior as the prowess and will of men.”
Your enemy is not a man like you, the Stormfather replied, voice rumbling, thoughtful. Even … frightened. He does not age. He feels. He is angry. But this does not change, and his rage does not cool. Epochs can pass, and he will remain the same.
To fight directly might coax out forces that could hurt him, as he has been hurt before. Those scars do not heal. To pick a champion, then lose, will only cost him time. He has that in plenitude. He still will not agree easily, but it is possible he will agree. If presented with the option in the right moment, the right way. Then he will be bound.
“And we win…”
Time, the Stormfather said. Which, though dross to him, is the most valuable thing a man can have.

 

3 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Gavilar is in this vision, without being in a highstorm. The stormfather told us multiple times that he can only take people into visions if they are in the highstorm. He was able to bring Dalinar in without one due to the strength of their bond. I think this points even more to Ishar and Stormfaker. Why would the Stormfather limit himself to only highstorms with Dalinar but not with Gavilar?

Maybe there was a proto-bond existing between them, just like between Kal and Syl. The Stormfather was meant to choose a Bondsmith and he chose Gavilar at first. They didn't have a full bond, but they did share a stronger Connection - the Stormfather talked to him, showed himself to him, was near him etc. He probably could have done this with Dalinar too (he did talk to him at the end of WoR), but he never revealed himself to Dalinar (because he tried differently this time) and Dalinar had no chance to request it (looks like Gavilar requested to see this vision because he eneded it on command).

 

2 hours ago, Elder said:

Do we actually have a timeline on when honor blades were reclaimed by Ishar or Nale?  Or when Nale started executing radiants?

Nale started to kill Radiants at least two decades before OB, he reclaimed his Honorblade waaaaay earlier. 

OB ch 106:

Quote

He stopped at the top of the steps and looked down at his hand, where a glistening Shardblade appeared. One of the two missing Honorblades. Szeth’s people had care of eight. Once, long ago, it had been nine. Then this one had vanished.

As for when Ishar reclaimed his Honorblade, Szeth knew Shins had all blades except for Nale and Taln's blades. Ishar said he reclaimed his Honorblade when he went to Shinovar, which started to worship Unmades and he saved them from Unmades. There was nothing wrong in Shinovar when Rysn visited it in WoK, Shinovar was fine in OB when they were exchanging messages with Dalinar, only after OB did they isolated themselves and even started to shot arrows at Windrunners. This suggests it's around this time Unmades appear in Shinovar and only after this did Ishar regained his Honorblade. Long after Gavilar died.

2 hours ago, Elder said:

the latter event may be an (extreme) extension of the Recreance: Surgebinding was deemed too dangerous, and evidently willfully severing the bond with the Spren was catastrophic to the Spren…. So kill the would be surge binder first.  Not saying it’s right or sane, but there is something to it.

That wasn't the reason. The reason was to prevent a bridge from forming (quote above), but it was fine when thousands of Radiants existed before and during Recreance? No danger of any bridge back then? I’m not buying it, it's insanity shining through Ishar. 

2 hours ago, Elder said:

The Honor Blades each constitute significant investiture, to the point of transforming the Heralds into cognitive shadows, or Avatars of Honor.  I wonder, therefore, if the bond between themselves and the Blades wouldn’t go both ways, and abandoning the blades wouldn’t do a certain amount of Spiritual Damage, similar to giving up Breath.  

They ARE Cognitive Shadows, whether they have their Honorblades or not. The timeline of the First Desolation is very uncertain, we don't know if Heralds became CS before Honorblades or after, but Honorblades are more of a gift - they aren't Connected to the Oathpact. Also, the bond with Honorblades isn't as deep as the one with Spren (if even a spren bond didn't help Nale alleviate his madness, a Honorblade won't help at all). Moreover, we've already seen signs of Kalak and Jezrien insanity in the prelude - they are subtle, but they are there already.

2 hours ago, Elder said:

Also, I wonder if their madness, and the cognitive dissonance with their Blades, didn’t start when they started “bending their oath.”  Every time they failed and let a Desolation squeak through, they became a little bit less of the Herald they were meant to be.  Their intent and the intent of their power misaligning.

This is a common thing for all Cognitive Shadows, Fused suffer the same fate. A mortal soul is simply not made to live for thousands of years under torture. But there is a sense of guilt contributing to it - but it's not about intents.

Spoiler

Questioner

Why or how are the Heralds the only ones we've seen so far that are affected by magical maladies due to either their high Investiture or long lives?

Brandon Sanderson

I would argue the Fused are having the same situation, so they're not the only ones. The why and how... there's a whole host of things going on here. Like a lot of physical and mental illness, it's not one thing or the other. But it is a compound of other things.

One is going so long without certain protections that you kind of need to take. The human being's soul might be immortal, depending on your argument in the cosmere. (That's really up to you.) But they certainly aren't meant for thousands of years of existence, the same way that our bodies aren't. There's some of that.

There's some of the things they've been through. Like, legit trauma; this is not all simply a magical ailment. You've got people with PTSD, layers of PTSD on top of layers of PTSD, for thousands of years, bearing things that no human being without their level of Investiture would even be able to bear. You've got that manifestation, you've got their own sense of guilt.

And these things are all just kind of overlapping together with the fact they've been alive for so, so very long. And a lot of the people that you've seen otherwise have not been alive nearly... orders of magnitude more for the Heralds. The only people you've seen that are that old are: some of the dragons, Hoid, and Vessels of various Shards. And you're basically at that group. And this is a group who knows what they're doing. Either they were built like the dragons, this is part of their innate nature, that they are functionally immortal. Or you are getting the Shards. Or you're getting people that are 300 years old, which is a very different thing, cosmere-wise, than having lived for thousands and thousands of years, part of it being torture.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

[Ashbringer he/him]

2 hours ago, Elder said:

Do we actually have a timeline on when honor blades were reclaimed by Ishar or Nale?  Or when Nale started executing radiants?

At minimum, around the time when Shallan was young and killed her mother (whether she was Chana or not). Her mom was associating with Skybreakers at the time, and that's allegedly why she freaked when she found out Shallan was Radiant.

2 hours ago, Elder said:

I do have a thought on a factor that may be aggravating the Heralds mental illness.  It involves their honor blades.

The Honor Blades each constitute significant investiture, to the point of transforming the Heralds into cognitive shadows, or Avatars of Honor.  I wonder, therefore, if the bond between themselves and the Blades wouldn’t go both ways, and abandoning the blades wouldn’t do a certain amount of Spiritual Damage, similar to giving up Breath.  

I thought that the Heralds were made into CSs by virtue of the Oathpact, and thus continued in as shadows from then on. Otherwise Moash would become a Cognitive Shadow over the year between OB and RoW (and maybe Szeth as well). Maybe a minor distinction, but it doesn't seem to be tied to the Honorblades specifically. But if they were crafted as a continuing part of their soul, then abandoned, I could see that contributing to the damage.

 

I don't think Ishar specifically is the Storm-faker, but I also think the extent of his insanity is strange compared to the other Heralds (save Taln, but Taln makes sense... mostly). Kalak/Battar/Pailiah/Nale/Shalash are all around and talking to people, Jezrien was a bit more insane but seemed mostly... normal-insane, not I-am-the-Almighty-and-now-rule-Tukar insane. Something probably happened when the Herald died, if it was Ishar or not. Maybe he saw the "they mustn't see" that the Storm"father" mentioned...

[Elder]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

As for when Ishar reclaimed his Honorblade, Szeth knew Shins had all blades except for Nale and Taln's blades. Ishar said he reclaimed his Honorblade when he went to Shinovar, which started to worship Unmades and he saved them from Unmades. There was nothing wrong in Shinovar when Rysn visited it in WoK, Shinovar was fine in OB when they were exchanging messages with Dalinar, only after OB did they isolated themselves and even started to shot arrows at Windrunners. This suggests it's around this time Unmades appear in Shinovar and only after this did Ishar regained his Honorblade. Long after Gavilar died.

That wasn't the reason. The reason was to prevent a bridge from forming (quote above), but it was fine when thousands of Radiants existed before and during Recreance? No danger of any bridge back then? I’m not buying it, it's insanity shining through Ishar. 

They ARE Cognitive Shadows, whether they have their Honorblades or not. The timeline of the First Desolation is very uncertain, we don't know if Heralds became CS before Honorblades or after, but Honorblades are more of a gift - they aren't Connected to the Oathpact. Also, the bond with Honorblades isn't as deep as the one with Spren (if even a spren bond didn't help Nale alleviate his madness, a Honorblade won't help at all). Moreover, we've already seen signs of Kalak and Jezrien insanity in the prelude - they are subtle, but they are there already.

This is a common thing for all Cognitive Shadows, Fused suffer the same fate. A mortal soul is simply not made to live for thousands of years under torture. But there is a sense of guilt contributing to it - but it's not about intents.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Why or how are the Heralds the only ones we've seen so far that are affected by magical maladies due to either their high Investiture or long lives?

Brandon Sanderson

I would argue the Fused are having the same situation, so they're not the only ones. The why and how... there's a whole host of things going on here. Like a lot of physical and mental illness, it's not one thing or the other. But it is a compound of other things.

One is going so long without certain protections that you kind of need to take. The human being's soul might be immortal, depending on your argument in the cosmere. (That's really up to you.) But they certainly aren't meant for thousands of years of existence, the same way that our bodies aren't. There's some of that.

There's some of the things they've been through. Like, legit trauma; this is not all simply a magical ailment. You've got people with PTSD, layers of PTSD on top of layers of PTSD, for thousands of years, bearing things that no human being without their level of Investiture would even be able to bear. You've got that manifestation, you've got their own sense of guilt.

And these things are all just kind of overlapping together with the fact they've been alive for so, so very long. And a lot of the people that you've seen otherwise have not been alive nearly... orders of magnitude more for the Heralds. The only people you've seen that are that old are: some of the dragons, Hoid, and Vessels of various Shards. And you're basically at that group. And this is a group who knows what they're doing. Either they were built like the dragons, this is part of their innate nature, that they are functionally immortal. Or you are getting the Shards. Or you're getting people that are 300 years old, which is a very different thing, cosmere-wise, than having lived for thousands and thousands of years, part of it being torture.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

Szeth’s knowledge is dated to some undefined point before Gavilar’s assassination, so therefore not enough to go on. While Rysn’s experience trading with the Shin in their border regions is a fair point, I wouldn’t call it definitive and I don’t think vague and cryptic (adj., not Spren) spanread messages are at all convincing evidence that all was well in Shinovar.

As for the Heralds, I’m fully aware that their longevity and the torture was wearing on them long before they abandoned the Oathpact, and already acknowledged as much in my post.  I still think that they may have aggravated their conditions every time they compromised the Oathpact, especially when they abandoned it, and that reclaiming their blades without addressing their problems probably made both Nale and Ishar worse.

 

Regarding the Radiants before and during the Recreane, I do believe a huge difference that’s been repeatedly brought up is that up until that point, Honor was there to check the power of the Radiants.  After his death, it stands to reason that Nale and Ishar might have taken to regulating in their own insane way.  And yes, the main part of the danger would be Radiants creating that bridge.

As for the Heralds being Cognitive Shadows without their Blades… of course.  And Kelsier was still a cognitive Shadow after he was released from the Well of Ascension.  Vin could have been, despite Sazed holding the power.  Having been bonded to the Investiture expands the mind and soul enough, whether you keep the power or not.

Edited August 22, 2024 by Elder

[alder24]

11 hours ago, Elder said:

Szeth’s knowledge is dated to some undefined point before Gavilar’s assassination, so therefore not enough to go on.

Around 2 years before his assassination. 

11 hours ago, Elder said:

While Rysn’s experience trading with the Shin in their border regions is a fair point, I wouldn’t call it definitive and I don’t think vague and cryptic (adj., not Spren) spanread messages are at all convincing evidence that all was well in Shinovar.

That's fair, but it's a significant change of behavior - from a nation that's open to the outside world to complete isolation and hostility within a year. And even Spren in RoW mentioned weird things happening in Shinovar - something that wasn't said before, which once again is pointing out to the arrival of Unmades. That's a big coincidence. Too big to be ignored. RoW ch 22:

Quote

“Fused to the east,” the peakspren captain said, pointing. “Strange things in Shinovar. Honorspren acting uppity. Nobody wants to travel.”

Additionally, Unmades were generally dormant without Odium's presence on Roshar and ongoing Desolation. It's obviously not true for all of them, the Thrill and Moelach were quite active, but Moelach was inactive until 1166. And we know from Kholinar that Unmade influence is huge and hard to miss, drastically affecting behaviors of people around them. It doesn't fit that Shinovar remained under Unmade's influence for nearly a decade without any weirdness going on there and nobody noticing it. 

12 hours ago, Elder said:

As for the Heralds, I’m fully aware that their longevity and the torture was wearing on them long before they abandoned the Oathpact, and already acknowledged as much in my post.  I still think that they may have aggravated their conditions every time they compromised the Oathpact, especially when they abandoned it, and that reclaiming their blades without addressing their problems probably made both Nale and Ishar worse.

But the Honorblades aren't Connected to the Oathpact in the magical sense. Nale is as insane as Kalak, Ash or Jez, who all didn't reclaim their Honorblades. I don't see this as a compelling argument, otherwise Nale would be much worse than others.

Spoiler

Questioner

When the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact, why did they believe they needed to leave their Honorblades behind as they disbanded? Did they know what would happen to their blades after they left them?

Brandon Sanderson

There's a couple things going on here. If you've read Way of Kings Prime, there is built, originally into the Honorblades, the ability to find other Honorblades by using them. This has not been canonized into the cosmere as it exists yet, but it is still a power that's in the back of my mind, it is most likely something you can access with the Honorblades: let you find the others. This is calling back to the old Fred Saberhagen Swords books, which were part of the inspiration for these. So one reason they would leave them behind, the lesser reason, is: they're supposed to go split up, and they don't want to see each other. They want to leave them behind, because it's like: "The others might be able to find me. We're going our separate ways. We are done."

But the greater reason, the canon reason, that you can cite is that idea of: "I am walking away from being a Herald. This was the gift I was given, and a representation of that gift I was given, that represents me standing up for humankind. And I am no longer willing to do that, so I have to give this thing up." And they all knew it. They didn't have to be told it, because they knew what they were doing meant they didn't deserve those anymore. Not in a magical sense, but in a sort of philosophical and moral sense.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

[CtrlAltDepressed]

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

Afair, Nale didn't feel something was coming, it was all Ishar's idea decades before Gavliar was assassinated. RoW ch 77:

Even more evidence for Ishar imo. 

 

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

How was Ishar the closest thing to Honor? The Oathpact was broken, his Connection was nearly non-existent, he lacked his Honorblade to hijack the visions to learn what's inside - he was 100% incapable of knowing about the visions. Only the real Stormfather knew.

Before Dalinar, the person who had the greatest Connection to Honor (and greatest ability to manipulate that Connection) was Ishar. The Stormfather has seen this coming for a long time. Honor left those visions in his care a long time ago. Not only do I think it should be possible for Ishar, through his Connection to the Stormfather, to see the contents of those visions, it is certainly possible the Stormfather willingly showed them to Ishar in one of the many years before way of kings begins. 

 

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

The Stormfather is lying, huh? So if he can lie to Dalinar, why not to Gavilar? If he can lie to Gavilar, why is there even a need for the Stormfaker? 

This line of argumenting doesn't make a lot of sense in relation to the Stormfaker, it actually speaks in favor of the Stormfather.

My main problem with this is with Stormfather going for Gavilar at all. The wob you provided says that spren, when not bonded, cannot understand the world very well. Ok, so he didn't understand that slaughtering all across your nation simply for the pursuit of your own power wasn't the mark of an Honorable man - seriously? The creature that holds a piece of Tanavast thought that was a good candidate? However, at the same time, he was able to notice the potential in Dalinar. A man who, until Gavilar dies, is a helpless drunk who's only skills lie in killing - which he does because he likes the way it makes him feel. 

 

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

Maybe there was a proto-bond existing between them, just like between Kal and Syl. The Stormfather was meant to choose a Bondsmith and he chose Gavilar at first. They didn't have a full bond, but they did share a stronger Connection - the Stormfather talked to him, showed himself to him, was near him etc. He probably could have done this with Dalinar too (he did talk to him at the end of WoR), but he never revealed himself to Dalinar (because he tried differently this time) and Dalinar had no chance to request it (looks like Gavilar requested to see this vision because he eneded it on command).

So the Stormfather was actively sabotaging his own efforts? This doesn't make any sense. When Dalinar gets the visions, he is uncontrollably thrown into them, while he convulses and chants in ancient language on the floor, which has to happen during a Highstorm. How are Gav and Dals experiences at all comparable? The only similarity between them is the content of the visions. 

 

The Stormfather howls in pain when Dalinar makes him manifest, and has NEVER shown up as a person to him. Showing up as a person has little to no consequence on the Stormfathers mission. In fact, it would have helped Dalinar come to grips with what is happening to him a lot sooner. There is no reason for him to never do that again. 

 

If Gavilar and the Stormfather had a proto-bond, that pretty much destroys the 'Stormfather wasnt bonded so he wasnt very aware' defense. It is undeniable that Dalinar and Stormfather are more bonded now than Gav and Stormfather would have been, yet even when Stormfather officiates Dalinars wedding, he does not manifest as a person (iirc). 

 

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

“I’ve seen that the enemy is preparing a champion,” Dalinar said. “A dark creature with red eyes and nine shadows. Will Honor’s suggestion work? Can I make Odium agree to a decisive contest between me and that champion?”
Of course Honor’s suggestion would work, the Stormfather said. He spoke it.
“I mean,” Dalinar said, “why would it work? Why would this Odium ever agree to a contest of champions? It seems too momentous a matter to risk on something so small and inferior as the prowess and will of men.”
Your enemy is not a man like you, the Stormfather replied, voice rumbling, thoughtful. Even … frightened. He does not age. He feels. He is angry. But this does not change, and his rage does not cool. Epochs can pass, and he will remain the same.
To fight directly might coax out forces that could hurt him, as he has been hurt before. Those scars do not heal. To pick a champion, then lose, will only cost him time. He has that in plenitude. He still will not agree easily, but it is possible he will agree. If presented with the option in the right moment, the right way. Then he will be bound.
“And we win…”
Time, the Stormfather said. Which, though dross to him, is the most valuable thing a man can have.

Even more evidence in my opinion. Stormfather is not looking for a champion in Dalinar. He is having Dalinar set the terms. Stormfather has been very uninvolved in this process beyond providing the visions. He didn't want to reveal information, and had Dalinar come to the champion conclusion on his own. We STILL don't know that Dalinar will be the champion. That seems way off compared to actively searching for a Champion in the prologue. 

 

[Isilel]

19 hours ago, alder24 said:

Why didn't the Fused return shortly after Ishar?

 

IMHO there is evidence that the nine Heralds can no longer trigger a Desolation and may not be drawn all the way onto Braize when they die. It would seem that Ishar changed the Oathpact immediately prior to/during Aharietam to hinge on Taln alone. There are a number of things that make me think this:

1. Decision to abandon the Oathpact was made even though they didn't know that Kalak had survived. If he had died, then he should have started another Desolation before the year was out, yes? But somehow Ishar and Co. thought that it was feasible to go through with it anyway. This only makes any kind of sense if Kalak no longer mattered.

2. Nale mentioned "certain measures we took" to prevent another Desolation and how (unrestricted) surge-binding could undo them.

3. Jezrien was completely nonchalant and unafraid when he thought that he was being murdered by mundane means. Not like someone fearing torture and being forced to cause the Final Desolation. But like someone who knew from experience that he had nothing to fear.

I would also like to point out that in the Chana theory she would have had more than a  year to do something after her alleged return, but didn't.

Yet, "They mustn't see, they mustn't know!" must have been included for a reason - Stormfather/Faker was afraid of a Herald's reaction to learning something. And who among the Heralds is currently the most active and dangerous? Not Chana, that's for sure.

It is also not true that Heralds haven't done much since Aharietam - Ishar, Nale and Kalak have done plenty and were particularly active during the last decade or so, including the series proper.

And the timing of Ishar's recent frenzy of activity does roughly fit with him having been the one who died and learned something that he shouldn't have.

@CtrlAltDepressed:

The Stormfather appeared as an indistinct humanoid figure in RoW. Chapter 107, IIRC or thereabouts.

Edited August 22, 2024 by Isilel

[alder24]

1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Even more evidence for Ishar imo. 

Disagree. This shows us that Ishar was already mad and should have been visibly mad when interacting with Gavilar. The Stromfather was way too stable to be Ishar.

1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Before Dalinar, the person who had the greatest Connection to Honor (and greatest ability to manipulate that Connection) was Ishar.

Firstly, he most likely had no Honorblade, thus no ability to manipulate any Connection. Secondly there is no proof that Ishar had the greatest Connection to Honor/Stormfather. Truthfully, Kaladin in his youth had way greater Connection to Honor than Ishar due to his desire to protect, help and his proto-bond with Syl. 

1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

it is certainly possible the Stormfather willingly showed them to Ishar in one of the many years before way of kings begins. 

Why? He didn't like Ishar at all. And he hated Heralds for breaking their Oaths. He wouldn't have done this. OB ch 38:

Quote

I LONG BLAMED THEM, the Stormfather said, FOR THEIR LACK OF HONOR. IT IS … DIFFICULT FOR ME TO LOOK PAST OATHS BROKEN. I HATED THEM

RoW ch 111:

Quote

The Stormfather paused, then rumbled more softly. I never liked him. Though I was only a wind then—and not completely conscious—I remember him. Ishar was ambitious even before madness took him.

 

1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

My main problem with this is with Stormfather going for Gavilar at all. The wob you provided says that spren, when not bonded, cannot understand the world very well. Ok, so he didn't understand that slaughtering all across your nation simply for the pursuit of your own power wasn't the mark of an Honorable man - seriously?

You mean the creature that understands human desire for possession, who burnt and destroyed countless cities, killing and spreading misery on his way, would not understand Gavilar's actions? Conquest and destruction wasn't something alien, nor bad to the Stormfather - it was natural. It was part of him. He had no problem with this, for him being Honorable means keeping your oaths. The Stormfather even said it himself - there are no foolish oaths. He doesn't care about destruction Gavilar caused, he cared only about the uniting he was able to accomplish and oaths he kept. Even Honor cared only for bonds by the end, not for being good.

OB ch 4:

Quote

I’m surprised,” Dalinar whispered to the spren, “you agreed to this so willingly. Grateful, but still surprised.”
I respect all oaths, the Stormfather responded.
“What about foolish oaths? Made in haste, or in ignorance?”
There are no foolish oaths. All are the mark of men and true spren over beasts and subspren. The mark of intelligence, free will, and choice

OB ch 31:

Quote

“Then surely with that soul, mind, and memory,” Kaladin said, “you can find mercy for the people below.”
AND WHAT OF THE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS WHO HAVE DIED IN THESE WINDS BEFORE? SHOULD I HAVE HAD MERCY FOR THEM?
“Yes.”
AND THE WAVES THAT SWALLOW, THE FIRES THAT CONSUME? YOU WOULD HAVE THEM STOP?
“I speak only of you, and only today. Please.”
Thunder rumbled. And the Stormfather actually seemed to consider the request.
IT IS NOT SOMETHING I CAN DO, SON OF TANAVAST. IF THE WIND STOPS BLOWING, IT IS NOT A WIND. IT IS NOTHING.

OB ch 57:

Quote

“Honor cared only for bonds. Not the meaning of bonds and oaths, merely that they were kept."

OB ch 87:

Quote

Why did you bond me?” Dalinar whispered to the Stormfather. “Shouldn’t you have picked a man who was just?”
Just? Justice is what you brought to those people.
“That was not justice. That was a massacre.”
The Stormfather rumbled. I have burned and broken cities myself. I can see … yes, I see a difference now. I see pain now. I did not see it before the bond.

OB ch 113:

Quote

“We weren’t able to confine ourselves to what we were given.”
When has any man ever been content with what he has?

RoW ch 71:

Quote

“Take mercy upon them,” Dalinar said. “Temper your fury, Stormfather.”
It is not fury. It is me.
“Then protect them,” Dalinar said as the stormwall hit, plunging the illfated men into darkness.
Should I protect all who venture out into me?
“Yes.”
Then do I stop being a storm, stop being me?
“You can be a storm with mercy.”
That defies the definition and soul of a storm, the Stormfather said.

 

1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

However, at the same time, he was able to notice the potential in Dalinar. A man who, until Gavilar dies, is a helpless drunk who's only skills lie in killing - which he does because he likes the way it makes him feel. 

A man who kept his words.

1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

So the Stormfather was actively sabotaging his own efforts? This doesn't make any sense. When Dalinar gets the visions, he is uncontrollably thrown into them, while he convulses and chants in ancient language on the floor, which has to happen during a Highstorm. How are Gav and Dals experiences at all comparable? The only similarity between them is the content of the visions. 

Because when he exposed himself to Gavilar that made him lazy and susceptible to wrong conclusions coming from religious upbringing. He said he will try a different way and this fits well. He didn't say anything to Dalinar, he let him figure stuff out on his own. It didn't make him lazy. He made a huge mistake with Gavilar and corrected it when interacting with Dalinar.

Quote

I regret the way I have treated you, the Stormfather said. I should not have been so accommodating. It has made you lazy.
“This is lazy?” Gavilar said, forcing amusement into his voice to hide his annoyance.
You do not reverence the position you seek, the Stormfather said.
[...]
Ah, Gavilar, the Stormfather said. I see my miscalculation. Your entire religious upbringing… created from the lies of Aharietiam and Honor’s own failings… it pointed you toward this conclusion.
[...]
This is my failure as much as yours, the Stormfather said. If I try again, I will do it differently. I thought… your family…

 

1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

The Stormfather howls in pain when Dalinar makes him manifest, and has NEVER shown up as a person to him.

Firstly, Dalinar tried to manifest him as a physical body, not a figure like Gavilar saw. Secondly, I cannot count the number of times when I proved that the Stormfather showed himself in the same form to Dalinar on multiple occasions. Literally in the very first chapter of OB:

Quote

He searched the sky and discovered a ripple in the air, like heat rising from distant stone. A shimmer the size of a building.

OB ch 34:

Quote

As he folded his arms to watch, he noted a shimmering in the air beside him.
“We’ll want to send her more of these,” Dalinar said to the Stormfather.

OB ch 38:

Quote

Dalinar turned to the side, to where he glimpsed the air shimmering. The Stormfather.

RoW ch 107:

Quote

The Stormfather appeared beside him, moving in the air alongside Dalinar —a rare occurrence. The Stormfather never had features. Merely a vague impression of a figure the same size as Dalinar, yet extending into infinity.

Never you said?

1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

If Gavilar and the Stormfather had a proto-bond, that pretty much destroys the 'Stormfather wasnt bonded so he wasnt very aware' defense.

But they weren't bonded YET. That was a weird thing happening because of echoes from the Spiritual Realm. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Why is Kaladin so proficient-- Like naturally born to wield a spear. Is that a weapon he likes or is it a destiny for him?

Brandon Sanderson

So destiny is a strong term... I would say he has natural aptitude, but no more so than a normal person who has a natural aptitude for something. But the way the Spiritual Realm works in the cosmere and the way Connection works, there were certain things that were happening to Kaladin before they happened...

It's like Syl says in one of the books. "You didn't know me then, but I knew you then. Even though we hadn't met yet, I still knew you." You see some weird Connection things too. And these are mostly just for fun sort of cosmere connections. Like when you see Syl take on the look of Shallan standing on the beach. There's gonna be a connection there. It's forming, it doesn't exist yet, but all things are one in the Spiritual Realm, and we're just kinda seeing echoes of that. It's not meant to be destiny, it's more meant to be, "Hey there's little connections happening".

I would not say Kaladin is any more naturally gifted in that than your average professional sports player is naturally gifted in what they do.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Even more evidence in my opinion. Stormfather is not looking for a champion in Dalinar.

Look again at that quote and you will find the reason. The Stormfather already found his champion - Dalinar accepted that he will be the champion.

Quote

Can I make Odium agree to a decisive contest between me and that champion?”

 

1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

That seems way off compared to actively searching for a Champion in the prologue. 

"If I try again, I will do it differently."

Edited August 22, 2024 by alder24

[Elder]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

 

That's fair, but it's a significant change of behavior - from a nation that's open to the outside world to complete isolation and hostility within a year. And even Spren in RoW mentioned weird things happening in Shinovar - something that wasn't said before, which once again is pointing out to the arrival of Unmades. That's a big coincidence. Too big to be ignored. RoW ch 22:

Additionally, Unmades were generally dormant without Odium's presence on Roshar and ongoing Desolation. It's obviously not true for all of them, the Thrill and Moelach were quite active, but Moelach was inactive until 1166. And we know from Kholinar that Unmade influence is huge and hard to miss, drastically affecting behaviors of people around them. It doesn't fit that Shinovar remained under Unmade's influence for nearly a decade without any weirdness going on there and nobody noticing it. 

But the Honorblades aren't Connected to the Oathpact in the magical sense. Nale is as insane as Kalak, Ash or Jez, who all didn't reclaim their Honorblades. I don't see this as a compelling argument, otherwise Nale would be much worse than others.

  Hide contents

Questioner

When the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact, why did they believe they needed to leave their Honorblades behind as they disbanded? Did they know what would happen to their blades after they left them?

Brandon Sanderson

There's a couple things going on here. If you've read Way of Kings Prime, there is built, originally into the Honorblades, the ability to find other Honorblades by using them. This has not been canonized into the cosmere as it exists yet, but it is still a power that's in the back of my mind, it is most likely something you can access with the Honorblades: let you find the others. This is calling back to the old Fred Saberhagen Swords books, which were part of the inspiration for these. So one reason they would leave them behind, the lesser reason, is: they're supposed to go split up, and they don't want to see each other. They want to leave them behind, because it's like: "The others might be able to find me. We're going our separate ways. We are done."

But the greater reason, the canon reason, that you can cite is that idea of: "I am walking away from being a Herald. This was the gift I was given, and a representation of that gift I was given, that represents me standing up for humankind. And I am no longer willing to do that, so I have to give this thing up." And they all knew it. They didn't have to be told it, because they knew what they were doing meant they didn't deserve those anymore. Not in a magical sense, but in a sort of philosophical and moral sense.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

Were they that open?  My impression was that unless they trusted you, you weren’t getting very far.  I could be wrong.

I would argue that Nale and Ishar are worse than the other heralds.  I’d argue that becoming a serial killer or a God King over a holy war is considerably worse than decision paralysis or compulsory vandalism.  Just sayin’. Though Kalak’s affiliation with the sons of honor might prove me wrong, depending on how much of their crap was on him and how much was on its members (like Amaram).

As for the Honor Blades, maybe it’s a bit less about a magical link to the Oathpact and a bit more about the Blades Connection to the Heralds themselves.  My entire premise here is that those Blades are Spiritually connected to the Heralds and their Identity, being tied to their greatest virtues.  Leaving them behind may mean leaving behind some of the best parts of themselves.

One other thing about Ishar…. Wasn’t he a powerful surgebinder before he was given his Honor Blade?

Edited August 22, 2024 by Elder

[listerfeend]

21 minutes ago, Elder said:

One other thing about Ishar…. Wasn’t he a powerful surgebinder before he was given his Honor Blade?

Yes, he was the first to experiment with surgebinding on Ashyn, was the surgebinder that discovered how to worldhop, and it's my understanding that he was the one that enabled the mass exodus, I think I might be assuming that he was the Bondsmith that amplified the Elsecalling to get them to Roshar. Whether or not he still has those abilities is honestly up for debate in my head.

It doesn't seem like too far a stretch to me to assume that he could at least find some way to access those abilities now...he's something like 7000 years old, and at the very least used to have powers not related to Honorblades or being a Herald at all. It would not be unreasonable to assume that he'd be able to forge some kind of Connection to enable him to regain at least some amount of access to those abilities. None of that seems out of the question to me, and feels like it gets ignored quite often in these conversations. 

Edited August 22, 2024 by listerfeend

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Elder said:

Were they that open?  My impression was that unless they trusted you, you weren’t getting very far.  I could be wrong.

Turing from "sending a congratulation letter after Dalinar discovered Urithiru," or "informing about incoming Everstorn before the Thaylen battle" to "shooting Windrunners out of the sky" is a massive change.

OB ch 24:

Quote

"The Shin sent only a quick reply to congratulate us, whatever that means.”

OB ch 111:

Quote

“The Everstorm just hit Shinovar,” Queen Fen finally explained, reading over a scribe’s shoulder.
[...]
The room buzzed with conversations as the various groups received reports from their contacts in Tashikk, who in turn would be relaying information from contacts in Iri, Steen, or even Shinovar

RoW ch 17:

Quote

“Scouts sent to Shinovar vanish,” Dalinar said. “Windrunner flybys prompt storms of arrows. They don’t want anything to do with us.”

RoW I-3:

Quote

She handed him a small bundle of his favorite jams, all the way from Shinovar. Those were increasingly rare, now that trade into the strange country had cut off. The Diagram indicated it was likely one or more of the Unmade had set up there.

That last one is of big importance. Even Diagram predicted that Unmades settled in Shinovar around this time, there was no mention of it before RoW. It's a clear causal effect - trade with Shinovar being cut off is a direct result of one of the Unmade. Trade and communication were ongoing before RoW, thus there were no Unmades there yet.

1 hour ago, Elder said:

I would argue that Nale and Ishar are worse than the other heralds.  I’d argue that becoming a serial killer or a God King over a holy war is considerably worse than decision paralysis or compulsory vandalism.  Just sayin’. Though Kalak’s affiliation with the sons of honor might prove me wrong, depending on how much of their crap was on him and how much was on its members (like Amaram).

I'm not convinced. Every Herald pivoted into a different extreme, for me they all aren't that different.

1 hour ago, Elder said:

As for the Honor Blades, maybe it’s a bit less about a magical link to the Oathpact and a bit more about the Blades Connection to the Heralds themselves.  My entire premise here is that those Blades are Spiritually connected to the Heralds and their Identity, being tied to their greatest virtues.  Leaving them behind may mean leaving behind some of the best parts of themselves.

But they don't have any Connection to their Honorblades, they broke it when they'd abandoned them. The WoB in my previous response indicates that Honorblades were just a gift and they had no magical importance to Heralds and the Oathpact. They abandoned them because of guilt. Moreover, a bond with Honorblades is not as deep as with a spren, which doesn't change when a Herald is bonded to one (because their efficiency stays the same). Heralds even swapped blades to train with other Surges. They shouldn't have such an effect on them. Not to mention that signs of madness were already visible in WoK prelude.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

A full-blown Radiant can heal almost anything (cut from a Shardblade included) because of the way the magic works--their soul is literally bonded to Investiture, and it suffuses them in such a way that even the soul is very resilient to damage.

Honorblades are what you'd consider a "prototype" for what eventually happened with Shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous--but since the bond isn't as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more Stormlight, for example, and can't heal to the extent that a Radiant can.

So the difference is not in the device that did the damage, but in the method using to heal. Over the course of the first two book, the reader should be able to subtly pick out differences from what Szeth says is possible (in more than just healing) and what Kaladin experiences.

General Reddit 2017 (Sept. 8, 2017)

 

Spoiler

18th_Shard

Does a Herald using an Honorblade consume the same "dangerous" amounts of Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

Honorblades are less efficient; this doesn't change when a Herald uses them. (But they have other advantages.)

uchoo786

Are Honorblades closer in power to Nightblood than they are to Shardblades made from Spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Hard to say. They're all similar, but at the same time, very different. And in a way, Nightblood is what you might call a "Third Generation" blade.

uchoo786

Ah gotcha. And in this analogy, Honorblades would be 1st gen and Sprenblades would be 2nd gen?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 4, 2015)

 

1 hour ago, Elder said:

One other thing about Ishar…. Wasn’t he a powerful surgebinder before he was given his Honor Blade?

He was - on Ashyn. He was the first one who experimented with Surges and is one of the people who are to blame for its destruction. However we know very little of those powers and even less of the events that happened when the migration and the First Desolation happened. What we know is that Ashynite Surgebinding is a disease based magic system, where people with illnesses get magical powers. Ishar is a Cognitive Shadow - he's immune to any disease. However, this magic system was a little bit different before the destruction of Ashyn, but how different we have no idea. 

Spoiler

Questioner

So I was reading that one of the worlds, I think it was Yolen, is going to be a disease oriented magic?

Brandon Sanderson

It's not Yolen, it's Ashyn...

Questioner

How does that work?

Brandon Sanderson

Viruses and bacteria, various strains of them, have evolved in-line with the Investiture on the planet to grant you a magical ability when you catch the disease, because they want you to stay alive long enough to--

Questioner

To transmit it.

Brandon Sanderson

--o transmit it. So it becomes part of the transmission vector. So you have superpowers or whatever-- You can fly as long as you have the common cold, but when you get over it, you can't anymore.

Firefight Seattle Public Library signing (Jan. 7, 2015)

 

Spoiler

R'Shara

So on Ashyn, was the magic system always diseased based?

Brandon Sanderson

That was the diseased based magic.

R'Shara

Yeah, before-

Brandon Sanderson

I'll RAFO that. It isn't exactly the same as it was.

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

 

[Elder]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Turing from "sending a congratulation letter after Dalinar discovered Urithiru," or "informing about incoming Everstorn before the Thaylen battle" to "shooting Windrunners out of the sky" is a massive change.

OB ch 24:

OB ch 111:

RoW ch 17:

RoW I-3:

That last one is of big importance. Even Diagram predicted that Unmades settled in Shinovar around this time, there was no mention of it before RoW. It's a clear causal effect - trade with Shinovar being cut off is a direct result of one of the Unmade. Trade and communication were ongoing before RoW, thus there were no Unmades there yet.

I'm not convinced. Every Herald pivoted into a different extreme, for me they all aren't that different.

But they don't have any Connection to their Honorblades, they broke it when they'd abandoned them. The WoB in my previous response indicates that Honorblades were just a gift and they had no magical importance to Heralds and the Oathpact. They abandoned them because of guilt. Moreover, a bond with Honorblades is not as deep as with a spren, which doesn't change when a Herald is bonded to one (because their efficiency stays the same). Heralds even swapped blades to train with other Surges. They shouldn't have such an effect on them. Not to mention that signs of madness were already visible in WoK prelude.

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson

A full-blown Radiant can heal almost anything (cut from a Shardblade included) because of the way the magic works--their soul is literally bonded to Investiture, and it suffuses them in such a way that even the soul is very resilient to damage.

Honorblades are what you'd consider a "prototype" for what eventually happened with Shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous--but since the bond isn't as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more Stormlight, for example, and can't heal to the extent that a Radiant can.

So the difference is not in the device that did the damage, but in the method using to heal. Over the course of the first two book, the reader should be able to subtly pick out differences from what Szeth says is possible (in more than just healing) and what Kaladin experiences.

General Reddit 2017 (Sept. 8, 2017)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

18th_Shard

Does a Herald using an Honorblade consume the same "dangerous" amounts of Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

Honorblades are less efficient; this doesn't change when a Herald uses them. (But they have other advantages.)

uchoo786

Are Honorblades closer in power to Nightblood than they are to Shardblades made from Spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Hard to say. They're all similar, but at the same time, very different. And in a way, Nightblood is what you might call a "Third Generation" blade.

uchoo786

Ah gotcha. And in this analogy, Honorblades would be 1st gen and Sprenblades would be 2nd gen?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 4, 2015)

 

He was - on Ashyn. He was the first one who experimented with Surges and is one of the people who are to blame for its destruction. However we know very little of those powers and even less of the events that happened when the migration and the First Desolation happened. What we know is that Ashynite Surgebinding is a disease based magic system, where people with illnesses get magical powers. Ishar is a Cognitive Shadow - he's immune to any disease. However, this magic system was a little bit different before the destruction of Ashyn, but how different we have no idea. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

So I was reading that one of the worlds, I think it was Yolen, is going to be a disease oriented magic?

Brandon Sanderson

It's not Yolen, it's Ashyn...

Questioner

How does that work?

Brandon Sanderson

Viruses and bacteria, various strains of them, have evolved in-line with the Investiture on the planet to grant you a magical ability when you catch the disease, because they want you to stay alive long enough to--

Questioner

To transmit it.

Brandon Sanderson

--o transmit it. So it becomes part of the transmission vector. So you have superpowers or whatever-- You can fly as long as you have the common cold, but when you get over it, you can't anymore.

Firefight Seattle Public Library signing (Jan. 7, 2015)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

R'Shara

So on Ashyn, was the magic system always diseased based?

Brandon Sanderson

That was the diseased based magic.

R'Shara

Yeah, before-

Brandon Sanderson

I'll RAFO that. It isn't exactly the same as it was.

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

 

There’s a problem with your timeline:  trade and communication has been cut off with Shinovar in Rhythm of War… but Ishar has his honor blade at this point and has responded to the unmade being there.  Based on your earlier quote, wouldn’t that indicate that their hostility is more a product of Ishar (who is certainly Hostile to Dalinar and his coalition) coming than the Unmade?  Either way, it upholds your timeline, albeit there’s still a fair amount we don’t know.  Probably will be fleshed out in the RPG.

Edit:  thinking about it, it throws a lot of questions into the timeline.  Main question in my head: which came first?  Shinovar’s weird congratulations? Or Tezim’s unhinged letter denouncing Dalinar’s taking of Urithiru.  A whole can happen.

Either way, given that Kaladin’s going to Shinovar for Ishar, I’d contend their hostility is more a product of Ishar than of the Unmade.

Tendency towards homicide (including becoming a serial killer, leading a “holy” war, and the murder of Spren for science) is kinda a big deal.  It’s the difference between letting the mentally ill maintain their freedom (whether at home or on the street) and committing them to a padded room.  Those two are clearly a danger to themselves and/or others.  None of the others are that I’m aware.

Kinda my point: breaking that Connection would hurt them.  I imagine breaking any connection is pretty damaging, but especially for cognitive beings.  Yes, they were showing signs before they broke the Oathpact.  Like I already said:  I’m not saying it’s the original source of the madness. Time and Torture certainly took their toll.  I’m suggesting ditching the blades aggravated it.  Please register that this time.

as for Ishar’s power… an awful lot we don’t know there.  I’m comfortable speculating where I don’t know.  You clearly aren’t.

Edited August 22, 2024 by Elder

[teknopathetic he/him]

There is a possibility that Ishar actually isn't totally insane (or only recently became thios catastrophically insane)

All the other heralds seem to think he was holding it together. We have discounted the heralds as being too insane themselves to judge, but surely a Kelek had seen Unchained Ishar, Kelek would have been ... suspicious of insanity. I think we need to give the heralds credit in their ability to pinpoint obvious madness like that. If Ishar has been insane, he was at least cogent enough to hide it from others or trick the other heralds into not noticing. 

So maybe Ishar is only recently insane. Or perhaps Ishar is acting intentionally crazy for reasons only he knows. 

I just cant believe the heralds would have seen him in the recent past and not raised an eyebrow at contemporary Ishar behaviour. If ishar is crazy now, he seems to be the most catastrophically crazy, and I just don't think Ashe would fail to notice that and thought "he seems good" 

Edited August 22, 2024 by teknopathetic

[Elder]

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

There is a possibility that Ishar actually isn't totally insane (or only recently became thios catastrophically insane)

All the other heralds seem to think he was holding it together. We have discounted the heralds as being too insane themselves to judge, but surely a Kelek had seen Unchained Ishar, Kelek would have been ... suspicious of insanity. I think we need to give the heralds credit in their ability to pinpoint obvious madness like that. If Ishar has been insane, he was at least cogent enough to hide it from others or trick the other heralds into not noticing. 

So maybe Ishar is only recently insane. Or perhaps Ishar is acting intentionally crazy for reasons only he knows. 

I just cant believe the heralds would have seen him in the recent past and not raised an eyebrow at contemporary Ishar behaviour. If ishar is crazy now, he seems to be the most catastrophically crazy, and I just don't think Ashe would fail to notice that and thought "he seems good" 

Depends on how much of Nale’s Murder Spree was Ishar’s Idea.  We know it was based on his advice.  The question is whether Nale’s the one who decided that the neophyte Radiants all had to die.

That said, Ishar did become Tezim right around when Gavilar died.  I’d assume his mad science experiments on Spren started after that point, since the Tukari are the ones abducting Spren from Shadesmar.

Edited August 22, 2024 by Elder

[Isilel]

1 hour ago, Elder said:

as for Ishar’s power… an awful lot we don’t know there

 

I think that Ishar has born a Dawnshard in the past. In particular the one mentioned in the "poem of Ista" that "can bind any creature mortal or voidish" (paraphrasing) and that's how he had been able to create the Oathpact before he received his honorblade and why he is known as "the binder of gods".

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Elder said:

There’s a problem with your timeline:  trade and communication has been cut off with Shinovar in Rhythm of War… but Ishar has his honor blade at this point and has responded to the unmade being there.

We don't know when it happened, we know that during RoW all contact with Shinovar was broken - not that it happened during RoW. It happened before RoW started. We don't know what Ishar did with Unmades, he might have been corrupted by them, or might have started working with them - we have no idea. All we know that the arrival of Unmades in Shinovar predates Ishar's recovery of his Honorblade and all the weirdness in Shinovar started after OB. 

1 hour ago, Elder said:

Based on your earlier quote, wouldn’t that indicate that their hostility is more a product of Ishar (who is certainly Hostile to Dalinar and his coalition) coming than the Unmade?

So how is it that the Unmades remained undetected and didn't affect anything in Shinovar? Even the Diagram assumes that Shinovar stopping their trade is due to an Unmade - and they literally can track Unmades, they tracked Moelach location in OB. We know from Kholinar and Urithiru that there are weird things happening around Unmades, those would be really hard to miss. Weirdness appeared after OB, that's fitting to Unmades and attributing all of this to Ishar doesn't fit - there are no unusual things happening in CR around Tukar for example. 

1 hour ago, Elder said:

Either way, given that Kaladin’s going to Shinovar for Ishar, I’d contend their hostility is more a product of Ishar than of the Unmade.

Why not both? I doubt Unmades are gone from Shinovar, it's more likely that they are still very active, just like Ishar is exploiting the instability of Shinovar. The palace guard in Kholinar became quite hostile due to Unmades. 

2 hours ago, Elder said:

Edit:  thinking about it, it throws a lot of questions into the timeline.  Main question in my head: which came first?  Shinovar’s weird congratulations? Or Tezim’s unhinged letter denouncing Dalinar’s taking of Urithiru.  A whole can happen.

Shin's congratulations.

2 hours ago, Elder said:

Kinda my point: breaking that Connection would hurt them.  I imagine breaking any connection is pretty damaging, but especially for cognitive beings.  Yes, they were showing signs before they broke the Oathpact.  Like I already said:  I’m not saying it’s the original source of the madness. Time and Torture certainly took their toll.  I’m suggesting ditching the blades aggravated it.  Please register that this time.

I do understand your arguments, but I'm saying that we know from WoBs that the bond to Honorblades isn't that deep, they don't have any magical component related to the Oathpact or Heralds, abandoning them shouldn't cause them any additional harm. 

 

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

I think we need to give the heralds credit in their ability to pinpoint obvious madness like that.

Yes, let's give Ash credits to pinpoint insanity, what could go wrong, Coppermind:

Quote

She considers all the Heralds --except herself and maybe Ishar -- to be mad from thousands years of torture.

Oh...

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

So maybe Ishar is only recently insane. Or perhaps Ishar is acting intentionally crazy for reasons only he knows. 

That's why I'm saying that the fact he ordered Radiants to be killed, suggests he was just as insane decades ago. 

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

I just cant believe the heralds would have seen him in the recent past and not raised an eyebrow at contemporary Ishar behaviour.

Nale didn't. Edgedancer ch 9:

Quote

“I saw them return,” the assassin whispered. “The new storm, the red eyes. You are wrong, Nin-son-God. You are wrong.”
“A fluke,” Darkness said, his voice firm. “I contacted Ishar, and he assured me it is so."

OB ch 106:

Quote

“I visited Ishar,” Nin continued. “You call him Ishu-son-God. He has always been the most wise of us. I did not … want to believe … what had happened.”

OB ch 121:

Quote

He nodded. “Centuries spent on Braize—the place you call Damnation— stole my ability to feel. We each cope somehow, but only Ishar survived with his mind intact. Regardless, you are certain you wish to follow a man with your oath?”

After contacting Ishar, seeing and talking to him, Nale still concluded that Ishar is the only one with his mind intact. The same Ishar who wrote this in OB ch 26:

Quote

“ ‘A warning,’ ” Navani read, “ ‘from Tezim the Great, last and first man, Herald of Heralds and bearer of the Oathpact. His grandness, immortality, and power be praised. Lift up your heads and hear, men of the east, of your God’s proclamation.
“ ‘None are Radiant but him. His fury is ignited by your pitiful claims, and your unlawful capture of his holy city is an act of rebellion, depravity, and wickedness. Open your gates, men of the east, to his righteous soldiers and deliver unto him your spoils.
“ ‘Renounce your foolish claims and swear yourselves to him. The judgment of the final storm has come to destroy all men, and only his path will lead to deliverance. He deigns to send you this single mandate, and will not speak it again. Even this is far above what your carnal natures deserve.’ ”

Yeah, Heralds can't spot insanity even if it stands right in front of their eyes. 

 

54 minutes ago, Elder said:

Depends on how much of Nale’s Murder Spree was Ishar’s Idea.  We know it was based on his advice.  The question is whether Nale’s the one who decided that the neophyte Radiants all had to die.

It looks like it was Ishar's idea. Edgedancers ch 9:

Quote

“But…” said the male initiate. “Is it really … I mean, shouldn’t we want them to return, so we won’t be the only order of Knights Radiant?”
“Unfortunately, no,” Darkness said. “I once thought as you, but Ishar made the truth clear to me. If the bonds between men and spren are reignited, then men will naturally discover the greater power of the oaths. Without Honor to regulate this, there is a small chance that what comes next will allow the Voidbringers to again make the jump between worlds. That would cause a Desolation, and even a small chance that the world will be destroyed is a risk that we cannot take. Absolute fidelity to the mission Ishar gave us—the greater law of protecting Roshar—is required.”

But Nale didn't kill all of them, whenever he had a chance, he made them join Skybreakers instead. OB ch 40:

Quote

Sometimes he recruited these people, bonding them to highspren and making them Skybreakers.

And he killed only those he had a legal reason to, who commited a crime in the past. OB ch 106:

Quote

“I know you are great, ancient, and wise,” Szeth said. “But … to my lesser eyes, you do not seem to obey your own precepts. You hunted Surgebinders, as you said.”
“I obtained legal permission for the executions I performed.”

WoR I-2:

Quote

“I had to look very hard,” the man said, “to discover your indiscretion.”
“I . . .” Ym stammered. “Just . . . five chips . . .”
“You have lived a clean life, since your youth as a carouser,” the man said, his voice even. “A young man of means who drank and partied away what his parents left him. That is not illegal. Murder, however, is.”

 

[teknopathetic he/him]

17 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, let's give Ash credits to pinpoint insanity, what could go wrong, Coppermind:

 

 

Is she perfect?  No. Did she identify that most of the heralds are now insane? Yes.

She very reasonably misjudged her own insanity because she understood her own goals. To her, it is sane to want to destroy the false idols of her divinity. She isnt murdering people or scrawling proficies with her own feces. 

But looking at modern Ishar? If Ishar was even 50% as insane as he is on RoW, Ash would have pegged him as mad. Destroying your own false effigies is no where near as crazy as god king Ishar. Ashe is not mutilating sentient beings in her madness. She hasnt convinced herself that she is god. And to me, I see how that looks sane. 

But why did she judge Ishar as sane and not the other heralds? Clearly Ishar was able to project something that had convinced her more so than other heralds. Even if she is 100% kookoo bananas, Ishar has been able to fool the other heralds better than average amongst his peer group. I don't know if it is history. I don't know if it is pageantry. I don't know if it is actual sanity. But the fact Ishar has convinced 8 other cray immortals that he is sane is rather impressive. People in mental wards wouldn't be able to do that. 

And at a certain point, if you are able to convince 8 other immortal beings looking for insanity that you are a rational acting being who somehow wasnt affected, at what point are you a rational being who isn't insane because you can pull that off? It takes a certain amount of self awareness to pull that off. More awareness than God King Ishar seems to have at any rate.

Convincing yourself through self delusion that you are sane is reletively easy. But pulling off that ruse for 4000 years to a group of people in the same boat as you? Impressive. 

God King Ishar wouldn't be able to fool any herald, so what gives? Ishar is not just destroying his own effigies. He is nutzo and any herald would disagree with his godhood, We haven't seen any herald agree, at any rate. I highly doubt Ashe will say "no, I think he is right. He is the god king".

Is it that he true desolation pushed him over the edge? Is he is over acting? Is it a bluff? I don't know, but something is off here. 

Edited August 23, 2024 by teknopathetic

[alder24]

5 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Is she perfect?  No. Did she identify that most of the heralds are now insane? Yes.

She very reasonably misjudged her own insanity because she understood her own goals. To her, it is sane to want to destroy the false idols of her divinity. She isnt murdering people or scrawling proficies with her own feces. 

But looking at modern Jezrian? If Jezrian was even 50% as insane as he is on RoW, Ash would have pegged him as mad. Destroying your own false effigies is no where near as crazy as god king Ishar. Ashe is not mutilating sentient beings in her madness. She hasnt convinced herself that she is god. And to me, I see how that looks sane. 

But why did she judge Ishar as sane and not the other heralds? Clearly Ishar was able to project something that had convinced her more so than other heralds. Even if she is 100% kookoo bananas, Ishar has been able to fool the other heralds better than average amongst his peer group. I don't know if it is history. I don't know if it is pageantry. I don't know if it is actual sanity. But the fact Ishar has convinced 8 other cray immortals that he is sane is rather impressive. People in mental wards wouldn't be able to do that. 

And at a certain point, if you are able to convince 8 other immortal beings looking for insanity that you are a rational acting being who somehow wasnt affected, at what point are you a rational being who isn't insane because you can pull that off? It takes a certain amount of self awareness to pull that off. More awareness than God King Ishar seems to have at any rate.

Convincing yourself through self delusion that you are sane is reletively easy. But pulling off that ruse for 4000 years to a group of people in the same boat as you? Impressive. 

God King Ishar wouldn't be able to fool any herald, so what gives? Ishar is not just destroying his own effigies. He is nutzo and any herald would disagree with his godhood, We haven't seen any herald agree, at any rate. I highly doubt Ashe will say "no, I think he is right. He is the god king".

Is it that he true desolation pushed him over the edge? Is he is over acting? Is it a bluff? I don't know, but something is off here. 

Insane Ishar, who doesn't even know he's insane, who doesn't even think he's Ishar anymore, doesn't sound like a person who is capable of acting sane. How can he think of acting sane if he doesn't know he's nuts? What's more likely, him understanding the difference between sanity and madness and being able to deceive Nale and others while leading religious fanatics into a senseless war and openly ranting about being Almighty, sole bearer of the Oathpact and other insane claims, or that Heralds perceiving Ishar as sane is part of their own insanity? I find the latter to be much more likely. Other Heralds were proven to be untrustworthy in their judgement of what's sane or insane, Ishar included, we clearly can't trust their opinion of Ishar.

Ishar was always a leader among them, the one who always had solutions to every problem, the one who understood realmatic theory and knew what was going on. He led the exodus from Ashyn, he came up with the Oathpact, he bound Surges, he created Knights Radiant, he came up with Aharietiam - he was always leading them with ideas and they've always trusted him. Now in their insanity, this trust has risen to unreasonable levels, to the point that they dismiss every evidence that shows them he's not trustworthy anymore, that his mind is as broken as theirs - just like Ash dismiss every evidence that she herself is insane.

[Ashbringer he/him]

On 8/22/2024 at 2:13 PM, alder24 said:

So how is it that the Unmades remained undetected and didn't affect anything in Shinovar? Even the Diagram assumes that Shinovar stopping their trade is due to an Unmade - and they literally can track Unmades, they tracked Moelach location in OB. We know from Kholinar and Urithiru that there are weird things happening around Unmades, those would be really hard to miss. Weirdness appeared after OB, that's fitting to Unmades and attributing all of this to Ishar doesn't fit - there are no unusual things happening in CR around Tukar for example. 

A few things on this - Moelach is really easy to track. The Diagram has an outside interest in the Death Rattles, where they are, where they're going, and Moelach seems to be like Nergaoul/Ashertmarn where these things just kind of happen around them, with limited control over it.

Yelig-Nar, for instance, was also in Kholinar without being called out, and Dai-Gonarthis and Cheomarish are still MIA (although probably at least one's in Shinovar).

 

14 hours ago, alder24 said:

Ishar was always a leader among them, the one who always had solutions to every problem, the one who understood realmatic theory and knew what was going on. He led the exodus from Ashyn, he came up with the Oathpact, he bound Surges, he created Knights Radiant, he came up with Aharietiam - he was always leading them with ideas and they've always trusted him. Now in their insanity, this trust has risen to unreasonable levels, to the point that they dismiss every evidence that shows them he's not trustworthy anymore, that his mind is as broken as theirs - just like Ash dismiss every evidence that she herself is insane.

I think also, Ishar seems to have been sane for most of time - or at least, Ash-level insane and not God-Priest-of-Tukar-and-also-the-Almighty-and-Bondsmith insane. This whole literal god complex is new. And when you're a Herald who's lived for seven thousand years, and known Ishar to be a sane and upstanding guy for most of those millenia, the eight/ten years of him going completely insane is hard to rationalize, like if someone you know for a really long time has One Bad Day and just suddenly snaps. Worse than that, because we've already seen with Heralds (mostly Nale bringing Skybreakers to safehouses full of rotten food) that they really don't have a good sense of the passage of time.

Something changed with Ishar, and I doubt it's a coincidence that it happened right after another Herald died.

(Also, as I recall it's at least partially Ishar's fault that they had to flee from Ashyn in the first place.)

 

On 8/22/2024 at 2:13 PM, alder24 said:

Yes, let's give Ash credits to pinpoint insanity, what could go wrong,

I agree, I'm an excellent source to pinpoint insanity... waitaminute.