You can Hemalurgically Steal any Attribute that can be Feruchemically Stored?

[Steel Speedster ♂]

So, a while ago, I came across this WoB:

Quote

PhantomMonstrosity

Could you steal any trait Hemalurgically that can be stored Feruchemically?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you could steal any trait that can be stored.

General Signed Books 2015 (Jan. 6, 2015)

We know that H-iron steals strength, H-tin steals senses, H-zinc steals memories, H-duralumin steals Connectioni and Identity, and F-nicrosil's power is covered by H-steel, H-pewter, H-brass, H-bronze, H-cadmium, H-bendalloy, H-gold, and H-electrum, but that's only six out of sixteen attributes that can be stored Feruchemically. Are there really god metal alloys for each of the other Feruchemical attributes? Weight? Speed? Mental speed? Warmth? Wakefulness? Fortune? Breath? Nutrition? Health? Determination? Some of these seem like really overpowered abilities. Stealing physical speed would make someone essentially twice as fast as normal all the time. Stealing mental speed would make someone think twice as fast all the time. Then there are some that would be really weird. If you stole warmth, all the heat would probably flow out of you again in a matter of minutes. If you stole wakefulness, it would probably give you an extra day's worth of wakefulness (assuming the donor had just woken up) and then have no effect for the rest of your life. The amount of breath that a normal person has at one time is so small that it would do essentially nothing if you stole it. Stealing nutrition would basically transfer all of the nutrition that the donor had to the recipient, and it would then run out fairly quickly. I'm not sure about determination. Determination does fluctuate in a person, but it doesn't just run out like other attributes do. Stealing determination might actually add the donor's current level of determination to the recipient permanently.

We do know that attribute spikes, like these, cause more deformation in the recipient than Hemalurgic spikes that transfer abilities, so that somewhat inhibits the usefulness of these spikes. But Koloss, even if it isn't exactly desirable to be one are very dangerous and are made with four H-iron (strength) spikes. Imagine a creature with four speed spikes! Or four mental speed spikes! It would be equivalent to a Feruchemist tapping the attribute at a 400% rate, at all times!

Fortunately, if these spikes are in fact possible, they'd be ridiculously expensive, assuming that they are made with god metal alloys. Allomancers use atium in bead form, and that grants a decent amount of power; Feruchemists need larger pieces god metal for metalminds, but they can reuse them as long as they need. Hemalurgists on the other hand, need a good size chunk to make a spike (though this is up for debate--we haven't heard much about spike size, but I would assume that if it's too small it won't hold as much of the attribute you're trying to steal, and some will go to waste), and they need a new spike for every instance of the attribute they want to steal.

This seems so crazy, that I've wondered if Brandon was actually just trying to say that you can steal any Feruchemical power with Hemalurgy. But that seems like a silly mistake to make, and the language he uses to answer sounds like he understands exactly what the questioner is asking. I've never seen anyone talking about this before, and it seems like a pretty huge thing to me, so I've been a little cautious accepting it as true.

Edited August 13, 2024 by Speeding Steelrunner

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

21 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Hemalurgists on the other hand, need a good size chunk to make a spike (though this is up for debate--we haven't heard much about spike size, but I would assume that if it's too small it won't hold as much of the attribute you're trying to steal,

Just a quick note: The Lost Metal described the size of the spikes the Set uses.

TLM Chapter 8

Spoiler

She proffered the spikes, each six inches long with a thick head- save for the smallest, most interesting one, which was narrow and thin, barely 4 inches long.

So they can be decently small, unlike the railroad spikes used by the Steel Inquisitors, which I believe to be mostly for intimidation.

 

Anyway, I do really hope it is possible to steal stuff like speed because that would be awesome. Also if H-Speed would work like F-Steel speed, it might speed up an allomancer's burn speed which would strength their powers.

It would probably have to be god metal alloys that steal other attributes, like maybe an Iron/Atium alloy steals speed or something. It would be interesting.

Edit:

Oh yeah also the Spikes can be as small as an ear stud and still work fine, Vin's sure did.

Edited August 13, 2024 by JustQuestin2004

[alder24]

16 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

If you stole warmth, all the heat would probably flow out of you again in a matter of minutes. If you stole wakefulness, it would probably give you an extra day's worth of wakefulness (assuming the donor had just woken up) and then have no effect for the rest of your life.

I disagree. When you steal strength it doesn't run out. You don't steal physical attributes, you're stealing a part of the spirit web encoding that attribute into your body and then hotwire it into your spirit web - you're changing your spirit web, which tells your body how it looks/behaves. That's why it's permanent. Stealing speed, warmth, wakefulness etc would change the part of your spirit web, which tells your body how much heat it generates, how much energy it uses, how fast it is etc. It will stay like this until you remove that spike. 

20 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

The amount of breath that a normal person has at one time is so small that it would do essentially nothing if you stole it.

The average lung capacity is around 6 liters. By stealing breath I'm guessing you will increase your lung capacity instead of stealing useless air. That's a sizable change. What Hemalurgy does doesn't have to be the same as Feruchemy, it has to be similar (copper spike steals intelligence, but there is no Feruchemical intelligence attribute). 

22 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Stealing nutrition would basically transfer all of the nutrition that the donor had to the recipient, and it would then run out fairly quickly.

It might increase your metabolism, making it far more efficient at providing nutrients (like Koloss are able to eat ash to survive).

However, I must point out that I believe that stealing any physical attribute will lead to serious physical deformation to facilitate that increase. Some changes might be not so visible, others might totally change your body. This is because you're modifying your spirit web parts responsible for encoding your physical attributes, which would be reflected by changes to your body. It's not a magical boost, it's a physical change giving your more strength/speed/sense/warmth etc.

27 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Fortunately, if these spikes are in fact possible, they'd be ridiculously expensive, assuming that they are made with god metal alloys.

I propose that those attributes are all stealable by base 16 metals. We know they can have other functions - Kandra ReLuur have Blessings made out of pewter, which steals Feruchemical powers (he doesn't have them, Kandra still don't know how to get Metallic Arts powers, or even how to create Blessings), so there are other uses of those spikes outside of what the Hemalurgic table is showing. 

30 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Hemalurgists on the other hand, need a good size chunk to make a spike (though this is up for debate--we haven't heard much about spike size, but I would assume that if it's too small it won't hold as much of the attribute you're trying to steal, and some will go to waste), and they need a new spike for every instance of the attribute they want to steal.

Not that big - a small earring is enough to hold a sizable Hemalurgic charge. The increase of capacity of an metalmind/spike isn't proportional to its size, there are certain thresholds.

Spoiler

Questioner

I was wondering if the size of a piece of metal determines the amount of Feruchemical charge that can be stored in it.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

So how does that scale, like, in terms of the volume or mass of the metal or...

Brandon Sanderson

It-- So I've talked about this before, I'm trying to remember exactly what I've told people-- It does not scale as logically as you think it does. How about that? It's more like certain thresholds. You can have a-- You can store a Hemalurgic or Feruchemical charge even in very small pieces of metal, but larger pieces of metal will let you get more.

Questioner

So it's kind of like there are different classes of sizes?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, kind of like that.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

 

34 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

I've never seen anyone talking about this before, and it seems like a pretty huge thing to me, so I've been a little cautious accepting it as true.

Knowing @Trusk'our he probably already made like 10 different theories about it  

[Steel Speedster ♂]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

I disagree. When you steal strength it doesn't run out. You don't steal physical attributes, you're stealing a part of the spirit web encoding that attribute into your body and then hotwire it into your spirit web - you're changing your spirit web, which tells your body how it looks/behaves. That's why it's permanent. Stealing speed, warmth, wakefulness etc would change the part of your spirit web, which tells your body how much heat it generates, how much energy it uses, how fast it is etc. It will stay like this until you remove that spike. 

The difference between warmth, for example, and strength is that a person's strength is essentially constant (it can change based on exercise or lack thereof) but warmth is dependent on the environment. I can see how it could be permanent, but it seems like it would be really odd if it makes you constantly warmer than you should be. It breaks the laws of thermodynamics. That's not to say it's impossible, but it would be really weird.

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The average lung capacity is around 6 liters. By stealing breath I'm guessing you will increase your lung capacity instead of stealing useless air. That's a sizable change. What Hemalurgy does doesn't have to be the same as Feruchemy, it has to be similar (copper spike steals intelligence, but there is no Feruchemical intelligence attribute). 

If stealing breath is a permanent effect, then it would be pretty decent. You could survive with half as much air as usual. Copper also steals memories, which is a Feruchemical attribute.

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It might increase your metabolism, making it far more efficient at providing nutrients (like Koloss are able to eat ash to survive).

However, I must point out that I believe that stealing any physical attribute will lead to serious physical deformation to facilitate that increase. Some changes might be not so visible, others might totally change your body. This is because you're modifying your spirit web parts responsible for encoding your physical attributes, which would be reflected by changes to your body. It's not a magical boost, it's a physical change giving your more strength/speed/sense/warmth etc.

Yeah, extra nutrition would not be worth it at all!

[alder24]

38 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

The difference between warmth, for example, and strength is that a person's strength is essentially constant (it can change based on exercise or lack thereof) but warmth is dependent on the environment.

It's not. Your body produces heat via metabolism. The environmental temperature only affects how well the heat is conducted out your body, but doesn't affect how much heat your body generates. Your body temperature is more or less constant, unlike strength which is easily changeable.

38 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

but it seems like it would be really odd if it makes you constantly warmer than you should be. It breaks the laws of thermodynamics.

What doesn't break thermodynamics in Cosmere?  

By increasing the speed of your metabolism, you permanently increase the heat generated by your body - that would mean you need more calories to keep up with this metabolism - thermodynamics  aren't broken. This is just one solution, others exist which can be more magical than this (if Koloss can live on ash alone, then increased heat generation in your body can be done too).  

38 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Copper also steals memories, which is a Feruchemical attribute.

But there is no mental or emotional fortitude, or destiny in Feruchemy. It was just an example to show it doesn't have to be one-to-one.

38 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Yeah, extra nutrition would not be worth it at all!

Not worth at all? Disagree. You can eat less and still get the same amount of calories from it. It's really helpful in survival scenarios. Or you can eat the same and have more energy to use, which is good for extreme physical labor. It's handy in certain situations, but not all the time. 

Edited August 13, 2024 by alder24

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

20 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Copper also steals memories, which is a Feruchemical attribute.

Ehh, more like it steals memorization. The Copper Blessings don't give the Kandra like TenSoon any other memories from the donors.

Don't worry I was under that misconception too.

Edit

Dang it I got alder'd.

Edited August 13, 2024 by JustQuestin2004

[Steel Speedster ♂]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Not worth at all? Disagree. You can eat less and still get the same amount of calories from it. It's really helpful in survival scenarios. Or you can eat the same and have more energy to use, which is good for extreme physical labor. It's handy in certain situations, but not all the time. 

But is that worth the soul warping that attribute spikes give you?

2 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Ehh, more like it steals memorization. The Copper Blessings don't give the Kandra like TenSoon any other memories from the donors.

That's because copper can be used to steal memories, intelligence, or mental fortitude--it doesn't have to be all three, and in the case of the Kandra, I'm pretty sure it's just mental fortitude.

[alder24]

15 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Dang it I got alder'd.

That's new 

12 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

But is that worth the soul warping that attribute spikes give you?

In my opinion no. I am always very wary of Hemalurgic spikes of any kind because of this soul-warping and damaging part of Hemalurgy. But if you're starving, with little to none food to eat, it's better than death. 

 

Edit:

12 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

That's because copper can be used to steal memories, intelligence, or mental fortitude--it doesn't have to be all three, and in the case of the Kandra, I'm pretty sure it's just mental fortitude.

Far more than that, Coppermind:

Quote

Blessing of Presence

A pair of copper spikes that grant increased mental capability. This capability includes the ability to focus despite physical discomfort or distraction, exceptionally sharp memory, resistance to madness, and the inability to lapse into unconsciousness due to shock. This Blessing also counters at least some of the mental weakness that is caused by Hemalurgy; kandra with this Blessing are much less vulnerable to being controlled by Ruin than others.

 

Edited August 13, 2024 by alder24

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

28 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That's new 

It's a trend, you're way too quick. 

Anyway, I wonder what some of these new types of Feruchemical-ish Hemalurgic Constructs would look like. I have a few ideas.

1: Accelers - 4 Spikes that grant enhanced speed, their body becomes thinner and taller, their skin becomes an angry shade of red due to increased blood flow, they move quickly enough that they appear almost like a blur, with heightened reflexes making them difficult to hit. Their stamina isn't as great as a Koloss so they cannot keep up their speed for prolonged periods of time.

2: Boilers - 4 Spikes that grant far greater body temperature, they are painful to touch with their average body temperature being over 150 degrees, they are usually steaming and require a much greater amount of food and water than normal. Resistant to their own high temperatures but not fully immune, requiring they occasionally cool themselves or suffer from heat stroke.

3: Puffers - 4 Spikes that steal Breath, their torsos are expanded due to massively oversized lungs, they can breathe in a very large amount of air and scream loudly enough to cause a sharp pain in the ears to anyone too close. Their blood is hyperoxygenated, which provides them with greater stamina than even a Koloss, though no real strength increase.

And that's all I've got for now.

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Knowing @Trusk'our he probably already made like 10 different theories about it  

 

Honestly, at this point I probably have. It's hard to keep track of the 200+ Hemalurgy theories I've posted 

1 hour ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

We know that H-iron steals strength, H-tin steals senses, H-zinc steals memories, H-duralumin steals Connectioni and Identity, and F-nicrosil's power is covered by H-steel, H-pewter, H-brass, H-bronze, H-cadmium, H-bendalloy, H-gold, and H-electrum, but that's only six out of sixteen attributes that can be stored Feruchemically. Are there really god metal alloys for each of the other Feruchemical attributes? Weight? Speed? Mental speed? Warmth? Wakefulness? Fortune? Breath? Nutrition? Health? Determination? Some of these seem like really overpowered abilities. Stealing physical speed would make someone essentially twice as fast as normal all the time. Stealing mental speed would make someone think twice as fast all the time. Then there are some that would be really weird. If you stole warmth, all the heat would probably flow out of you again in a matter of minutes. If you stole wakefulness, it would probably give you an extra day's worth of wakefulness (assuming the donor had just woken up) and then have no effect for the rest of your life. The amount of breath that a normal person has at one time is so small that it would do essentially nothing if you stole it. Stealing nutrition would basically transfer all of the nutrition that the donor had to the recipient, and it would then run out fairly quickly. I'm not sure about determination. Determination does fluctuate in a person, but it doesn't just run out like other attributes do. Stealing determination might actually add the donor's current level of determination to the recipient permanently.

My thinking for this WoB is that, yes, you can technically target all areas that Feruchemy does with Hemalurgy, but that doesn't mean it will yield a 1 to 1 result; memories are specifically off the menu for Hemalurgy as they're a part of the Cognitive Aspect, unlike memorization and intelligence, which are a spiritual attribute that affects the Cognitive Aspect. 

Warbreaker spoilers: 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/66-firefight-atlanta-signing/#e3165

ccstat

Vasher uses Awakening in a very interesting way, off-stage, to modify the memories of the girl he rescues. Can Hemalurgy do the same thing if used carefully?

Brandon Sanderson

*long pause* No, I don't really think that it can. Nobody has asked that before, but just looking at the way the magics work, I don't think that is something that Hemalurgy is capable of doing.

Furthermore, breath, energy, fluids, and warmth are more physical Realm things, and while Feruchemy can store them, they're less of a Spiritual component and more of a physical component that can be targeted. This is especially visible when you see that tapping and storing them leads to permanent changes (copper too, but that's Cognitive instead),  at least until tapped; you don't spend an hour storing calories to suddenly feel less hungry after you stop storing, but like memories you must tap the Bendalloymind to retrieve the effects. Were you to never tap them, you'd never get those calories back and you'd need to eat more from another source to replenish the attribute. 

As @alder24 proposed, I think these attributes will end up being targetable in the same way memory is; you may not be able to take actual breath, memories, or calories, but you can affect how your body uses them and to what level of efficiency. Which, I would add, may include a magical boost as a side effect (think Blessing of Potency with the Kandra; no extra muscle there, but more strength regardless).

Quote

more deformation in the recipient than Hemalurgic spikes that transfer abilities, so that somewhat inhibits the usefulness of these spikes. But Koloss, even if it isn't exactly desirable to be one are very dangerous and are made with four H-iron (strength) spikes. Imagine a creature with four speed spikes! Or four mental speed spikes! It would be equivalent to a Feruchemist tapping the attribute at a 400% rate, at all times!

Actually, this is kinda already done by Koloss and Kandra with the Blessing of Potency; Sazed has commented in WoA and HoA that these two types of entities are "inhumanly quick", and as he has a Thug and two Mistborn as friends, and has personally made use of Steelrunning, I'm inclined to take his word for it.

Now, Hemalurgic iron gets speed as more of a side effect of other physical attributes, but targeting it specifically would probably yield greater results. 

[Through the Living Heir he/him]

I had a whole theory that multiple spikes of one attribute cause an increase of several that couldn’t normally be stored. I’m too lazy to find it, but I believe I concluded that koloss get extra strength, speed, nutrition, and determination, in exchange for slightly weakened emotional stability, senses, and intelligence. I then proceeded to extrapolate to other koloss-like constructs. 
Here’s the post: 

 

Edited August 13, 2024 by Dragonheir
Found thread