Splitting Radiant spren: let's make a gazillion!

[JStonehaus]

In RAW, The mechanics of splitting a spren into two different gemstones and then shattering them to make two identical spren is explained. Since that creates two identical spren, why can't we simply do the same thing with Radiant spren? Can't we put them in gemstone, split the gemstone, break the gemstone, and end up with more Radiant knights?

[BinarySecond]

I would be very interested to see how they would behave when split - Can they still hold a conversation? How would it impact a Nahel bond if they had one?

[Quantus he/him]

Setting aside the moral reservations that the Sibling expressed, the spren that are trapped and forcibly split have all been the non-sapient spren.  WOB says that Sapience is directly tied to and tends to scale by Investiture. So if you split a Radiant Spren without supplementing it with more raw Investiture you are likely to have a stunted spren or even a non-sapient Lesser Spren.  So you might start with an Honorspren and get to Windspren; or at best you might get a Baby Honorspren, that still needs time to reach maturity.  

It would probably be a lot safer to just ask the Stormfather and/or Cultivation to make more with the "Normal" process at their disposal.  

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 minutes ago, Quantus said:

It would probably be a lot safer to just ask the Stormfather and/or Cultivation to make more with the "Normal" process at their disposal.  

Now that would be quite the conversation.

3 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Setting aside the moral reservations that the Sibling expressed, the spren that are trapped and forcibly split have all been the non-sapient spren.  WOB says that Sapience is directly tied to and tends to scale by Investiture. So if you split a Radiant Spren without supplementing it with more raw Investiture you are likely to have a stunted spren or even a non-sapient Lesser Spren.  So you might start with an Honorspren and get to Windspren; or at best you might get a Baby Honorspren, that still needs time to reach maturity.  

Agreed.

Though, maybe if you had enough Stormlight available, the process could be achieved. Wonder if the old Spren's personality would be preserved in one half and the other became a new Spren, or if both became new Spren. Or, if both became the old Spren with the same memories and personality. . .

That would be weird. 

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

11 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Though, maybe if you had enough Stormlight available, the process could be achieved. Wonder if the old Spren's personality would be preserved in one half and the other became a new Spren, or if both became new Spren. Or, if both became the old Spren with the same memories and personality. . .

The idea of a spren sort of splitting off by mitosis and investiture is how I've assumed that spren reproduced, in my head, which is at least similar to the process described here (though, unless the consent of the sapient spren, it's deeply problematic). Those spren that talk about their father or mother don't seem to be copies of them. I'm thinking specifically of Ico, and though we don't know what his father's personality is, at the moment, if his daughter is Timbre, she is very much unlike her father. Even if his daughter isn't Timbre, whoever she is, she's definitely chosen an entirely different path from her father. I do think that however they're created, brand new sapient spren would probably not be capable (at least safely) of forming a Nahel bond? It feels very child-soldiery to me? Maybe I'm wrong on that one, but Syl does talk about being very "young" when she bonded her first knight, and how badly that effected her.

Either way, it's a fascinating topic to think over. 

[Quantus he/him]

Just now, JohnnyKaizen said:

The idea of a spren sort of splitting off by mitosis and investiture is how I've assumed that spren reproduced, in my head, which is at least similar to the process described here (though, unless the consent of the sapient spren, it's deeply problematic). Those spren that talk about their father or mother don't seem to be copies of them. I'm thinking specifically of Ico, and though we don't know what his father's personality is, at the moment, if his daughter is Timbre, she is very much unlike her father. Even if his daughter isn't Timbre, whoever she is, she's definitely chosen an entirely different path from her father. I do think that however they're created, brand new sapient spren would probably not be capable (at least safely) of forming a Nahel bond? It feels very child-soldiery to me? Maybe I'm wrong on that one, but Syl does talk about being very "young" when she bonded her first knight, and how badly that effected her.

Either way, it's a fascinating topic to think over. 

Yeah, the current story is that she was still too young for the Bond when she first tried it, and that is why loosing her Radiant hit her so hard.  And the whole Testament Bonding a child is likely to reenforce the danger of a child on either side of the Bond.  For the safety of both I suspect both Spren and Humans to severely discourage Child-Bonding.

[JStonehaus]

35 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Now that would be quite the conversation.

Agreed.

Though, maybe if you had enough Stormlight available, the process could be achieved. Wonder if the old Spren's personality would be preserved in one half and the other became a new Spren, or if both became new Spren. Or, if both became the old Spren with the same memories and personality. . .

That would be weird. 

There's one way to find out!

We don't even have to sully our hands with it. We can ask "the only sane Herald" to commit his scientific crimes to find out. And we can pump them full of Stormlight to bring them up to speed! It's a Clone Wars situation at that point. And, uh, those ended so well...

Edited July 31, 2024 by JStonehaus

[alder24]

2 hours ago, JStonehaus said:

In RAW, The mechanics of splitting a spren into two different gemstones and then shattering them to make two identical spren is explained. Since that creates two identical spren, why can't we simply do the same thing with Radiant spren? Can't we put them in gemstone, split the gemstone, break the gemstone, and end up with more Radiant knights?

Radiant spren are fully sapient and ripping them into two halves would be worse than a torture. They might feel excruciating pain throughout this entire process, it might even deadeye them permanently. And that's what I think would happen. You would just kill them, even if you were to provide them with a lot of Stormlight, this process seems too invasive and brutal to result in two, totally alive, sane and willing to bond spren. No spren would want to bond you and your friends if you were to brutally split them to create more of them.

Edit: Cutting a spren with a Shardblade is painful and that doesn't kill, ripping spren into two halves would be even worse. 

Spoiler

ladrac1

What, if anything, would happen if you swing a Shardblade through a seon?

Brandon Sanderson

So, seon would not like being- a Shardblade swung through them, how about that. A seon would not enjoy that. Spren don't enjoy it either. That isn't necessarily going to kill either of them, but they're not going to like it.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

Edited July 31, 2024 by alder24

[Rorzikel]

I'll note that we get an epigraph from Navani on just subspren splitting that states there's many issues with using other types:

"Advanced fabrials are created using several different techniques. Conjoined fabrials require a careful division of the gemstone—and the spren inside. If performed correctly, the two halves will continue to behave as a single gemstone.

Note that rubies and flamespren are traditional for this purpose— as they have proven the easiest to divide, and the quickest in response times. Other types of spren do not split as evenly, as easily, or at all."

-Chapter 13

If they are running into problems with other subspren in RoW era conjoiners, I have no doubt that truespren would be a nightmare if it is possible at all.

Edited September 1, 2024 by Rorzikel