Atium and Electrum 360 Vision

Steel Speedster · July 23, 2024

We know that atium even lets you react to attacks from behind, and we have this WoB that states that you could see atiumshadows even if you were blind.

Quote

Herowannabe

I recently picked up the Mistborn Adventure game and am loving it. I made a character who is a blind Mistborn because hey, I thought it would make for some interesting possibilities. As I understand Allomancy, he can hear/sense well enough to get around with Tin, plus even though he's blind he can still "see" steel lines (like the inquisitors), and I assume Atium would work the same way- that is, he could still "see" Atium shadows. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Brandon Sanderson

No, you're right. That works. He'd have to burn metals a LOT though. It might warp him a little.
/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 15, 2013)

So, it seems natural to assume that atium and electrum let you see shadows out the back of your head. However, for atium, there's a serious problem with this.

Atium shows you future shadows for all objects, except yourself and aluminum ones. You don't see shadows for stationary objects, presumably because they are in the exact same position as the real object. But if you can't see the real object (e.g. you're blind, your eyes are closed, or the object is simply behind you) shouldn't you be able to see its shadow? This would mean that an atium burner would have full 360-degree vision.

However, we see no mention of atium burners being able to see anything behind them except for the shadows of their opponents. They don't seem to see the terrain or environment with atium. So why is this?

I have a few possible explanations, but none of them are completely satisfying.

The first is that pieces of terrain are simply too big for atium to work with. This seems the least likely to me, as I wouldn't expect physical size to impact how much work the Investiture has to do to show an atiumshadow. Furthermore, small separate objects that make up the environment should still appear.

The second is that non-moving objects simply don't appear. The problem with this is that even if an object is moving a miniscule amount, it should still appear.

The third is that there are some cognitive shenanigans going on here. Perhaps objects that the atium burner percieves as stationary do not cast atiumshadows. If this is the answer, then that would imply that this could be overcome and that an atium burner probably could train themselves to see the shadows of all objects, including those behind them.

Thoughts? Any other possible explanations.

Koloss17 · July 23, 2024

So it’s worth noting that both steel and ironsight give 360 degree vision, so I would assume that Atium works in a similar way.

I’d also think that while burning Atium, their focus would be on their opponents rather than on the ground. You generally don’t burn Atium for scholarly purposes, and so the focus isn’t on the interesting quirks of the metal.

Treamayne · July 23, 2024

2 hours ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

They don't seem to see the terrain or environment with atium. So why is this?

Because you also do not actually "see" Atium or Electrum Shadows either. Atium and Electrum (and Gold and Malatium) cause a Connection in the Spiritweb (theorized to also be what is really happeneing with Iron and Steel lines). In your normal field of view, the Metalborn's mind interprets this information that is being received as visual input - outside of your field of vision, you are still receiving the information and reacting to it (as seen in Vin's POV and her conversation with Hammond); but without your brain taking the step to visualize a "Shadow."

Please note that the "blind" WoB is about the Mistborn Adventure Game (MAG) which is not entirely canon - so while Brandon has conirmed a blind character would be able to use Atium and react to the information recceived - we don't actually "know" they would "see" shadows. We won't have that piece until Brandon states something specific or gives us a blind POV character. In fact, I would venture to guess that a Metalborn that was blind from birth and had never experienced vision would not get any form of "shadow" and their neural diversity would interpret the Spiritual Realm information based on a a sense they were more familiar with (maybe "shadow echoes of sound"?).

Hope that helps

Edited July 23, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG

alder24 · July 23, 2024

2 hours ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

We know that atium even lets you react to attacks from behind, and we have this WoB that states that you could see atiumshadows even if you were blind.

Quote

Herowannabe

I recently picked up the Mistborn Adventure game and am loving it. I made a character who is a blind Mistborn because hey, I thought it would make for some interesting possibilities. As I understand Allomancy, he can hear/sense well enough to get around with Tin, plus even though he's blind he can still "see" steel lines (like the inquisitors), and I assume Atium would work the same way- that is, he could still "see" Atium shadows. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Brandon Sanderson

No, you're right. That works. He'd have to burn metals a LOT though. It might warp him a little.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 15, 2013)

Expand

So, it seems natural to assume that atium and electrum let you see shadows out the back of your head. However, for atium, there's a serious problem with this.

Atium shows you future shadows for all objects, except yourself and aluminum ones. You don't see shadows for stationary objects, presumably because they are in the exact same position as the real object. But if you can't see the real object (e.g. you're blind, your eyes are closed, or the object is simply behind you) shouldn't you be able to see its shadow? This would mean that an atium burner would have full 360-degree vision.

However, we see no mention of atium burners being able to see anything behind them except for the shadows of their opponents. They don't seem to see the terrain or environment with atium. So why is this?

Atium shadows are glimpses into the Spiritual Realm via Fortune. But Atium has something that electrum doesn't - mental enhancement. Atium enhances your mind so it can process Atium can process those glimpses from the Spiritual Realm. That's why Atium allows you to react to shadows outside of your field of view (confirmed in books), it's because your eyes doesn't have to look at shadows for you to comprehend them, there is something more Cognitive and Spiritual going on here (but keep in mind, the WoB you quoted said you have to be a Savant to fully comprehend Atium "shadows" without eyes). Electrum has nothing like this, electrum just allows you to see shadows and you have to physically see them and react to them in real time to make them useful - which is hard when you're seeing dozens of electrum shadows at once, but not impossible with enough practice. But that’s nowhere near Atium.

And why don't you see Shadows of ground and stationary objects? Well, you've answered it yourself - they aren't moving. Shadows might be there, inside them but invisible to your eyes (not to your mind). Or maybe it's because of the Intent of the person who burns Atium specify what to see. Or maybe it doesn't include ground, buildings and stuff like that, too strongly connected to the planet or for some other reason. Or maybe they just need to move to produce a shadow at all. No idea, but all those explanations can justify why this is happening. It doesn't change anything.

Edited July 23, 2024 by alder24

Steel Speedster · July 24, 2024

Thanks for the answers, everyone! That definitely helps!

22 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Because you also do not actually "see" Atium or Electrum Shadows either. Atium and Electrum (and Gold and Malatium) cause a Connection in the Spiritweb (theorized to also be what is really happeneing with Iron and Steel lines). In your normal field of view, the Metalborn's mind interprets this information that is being received as visual input - outside of your field of vision, you are still receiving the information and reacting to it (as seen in Vin's POV and her conversation with Hammond); but without your brain taking the step to visualize a "Shadow."

That makes sense. So, would that mean that atium does give you awareness of your surroundings (probably subconsciously)?

22 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Please note that the "blind" WoB is about the Mistborn Adventure Game (MAG) which is not entirely canon - so while Brandon has conirmed a blind character would be able to use Atium and react to the information recceived - we don't actually "know" they would "see" shadows. We won't have that piece until Brandon states something specific or gives us a blind POV character. In fact, I would venture to guess that a Metalborn that was blind from birth and had never experienced vision would not get any form of "shadow" and their neural diversity would interpret the Spiritual Realm information based on a a sense they were more familiar with (maybe "shadow echoes of sound"?).

Does atium even work on non-visual information? We know it can't predict emotional Allomancy, but can it predict a sound-based attack?

21 hours ago, alder24 said:

Atium shadows are glimpses into the Spiritual Realm via Fortune. But Atium has something that electrum doesn't - mental enhancement. Atium enhances your mind so it can process Atium can process those glimpses from the Spiritual Realm. That's why Atium allows you to react to shadows outside of your field of view (confirmed in books), it's because your eyes doesn't have to look at shadows for you to comprehend them, there is something more Cognitive and Spiritual going on here (but keep in mind, the WoB you quoted said you have to be a Savant to fully comprehend Atium "shadows" without eyes).

The way I understood that WoB was that Brandon meant that the Mistborn in question would have to burn a lot of metal (tin, steel/iron, and atium) a lot in order to make up for lack of sight, and that he might become a Savant in the process, not that he would have to become a Savant first.

21 hours ago, alder24 said:

Electrum has nothing like this, electrum just allows you to see shadows and you have to physically see them and react to them in real time to make them useful - which is hard when you're seeing dozens of electrum shadows at once, but not impossible with enough practice. But that’s nowhere near Atium.

So, you couldn't "see" shadows behind you at all? I imagined that it might be sort of like seeing something out of the corner of your eye--you can't really see it unless you focus on it, but it's there. But I could see it going either way--we barely know anything about electrum.

alder24 · July 24, 2024

1 hour ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

That makes sense. So, would that mean that atium does give you awareness of your surroundings (probably subconsciously)?

Yes.

1 hour ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Does atium even work on non-visual information? We know it can't predict emotional Allomancy, but can it predict a sound-based attack?

Sound not really, unless by the effects it will have on other things and people, which would be shown by shadows. But while burning Atium for the first time, Vin saw Kelsier's shadow moving his lips indicating he will start speaking, but she heard or sensed nothing.

However, Atium can help you with Hemalurgy - it will help you with placement of your spikes in points corresponding to your intent. This means it might be possible for someone who knows almost nothing about Hemalurgy and is unfamiliar with binding points, to burn enough Atium so they can spike precisely where they need to, to steal what they want. That's non-visual information. And the fact that it disturbs the future sight of others (not just Atium users, but Shards as well) is a big advantage - it makes you unpredictable to some degree. In the most extreme applications, like burning pure Atium or burning Atium with duralumin, it will allow you to "see" a wide range of possible futures and gain full understanding of what's happening - like Elend did at the end of HoA. Is that a visual thing? I don't know, at that moment Elend was pulled into the SR directly, so that's a very different experience compared to just burning Atium.

Spoiler

PhantoMonstrosity

Atium is the best metal to use for Hemalurgy. Does *burning* atium help you figure out where to put the spikes?

Brandon Sanderson

Anything that gets you a glimpse of the Spiritual Realm could help with placing spikes.

PhantoMonstrosity

Would flaring iron and steel also help?

Brandon Sanderson

No, not without additional help.

#NookTalks Twitter Q&A with Barnes & Noble (Feb. 16, 2016)

Spoiler

Sylos

I was happy when Elend finally burned duralumin with atium. I was holding my breath hoping that someone would eventually do it. However we didn't really get any info as to what Elend experienced. Does a duralumin-enhanced atium burn allow a person to see significantly farther into the future? If so, being that Elend's army was dying all around him did he get to see into the afterlife? Also if you could tell us what he saw that would be awesome. Did something he saw make him not want to avoid Marshes strike?

On a similar note if someone burned electrum with duralumin would they get to see significantly into their own future?

Brandon Sanderson

There is much here that I can't say, but I'll give as much as I can. Elend saw Preservation's ultimate plan, and Elend's own part in it. What he saw made him realize he didn't want to kill Marsh, and that his own death would actually help save the world. Like a master chess player, he suddenly saw and understand every possible move his enemy could make. He saw that Ruin was check-mated, because there was one thing that Ruin was not willing to do. Something that both Elend and Vin could do, if needed. And it's what they did.

No.

Footnote: We now know that the "one notable exception" Brandon refers to at the end is the Dor, which is mostly contained in the Cognitive Realm.
Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

1 hour ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

The way I understood that WoB was that Brandon meant that the Mistborn in question would have to burn a lot of metal (tin, steel/iron, and atium) a lot in order to make up for lack of sight, and that he might become a Savant in the process, not that he would have to become a Savant first.

I interpret it that he needs to first burn through a lot of Atium so it would warp his soul (Savantism) and then he would be able to have a practical use of Atium even if blind - below that he would struggle with sensing Atium, but he still should sense something. Tin should be handy for a blind person even without Savanthood, but with Savanthood he would be like Spook and be able to smell, echolocate and feel the movement of air precisely enough to completely ignore his blindness.

As for steel or iron, Savantism isn't needed. Any Allomancer of those metals can learn to see like a Steel Inquisitor does, they just need to learn how to do this.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

By the way, you probably remember form book one the way that Inquisitors see. They have such a subtle touch with Steel and Iron, and their lines, that they can see via the trace metals in everyone's bodies and in the objects around them.

The thing is, any Allomancer with access to iron or steel could learn to do this. Some have figured it out, in the past, but in current times, nobody–at least, nobody the heroes know–is aware of this. Except, of course, for Marsh.

And he chose not to share it.

The Well of Ascension Annotations (Nov. 11, 2007)

1 hour ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

So, you couldn't "see" shadows behind you at all? I imagined that it might be sort of like seeing something out of the corner of your eye--you can't really see it unless you focus on it, but it's there. But I could see it going either way--we barely know anything about electrum.

Can you see behind you back? No. So you can't physically see Atium shadows that are behind you with your eyes, but because of your increased reach into the SR, you can sense them and react to them thanks to your mental enhancement.

There is another attribute that matters here other than sight, it's Fortune. Fortune is a way of knowing things you can't know otherwise, it's a kind of gut feeling that tells you what to do, it's a way of accessing the Spiritual Realm. Burning Atium increases your Fortune and allows you to access SR so you know what's coming even without seeing it.

Spoiler

Questioner

So, in Allomancy, most of the metals are in pairs, they're equal and opposite, pushing and pulling, Rioting, Soothing, that kind of thing. The god metals have always-- lerasium and atium, have always struck me as kind of unbalanced in a way. Like, lerasium gives you the power to use all these metals, plus atium being one of them. Is there a reason for that?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there is, and it kinda has to do with Snapping and some of the fundamental rules of the Mistborn world and the fact that people have Preservation and Ruin inside of them and all these sorts of things. So, the answer is yes.

Partially, narratively, I built that in partially just 'cause I wanted atium to seem odd in the placement, right, when people got to it it's like "What? Why is this one-- This one doesn't match the others. This doesn't really work." When I was building Mistborn, one of the big things I wanted was this idea of a periodic table that was, kind of a flawed construct, that, as you read the books, you came to understand better and better. And that was something I executed-- I don't think I executed that 100% right, but I'm pleased with the general concept and how it plays out. And so I wanted atium to stick out like a sore thumb.

The other thing is, I knew I needed some good foreshadowing for Fortune, for people being able to kinda see the future or versions of the future, for the whole cosmere to work. And, so, I built in atium specifically to do those things. And I built in lerasium to have, kind of, the ultimate sort of benevolent endowment sort of thing. (Not Endowment the Shard, you know what I mean.) But I also wanted to show these two magics were intrinsically tied together on Scadrial because the way that humankind was created. We're getting into some deep stuff, I'll just leave it there. But that was what was going through my mind as I was building those things all out.

Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

What would a Hemalurgic spike granting atium do for an Allomancer already able to burn atium? Does it function similarly to bronze, granting enhanced atium-ing? Along this line of thought, would enhancing electrum burning via spike be of any advantage?

Brandon Sanderson

A spike of something you have would enhance your ability, giving your more strength. With atium, more strength makes for a minimal edge--the length you can push out the atium shadows. However, there's a certain breaking point where you kind of crack the whole system, peer straight into the [Spiritual Realm], and kind of have a "It's full of stars" moment.

Electrum could reach this same moment, potentially, though there's more interference to fight through. Extra strength in electrum isn't going to be terribly useful up to that point.

Alsadius

Is that what happened when atium was burned with duralumin?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Footnote: In his original response Brandon mistakenly said burning atium and duralumin would cause the Allomancer to peer into the Cognitive Realm, rather than Spiritual Realm. He has since confirmed that this was a mistake.
/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 1, 2015)

Edited July 24, 2024 by alder24

Dofurion · July 25, 2024

When I read the title I interpreted it as something more metaphorical, I thought it was a question about what would happen if someone burned Electrum and Atium at the same time and obtained a "360° vision" on a temporal level.
More or less seeing your shadows and those of your rival at the same time.

Steel Speedster · July 25, 2024

9 hours ago, Dofurion said:

When I read the title I interpreted it as something more metaphorical, I thought it was a question about what would happen if someone burned Electrum and Atium at the same time and obtained a "360° vision" on a temporal level.
More or less seeing your shadows and those of your rival at the same time.

That would be pretty cool. One interesting effect of doing that is it should let you identify which electrumshadow was the "original" that the others split off of, because that would be the only one that your opponent's atiumshadow could interact with

Atium and Electrum 360 Vision

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