Second Trilogy thoughts

[prehistoricman]

So I poked my head in the FantasyFaction thread and found this post by Brandon:

I'm really intrigued by both of those premises. Where do you keep getting all these ideas from? I really admire your ingenuity.

Also, and I'm not sure if you can/will answer this, but will we see another book with Waxillium Ladrian? His story doesn't appear to end with The Alloy of Law. And will his story be directly related to the next Mistborn trilogy? This has been eating away at me since finishing that book.

Wax's story was indeed directly related to the second trilogy, but I was intrigued enough with his time period that I find myself wanting to do more with him. I probably will.

http://fantasy-faction.com/forum/advertising-your-novels/advertising-some-of-my-smaller-projects/msg31793/?PHPSESSID=5f922d771df3aa3ee5e33e008391e5eb#msg31793

So we all know that mistborn have become exceedingly rare to the point of being no more than legend, Edwarn Ladrian was trying to create a mistborn breeding program and that there will be a mistborn serial killer in the second trilogy. It sounds to me like Wax fails and the breeding program goes on, creating the serial killer. Going even further, it may be that the serial killer is in fact getting revenge on the people running the program.

Of course, this is all wild speculation and I won't be shocked if I totally missed the mark.

[Arcanist Lupus]

So I poked my head in the FantasyFaction thread and found this post by Brandon:

http://fantasy-faction.com/forum/advertising-your-novels/advertising-some-of-my-smaller-projects/msg31793/?PHPSESSID=5f922d771df3aa3ee5e33e008391e5eb#msg31793

So we all know that mistborn have become exceedingly rare to the point of being no more than legend, Edwarn Ladrian was trying to create a mistborn breeding program and that there will be a mistborn serial killer in the second trilogy. It sounds to me like Wax fails and the breeding program goes on, creating the serial killer. Going even further, it may be that the serial killer is in fact getting revenge on the people running the program.

Of course, this is all wild speculation and I won't be shocked if I totally missed the mark.

I'd like to clarify that we don't know for certain that they are working towards a Mistborn breeding program. It seems likely, but it hasn't been confirmed yet.

Other than that, this sums up what we've seen so far pretty well.

[Odium's_Shard]

Yes. Sir-Read-a-Lot is right, Marasi suggested it, and feels that she found the link, but she might be wrong, and when it was presented to Edwarn by Wax, he seemed unfazed. This might suggest that either he isn't concerned by Wax's knowledge or involvement, or he knows that Wax hasn't quite figured out the entire mystery. If there was no twist in another Wax Ladrian book that throws this idea out of the water, then it would be a major disappointment that it had been figured out in the first book.

Fantasy authors don't like that. It stops them writing the twenty-three other books in the series they had planned out.

[Telcontar]

The first thing I thought of, when I read about the stealing of those woman was that those evil mysterious persons would spike them. So not a breeding program, but getting allomancers to make themselves like Inquisitors. That's way easier than raise all that children and breeding would just take so long. Better to get the children, make them snap, steal their powers. Easier.

And Hemalurgy would get more attention. Which seems to me to be something Brandon wants to do.

[prehistoricman]

Oops I guess you're right about the breeding program thing.

Although spiking seems like a possibility, I'm inclined to think that Marasi is right. The concept of eugenics was developed around the same time period as this book is set in and Marasi's thoughts about what Edwarn is doing seems to be exactly in line with some of the practices that eugenics promoted.

[Odium's_Shard]

I was sure eugenics also included the sterilisation of 'weaker' races? That doesn't seem to be something they want to achieve, nor do they wish to raise Allomancy levels in the general public. It seems more likely that they just want to create a dictator of a power that was unprecedented.

I agree that they should just steal the powers of the women, or if they have none, take those of the child. But then I also suggested one of these children be selected for a particularly useful combination (double nicrosil, gold, etc.) and then spiked with every other power (maybe even Feruchemy). This would mean they have all powers, but their original Allomantic and Feruchemical powers would be intensely augmented.

However, I'm sure Harmony, if he didn't want this (which it is suggested he doesn't, seeing as how he backed Wax), could use Ruin's link to Hemalurgic constructs to make this new demonic overlord kill himself in his sleep, so they'd have to be careful about spiking him.

[Thought]

To note, there doesn't seem to be any particular feruchemical link. They might be breeding mistborn, but they aren't breeding feruchemists (that we have hints of, at least).

Though... I am slightly worried about Harmony's role in all this. Miles was spiked, so he could hear Sazed (probably), the heists all happen during the mists... if Ati was still holding on to his shard, I'd totally think he was behind some of this.

[Odium's_Shard]

Maybe Sazed is. After all, his Intent would now be warped to cause him to err on the side of 'balance' as opposed to choosing sides, perhaps meaning that he is helping Wax, while also helping Miles, to provide balance, giving more help to Wax to compensate for Miles' strength as a Feruchemist? Maybe Harmony is just preparing Wax for what lies ahead, and so made Miles more of a challenge, but when it seemed like Wax wouldn't make it, he evened the odds slightly so that he barely survived.

The entire Feruchemy discussion is separate from the Mistborn breeding program, we feel that the serial killer will most likely be the result of this breeding program, if Marasi is right, whereas our speculation are less likely and involve simple Hemalurgy. Providing they are already kidnapping Allomancers and all is going well, why stop with just Mistborn?

[Triasmus]

Woah Woah Woah!! Miles might have had gold spikes in him so that they wouldn't get thrown away from him, but that doesn't mean he was hemalurgically spiked, unless I missed something (like a BS quote).

[Odium's_Shard]

We are still unsure whether or not it matters whether a spike is charged or not for them to be accessible to Ruin/Harmony. There has been speculation as to whether or not Wax's earring is charged, meaning that he can speak to Harmony (after all, not every Pathist's earring can be Hemalurgically charged, and we presume Harmony might be able to hear them all, otherwise they wouldn't follow the religion [he might just give them a sense of encouragement, not talk to them directly]), but we won't know until BS confirms it, denies it, the Kandra who gave it to him is revealed or Wax shows some weird power (do we know what metal the earring is so that we can watch out for it?).

Also, if it was charged, it is highly unlikely that Wax has found the exact Hemalurgical precision point to give him any power from the ring (ie, depending on the metal or the ring, the place it was taken from the victim, and his ear lobe), meaning that ANY piercing with a Hemalurgic ring, whether it gives power or not, can link you to Ruin.

Lastly, there has been speculation that the reason that Allomancy is so poor at affecting metals that pierce the body, or touch the blood, is because it causes Preservation's power (Allomancy) to work directly against that of Ruin's (Hemalurgy, even minor, uncharged), causing the powers to cancel out if they are of the same strength, meaning the Allomancer can only prevail if they bring more power (flare, Duralumin). We assume the same works for using Emotional Allomancy to control constructs, you have to break Ruin's hold on the construct to use your Allomancy to control them, which is why Vin has to use Duralumin (Elend is a more powerful Allomancer anyway).

[Dahak]

We are still unsure whether or not it matters whether a spike is charged or not for them to be accessible to Ruin/Harmony.

Spikes need to be charged and in a bind point to be accessable to Ruin. That's the whole point in spiking Spook and trying to spike Elend. Marsh thinsk about it while charging the spike he's going to put into the Lord left in charge in the capital.

Pathist spikes were made from the spikes from the dead inquisitors.

[Aethling]

Well, neither Spook nor Elend wore earrings that I can remember so he pretty much had to spike them the other way if he wanted any influence.

If I remember the conversation a few months back, the essential question was where would they have gotten thousands of charged earrings. I would be very surprised if Harmony just left the bodies lying around after going to so much trouble to reshape the world.

[Cheese Ninja]

It wouldn't take very many Inquisitor spikes to make thousands of tiny metal stud earrings. (Probably between .5 and 1.5 grams each earring.)

The "Mistborn breeding program" sets things up rather nicely for the next trilogy. Odium's_Shard may feel it is too early for everything to be figured out, but I'm sure some twists will be worked into the next Wax and Wayne books.

I'm curious about how the main character's Nicrosil burst is going to be applied. On a Tineye investigator at a murder scene? On a Coinshot in a firefight? On enemies unprepared for the burst? And of course, I really want to see what happens from Nicrosil Investiture Compounding, which may not happen at all. I'm also curious about whether the main character is going to be male or female, I don't think I've seen that mentioned yet, the 2nd trilogy might be too far off to have decided a minor point like that.

I'm not sure whether Sazed's need for balance would have required him supporting Miles in some way. It seems to go against his personality from the original trilogy, and that shouldn't have been particularly warped since he has two complementary Shards. I don't actually like any of our available options for who might have given Miles the visions he was talking about.

[Aeshdan]

Wax shows some weird power (do we know what metal the earring is so that we can watch out for it?).

I strongly suspect that the earring grants the ability to burn pewter, because there is a scene in the final battle where Wax gets a mysterious surge of strength, and the description is almost identical to when Vin burns pewter without knowing it.

[Windrunner]

I'm not sure whether Sazed's need for balance would have required him supporting Miles in some way. It seems to go against his personality from the original trilogy, and that shouldn't have been particularly warped since he has two complementary Shards. I don't actually like any of our available options for who might have given Miles the visions he was talking about.

While I do agree that Harmony probably wasn't helping Miles in any way, Sazed is already different as a person. The Shards don't influence him toward one of their intents since they are so evenly matched but they are altering him still.

CHAOS

Will Sazed eventually go mad trying to hold two Shard's power at the same time (being pushed to two different Purposes simultaneously for millennia)? Why hasn't anyone else tried this trick before in the Cosmere?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No. Since they're so opposite they work together to create a whole. However, after a LONG time it would change him as a person.

Source

I think you can already see this in the end of AoL when Harmony talks to Wax. He explains that his goal is harmony, and allowing people to make their own choices. He's become an almost passive deity working mostly through his kandra servants but with occasional direct interference. Also if he was supporting both Wax and Miles to make it "even" why would he bother supporting either of them at all if he has to support the other one. If that's the case I think he'd be better off leaving them both alone. I think he's able to side with Wax on this one because their is such an imbalance between his and Miles's powers that Sazed is just leveling the playing field.

I strongly suspect that the earring grants the ability to burn pewter, because there is a scene in the final battle where Wax gets a mysterious surge of strength, and the description is almost identical to when Vin burns pewter without knowing it.

This is what I think too, Harmony is probably powering Wax's pewter Allomancy without him realizing it. An interesting thing to not is that Sazed, also holding Ruin, could probably power Wax's Hemalurgy as well. This could have the effect of allowing him to use more power than would be typical through such a small and weak spike.

[Odium's_Shard]

Hold on here. How could Sazed 'power' Wax's pewter Allomancy any more than he powers all Allomancy anyway? Wax still has to have the pewter (which I am unsure how he would get anyway) in order to funnel Harmony's power into 'pewter Allomancy', and it is the metal (and how much power can be warped at once) that sets the limit to the power of Allomancy, not the Shard.

The only reason Ruin can take hold of Hemalurgic constructs is because they have a hole in the Spiritual defenses, and so any form of power can snap them into servitude, such as Emotional Allomancy. I am still of the opinion that if Preservation hadn't died he could have taken over koloss and Steel Inquisitors as much as Ruin could.

Lastly, Hemalurgy is 'powered' by Ruin but only in the sense that it is his power that 'snips' and 'pastes' the Spiritweb information that facilitates the stealing of powers, but again this is funneled through the metal and the human body of receiver/target, and so it doesn't matter how much power Sazed pushes down, Wax wouldn't notice the difference, in the same way that there is only a certain amount of people you can file into a building at once.

[Thought]

Providing they are already kidnapping Allomancers and all is going well, why stop with just Mistborn?

Three reasons.

First, because mistborn are legendary and flashy, while feruchemists aren't.

Second, because if they actually want a feruchemist, it will probably be because of compounding, but if that is the case, one would hope they realize the dangers of a full twinborn.

Third, because it might not be possible. Sanderson said that Ferrings have come about because of how allomancy interacted genetically with feruchemy. The option seems to be excluded.

Woah Woah Woah!! Miles might have had gold spikes in him so that they wouldn't get thrown away from him, but that doesn't mean he was hemalurgically spiked, unless I missed something (like a BS quote).

True. But in the past, when a crazypants person also has metal piercing their skin, that metal tends to be hemalugically charged. It is an assumption, no doubts there, but one with at least past experience to help support it.

I think you can already see this in the end of AoL when Harmony talks to Wax. He explains that his goal is harmony, and allowing people to make their own choices. ... if he was supporting both Wax and Miles to make it "even" why would he bother supporting either of them at all if he has to support the other one. If that's the case I think he'd be better off leaving them both alone. I think he's able to side with Wax on this one because their is such an imbalance between his and Miles's powers that Sazed is just leveling the playing field.

As you said, Sazed's goal is to allow people to make their own choices. That doesn't necessarily mean always doing good. Miles was making his own choices, after all. Sazed seems to have been successful with him, if that was his goal.

...

Does that make Sazed a survivorist?

[Aeshdan]

Hold on here. How could Sazed 'power' Wax's pewter Allomancy any more than he powers all Allomancy anyway? Wax still has to have the pewter (which I am unsure how he would get anyway) in order to funnel Harmony's power into 'pewter Allomancy', and it is the metal (and how much power can be warped at once) that sets the limit to the power of Allomancy, not the Shard.

Harmony could fuel Wax's pewter allomancy directly, the same way Vin did with Elend. That doesn't need any metals.

[Odium's_Shard]

What did Vin do to Elend? I might need to go back and read that.

Either way, it seems impossible. Sure, she could devote all of Preservation's power as a Shard to fuel just Elend's Allomancy, but that isn't how Shards throw magic systems around them. It's to do with leakage, as opposed to expenditure. Shards don't purposefully or consciously develop magics systems or give the power to humans, instead, the humans are exposing 'loopholes' that the Shard allows. Allomancy uses a coding within the metal and the person (which, granted, was given to that person by the piece of a Shard that Preservation gave them, Lerasium) to suck power from the pool of power, and is then let out by the person as specific magics, caused by the warping of the power through the metal, and this energy then recollects at the Shardpool.

Even if Vin could push the power at Elend, the only way I can see the power being increased is if it isn't the metal that determines the rate of flow, its the power of the metal to increase the leakage of the Shard. So, flaring the metal means you let more power drip through, which destroys the metal faster, whereas the normal rate is determined by homeostasis, the body regulating itself to stop it harming itself. So, theoretically, this explains savantism, as because they constantly defy their body's 'normal' rate, then this would surely warp them in some way. Sure, their body would absorb some residues of the power, but then it becomes almost addictive, with similar withdrawal symptoms.

But, while in theory Sazed could do it, according to his 'logic' and his mindset, he is unlikely too. Balance, decisions, individualism. Not the sort of ideals that inspire picking sides. Besides, this is beneath him in terms of planetary domination. He has other Shards to worry about, not petty squabbling between mere mortals.

True. But in the past, when a crazypants person also has metal piercing their skin, that metal tends to be hemalugically charged. It is an assumption, no doubts there, but one with at least past experience to help support it.

Most nutjobs attempt to be the most dangerous nutjob that they can manage. In the case of gold, and the bindpoint of 'the arm', we aren't sure exactly what power it would grant (determined as one in four by the bindpoint, or no power at all if 'the arm' isn't a correct bindpoint for gold), but it has been theorized over on Mistborn board (who are famous for their scientific approach to this whole Metallic Arts thing) that it steals Temporal Feruchemy. I'm not sure what classifies as 'Temporal' Feruchemy, but I'm assuming that Age is one of them.

But unless Miles is the only person in Elendel that has access to a non-existent metal, I'm assuming he doesn't actively use Atium Feruchemy, even if the goldminds were charged that way. Others I think might stand for Temporal Feruchemy: Wakefulness, Archivist (take memories through time? More mental), Steelrunner (time/speed?). None stand out particularly as a 'quadrant' in Feruchemy...

[Windrunner]

What did Vin do to Elend? I might need to go back and read that.

Either way, it seems impossible. Sure, she could devote all of Preservation's power as a Shard to fuel just Elend's Allomancy, but that isn't how Shards throw magic systems around them. It's to do with leakage, as opposed to expenditure. Shards don't purposefully or consciously develop magics systems or give the power to humans, instead, the humans are exposing 'loopholes' that the Shard allows. Allomancy uses a coding within the metal and the person (which, granted, was given to that person by the piece of a Shard that Preservation gave them, Lerasium) to suck power from the pool of power, and is then let out by the person as specific magics, caused by the warping of the power through the metal, and this energy then recollects at the Shardpool.

Well, at the end of Hero of Ages Vin powers Elend directly. Elend is out metals and about to be overrun with koloss when he looks up and thinks about how he has faith that Vin will save him, when his stomach is suddenly full of metals (except atium) that cannot be burned away, and he can feel the power and see Vin in the clouds. As a matter of fact Brandon talks about this a little bit.

CZANOS (17 OCTOBER 2008)

Preservation can fuel Allomancy, (Minus Atium.) but can Ruin fuel Hemalurgy? (Or Atium?) And could Sazed fuel all three Metallic Arts?

BRANDON SANDERSON (17 OCTOBER 2008)

Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the metallic arts. Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do.

Source

To me at least, it seems the "rarely" in the books happens when Vin powers Elend. (and possibly when the power at the Well is expended.

She wasn't devoting all of her power to it though, it was just one Allomancer. Although I suspect this might possibly be one of the ways that Shards would expend power in "ways they were hesitant to". I wouldn't say that the energy from Allomancy collects at a Shardpool though, as far as I know, there isn't anything in books or interviews that suggests this to be the case. Just because the Shards don't purposely design magic systems, doesn't mean they can't power them directly.

Even if Vin could push the power at Elend, the only way I can see the power being increased is if it isn't the metal that determines the rate of flow, its the power of the metal to increase the leakage of the Shard. So, flaring the metal means you let more power drip through, which destroys the metal faster, whereas the normal rate is determined by homeostasis, the body regulating itself to stop it harming itself. So, theoretically, this explains savantism, as because they constantly defy their body's 'normal' rate, then this would surely warp them in some way. Sure, their body would absorb some residues of the power, but then it becomes almost addictive, with similar withdrawal symptoms.

Elend never became any more powerful just he had unlimited power but he could only draw so much through his body at once, just like any Allomancer. That's why I mentioned the possibility of Sazed temporarily making Waxes pewter Allomancy stronger. It's not fact but I suspect that using the power of Preservation and Ruin he could either increase the power of the spike with Ruin, or increase the amount of Preservation inside with Preservation, both amounting to the same thing. If he increases that power enough, not the amount flowing through but Wax's connection to Preservation through the spike, he could use pewter more effectively. I'm not saying it could happen for sure but I think it's a possibility.

But, while in theory Sazed could do it, according to his 'logic' and his mindset, he is unlikely too. Balance, decisions, individualism. Not the sort of ideals that inspire picking sides. Besides, this is beneath him in terms of planetary domination. He has other Shards to worry about, not petty squabbling between mere mortals.

But the fact is, he already got involved. He apparently manipulated events so Wax's guns and mistcoat ended up in the underground tunnel, and he takes credit for it too with his, "You're welcome". So he's already involved and on Wax's side. I'm sure he doesn't want the government his friends created to collapse. And Sazed himself said that he want the most possible to make their own choices which implies to me that he is not above altering events directly, he just wants to keep it to a minimum.

Most nutjobs attempt to be the most dangerous nutjob that they can manage. In the case of gold, and the bindpoint of 'the arm', we aren't sure exactly what power it would grant (determined as one in four by the bindpoint, or no power at all if 'the arm' isn't a correct bindpoint for gold), but it has been theorized over on Mistborn board (who are famous for their scientific approach to this whole Metallic Arts thing) that it steals Temporal Feruchemy. I'm not sure what classifies as 'Temporal' Feruchemy, but I'm assuming that Age is one of them.

But unless Miles is the only person in Elendel that has access to a non-existent metal, I'm assuming he doesn't actively use Atium Feruchemy, even if the goldminds were charged that way. Others I think might stand for Temporal Feruchemy: Wakefulness, Archivist (take memories through time? More mental), Steelrunner (time/speed?). None stand out particularly as a 'quadrant' in Feruchemy...

There is no temporal Feruchemy. It was originally divided into four quadrants. Two physical ones, a cognitive, and a spiritual. Brandon made a mistake though. He put warmth, an obviously physical power, in a quadrant full of cognitive abilities. What was actually supposed to be there was determination that was in the other physical quadrant, with breath, health, and the food/water one. Brandon has decided that it works differently now. The RPG has at least one error on it's table but from the way he's talked about it, the problem has been solved.

As you said, Sazed's goal is to allow people to make their own choices. That doesn't necessarily mean always doing good. Miles was making his own choices, after all. Sazed seems to have been successful with him, if that was his goal.

My point is though, if Sazed was going to help both of them, he might as well help neither of them, save himself some trouble, and let events run their course. As I mentioned above Sazed says as many as possible can make their own choices. But I think that means, and is shown in the book, that Sazed isn't above helping the right side. He has the kandra to alter the world as well, so to me, it seems clear that he does his best to let the world run itself but he won't just let good things fall apart.

[Thought]

My point is though, if Sazed was going to help both of them, he might as well help neither of them, save himself some trouble, and let events run their course.

My point being, if he helped neither, then neither may have had the opportunity to make their own choice.

[Windrunner]

I'm afraid I'm not following here. They were still free to make choices no matter what Sazed did. As a matter of fact they may have been more able to make their own choices if Sazed hadn't gotten involved. He'd be constraining their options if he was driving them toward a conflict. What am I missing?

[Zas678]

I think I might have an answer to the Non-interference vs Helping the Good Guys. He helps both of them, but in different ways. He gives Wax the spiked earring (which I believe has a good chance of powering pewter allomantically), and then gives him some of his energy. But now he's out of balance, so he gives Miles revelations (before he dies) to help him, but it won't help Miles much because he's dead. That way he gets to use his power on both sides, but he pretty much helps the good guys (especially since Marasi heard some of Mile's visions).

That is, if Mile really saw visions. There's a chance he was just being cryptic. Or crazy.

And why does Sazed help? Probably because he knows that Wax is trying to do a good thing, and he knows how important this is to the world. If this was something that was going to be mentioned in the next trilogy, which is still at least 50 years away, that means it's an important historical event. I mean, I don't often talk about random crimes from the past. But I do mention very important things. Like significant breakthroughs in science, or Pearl Harbor, or things that society as a whole was involved with. So whatever's coming up is going to be very big, and Sazed wants to make sure that the right side comes out on top.

EDIT- And as for the free choice issue, I don't think Sazed was constraining them by helping power them slightly, or by pushing Wax to "do the right thing" and help. I mean the choice was still theirs to make. Miles could've walked away. Wax could've decided to just keep his head down, and let it happen. He would've been miserable if he had done that, but he could've done that. And if the only time Sazed really helps was the pewter with Wax and that chest, then he's not promoting the conflict- he's just helping push his favorite to victory.

[Triasmus]

How about we just say that if Miles won, a smaller amount of people would have been able to make their own choices . That lets Sazed help Wax without helping the bad guy (and I don't think Sazed would have been able to fool himself into believing that he was helping Miles with visions when he really wasn't ).

[Odium's_Shard]

Can Preservation even give Visions? Unless I've missed something, like a BS quote, or a proven link between them and tWoK. Or do we just assume that if he can speak into Miles mind with words, why not with pictures and flashing lights?