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[SA5] Can the Stormfather lie?


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Just starting a SA reread explicitly to examine the Stormfather, but reread the prologue just to prep. At the start of the chapter this exchange takes place.

Spoiler

Gavilar: The end of the world. Was it a lie?

Stormfather: That depends, upon your definition of lies. Many who name it such believed what they said. 

Later Gavilar accuses him of lying and he responds "Oh Gavilar, there is so much you do not know" neither confirming or denying the accusation. 

Is it possible that anything possibly taken as a lie from the Stormfather could be explained by a difference of perspective?

Haven't gotten far into the reread but plan to note anything said by the Stormfather and see if it can be definitively disproven. Off the top of my head I think there are two to contend with immediately. Him saying Syl was dead but that could be easily explained as her losing her connection and being close. Spren call recreant spren dead, so I don't see it as a lie. And telling Gavilar the Heralds were dead. We don't hear the exact words told Gavilar and it's possible that he could be calling the people they were dead. It's a stretch but I can see some reasons the Stormfather might could be considered "truthful." 

What do you think? I'm asking assuming this IS the Stormfather. I like the stormfaker theory but don't buy in. Just wanted to get other opinions on whether we think he's really lying or if he just has different definitions.

 

Edited by boolamoo
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The being that claimed to be the Stormfather in the WoT preview can indeed lie because we saw them do it right in that scene: they insisted to Gavilar that the Heralds he'd were Not heralds.

Whether that being is in fact the Stormfather is a matter of lively debate, but Im in the camp that believes all evidence is that it is NOT the real Stormfather.  The Personality and Physical manifestations are all wrong.   They were also actively pushing Gavilar away from the real Immortal Words and toward something different and more aggressive (that I suspect will be a different set of Words for Voidbinders).  

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  • Argent changed the title to [SA5] Can the Stormfather lie?

He didn't say they weren't Heralds. He confirmed they were after Gavilar asked. I think he did lie (especially telling him spren can't lie when we have liespren) I thought it was worth bringing up, does he just have different perspective. 

And I too noticed when he was saying Gavilar was close to the words and far from them that it was clearly not "strength before weakness..." he was being led towards. But he also wasn't aiming to be Radiant. He wanted to be a Herald. Likely very different words.

As far as faker, I have a hard time believing Ishar to be behind it, because I don't know that he could mimic Gavilar being able to see the endless storms in his face. The description just sounded so much like a piece of a shard. And if it had been Odium, it would've likely been red eyes in the storms. It IS possible that he saw both the stormfaker and Stormfather in the day before and after his meetings, but I feel like it's a lot for us to believe that he wouldn't catch on to two different beings. They'd have contradicted each other at some point by then and even if Gavilar didn't notice the Stormfather would  notice Gav referencing conversations they never had.

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On 6/12/2024 at 7:06 PM, boolamoo said:

Just starting a SA reread explicitly to examine the Stormfather, but reread the prologue just to prep. At the start of the chapter this exchange takes place.

  Hide contents

Gavilar: The end of the world. Was it a lie?

Stormfather: That depends, upon your definition of lies. Many who name it such believed what they said. 

Later Gavilar accuses him of lying and he responds "Oh Gavilar, there is so much you do not know" neither confirming or denying the accusation. 

Is it possible that anything possibly taken as a lie from the Stormfather could be explained by a difference of perspective?

Haven't gotten far into the reread but plan to note anything said by the Stormfather and see if it can be definitively disproven. Off the top of my head I think there are two to contend with immediately. Him saying Syl was dead but that could be easily explained as her losing her connection and being close. Spren call recreant spren dead, so I don't see it as a lie. And telling Gavilar the Heralds were dead. We don't hear the exact words told Gavilar and it's possible that he could be calling the people they were dead. It's a stretch but I can see some reasons the Stormfather might could be considered "truthful." 

What do you think? I'm asking assuming this IS the Stormfather. I like the stormfaker theory but don't buy in. Just wanted to get other opinions on whether we think he's really lying or if he just has different definitions.

 

Well, there are several big discussions going on about the real nature of the Stormfather from SA5 prologue, here if you're interested:

https://www.17thshard.com/forums/topic/107059-discuss-the-stormlight-5-prologue-here/

https://www.17thshard.com/forums/topic/107700-stormlight-5-the-stormfaker-isnt-a-cracktheory-the-official-stormfakers-support-group/

Personally, I believe that this is the real Stormfather that lies. I think we've already catched him lying in OB ch 38 (especially if you consider that Chana is Shallan's mother theory):

Quote

Dalinar leaped to his feet. “It’s him!” he shouted. “The madman. He really is a Herald!”
HE FINALLY BROKE, the Stormfather said. HE HAS JOINED THE NINE, WHO STILL LIVE. IN THESE MILLENNIA NONE HAVE EVER DIED AND RETURNED TO DAMNATION, BUT IT DOESN’T MATTER AS IT ONCE DID.

We know Taln didn't break and if Chana is Shallan's mother then she died a few years in the past, which is a double lie from the Stormfather. He also tried to avoid answering Dalinar's question about Heralds location, but when Dalinar pressed him, he confessed that he sees Ishar sometimes OB ch 64:

Quote

“Do you know where they are?”
I have told you. I do not see all. Only glimpses in the storms.
“Do you know where they are?”
Only one, he said with a rumble. I … have seen Ishar. He curses me at night, even as he names himself a god. He seeks death. His own. Perhaps that of every man.

And we have Pattern, who lied to Shallan about being the one whom she used to kill her mother. Honorspren lied and falsely imprisoned Kalak to manipulate Adolin's trial. Spren obviously can lie, the Stormfather should be no different. The Stormfather is cagy, he always has been like that - remember that time when he tried to kill everyone without helping at the end of WoR? Yeah, if he can do that, lying is nothing big to him. 

The thing with Syl is also a bit weird to me. Sure at one hand even Syl said she was as dead as Kaladin's Oaths, so the Stormfather telling Kaladin that he killed her wasn't a lie, but on the other hand Kaladin still didn't break his Oath fully, she still wasn't a real Deadeye like Testament was and he was actively keeping her from returning to Kaladin, to the point that he said "she's disobeying him," which means he ordered not-dead Syl to stay with him. So was that a lie, or did he try to force Syl away from Kal and lied? WoR ch 83:

Quote

I AM CALLED. I MUST GO. A DAUGHTER DISOBEYS.

 

16 hours ago, boolamoo said:

And I too noticed when he was saying Gavilar was close to the words and far from them that it was clearly not "strength before weakness..." he was being led towards. But he also wasn't aiming to be Radiant. He wanted to be a Herald. Likely very different words.

It's not the words that matter, it's the intent behind them. All the times Gavilar tried to guess the Words, there was no real intent behind them, no belief, just blind guessing. That's not how Ideals work. You have to believe in the Words, mean them, live them, there has to be Intent behind them. The very first time Gavilar said words with real Intent was "give it to me," that's the only time he really meant them and he didn't try to guess - but this time his words were totally wrong. So close, yet so far. 

Quote

It’s not about what you are saying. That is not what is wrong.

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