[SA5] Can the Stormfather lie?

[boolamoo]

Just starting a SA reread explicitly to examine the Stormfather, but reread the prologue just to prep. At the start of the chapter this exchange takes place.

Spoiler

Gavilar: The end of the world. Was it a lie?

Stormfather: That depends, upon your definition of lies. Many who name it such believed what they said. 

Later Gavilar accuses him of lying and he responds "Oh Gavilar, there is so much you do not know" neither confirming or denying the accusation. 

Is it possible that anything possibly taken as a lie from the Stormfather could be explained by a difference of perspective?

Haven't gotten far into the reread but plan to note anything said by the Stormfather and see if it can be definitively disproven. Off the top of my head I think there are two to contend with immediately. Him saying Syl was dead but that could be easily explained as her losing her connection and being close. Spren call recreant spren dead, so I don't see it as a lie. And telling Gavilar the Heralds were dead. We don't hear the exact words told Gavilar and it's possible that he could be calling the people they were dead. It's a stretch but I can see some reasons the Stormfather might could be considered "truthful." 

What do you think? I'm asking assuming this IS the Stormfather. I like the stormfaker theory but don't buy in. Just wanted to get other opinions on whether we think he's really lying or if he just has different definitions.

 

Edited June 12, 2024 by boolamoo
Hiding spoiler

[Quantus he/him]

The being that claimed to be the Stormfather in the WoT preview can indeed lie because we saw them do it right in that scene: they insisted to Gavilar that the Heralds he'd were Not heralds.

Whether that being is in fact the Stormfather is a matter of lively debate, but Im in the camp that believes all evidence is that it is NOT the real Stormfather.  The Personality and Physical manifestations are all wrong.   They were also actively pushing Gavilar away from the real Immortal Words and toward something different and more aggressive (that I suspect will be a different set of Words for Voidbinders).  

[boolamoo]

He didn't say they weren't Heralds. He confirmed they were after Gavilar asked. I think he did lie (especially telling him spren can't lie when we have liespren) I thought it was worth bringing up, does he just have different perspective. 

And I too noticed when he was saying Gavilar was close to the words and far from them that it was clearly not "strength before weakness..." he was being led towards. But he also wasn't aiming to be Radiant. He wanted to be a Herald. Likely very different words.

As far as faker, I have a hard time believing Ishar to be behind it, because I don't know that he could mimic Gavilar being able to see the endless storms in his face. The description just sounded so much like a piece of a shard. And if it had been Odium, it would've likely been red eyes in the storms. It IS possible that he saw both the stormfaker and Stormfather in the day before and after his meetings, but I feel like it's a lot for us to believe that he wouldn't catch on to two different beings. They'd have contradicted each other at some point by then and even if Gavilar didn't notice the Stormfather would  notice Gav referencing conversations they never had.

[alder24]

On 6/12/2024 at 7:06 PM, boolamoo said:

Just starting a SA reread explicitly to examine the Stormfather, but reread the prologue just to prep. At the start of the chapter this exchange takes place.

  Hide contents

Gavilar: The end of the world. Was it a lie?

Stormfather: That depends, upon your definition of lies. Many who name it such believed what they said. 

Later Gavilar accuses him of lying and he responds "Oh Gavilar, there is so much you do not know" neither confirming or denying the accusation. 

Is it possible that anything possibly taken as a lie from the Stormfather could be explained by a difference of perspective?

Haven't gotten far into the reread but plan to note anything said by the Stormfather and see if it can be definitively disproven. Off the top of my head I think there are two to contend with immediately. Him saying Syl was dead but that could be easily explained as her losing her connection and being close. Spren call recreant spren dead, so I don't see it as a lie. And telling Gavilar the Heralds were dead. We don't hear the exact words told Gavilar and it's possible that he could be calling the people they were dead. It's a stretch but I can see some reasons the Stormfather might could be considered "truthful." 

What do you think? I'm asking assuming this IS the Stormfather. I like the stormfaker theory but don't buy in. Just wanted to get other opinions on whether we think he's really lying or if he just has different definitions.

 

Well, there are several big discussions going on about the real nature of the Stormfather from SA5 prologue, here if you're interested:

https://www.17thshard.com/forums/topic/107059-discuss-the-stormlight-5-prologue-here/

https://www.17thshard.com/forums/topic/107700-stormlight-5-the-stormfaker-isnt-a-cracktheory-the-official-stormfakers-support-group/

Personally, I believe that this is the real Stormfather that lies. I think we've already catched him lying in OB ch 38 (especially if you consider that Chana is Shallan's mother theory):

Quote

Dalinar leaped to his feet. “It’s him!” he shouted. “The madman. He really is a Herald!”
HE FINALLY BROKE, the Stormfather said. HE HAS JOINED THE NINE, WHO STILL LIVE. IN THESE MILLENNIA NONE HAVE EVER DIED AND RETURNED TO DAMNATION, BUT IT DOESN’T MATTER AS IT ONCE DID.

We know Taln didn't break and if Chana is Shallan's mother then she died a few years in the past, which is a double lie from the Stormfather. He also tried to avoid answering Dalinar's question about Heralds location, but when Dalinar pressed him, he confessed that he sees Ishar sometimes OB ch 64:

Quote

“Do you know where they are?”
I have told you. I do not see all. Only glimpses in the storms.
“Do you know where they are?”
Only one, he said with a rumble. I … have seen Ishar. He curses me at night, even as he names himself a god. He seeks death. His own. Perhaps that of every man.

And we have Pattern, who lied to Shallan about being the one whom she used to kill her mother. Honorspren lied and falsely imprisoned Kalak to manipulate Adolin's trial. Spren obviously can lie, the Stormfather should be no different. The Stormfather is cagy, he always has been like that - remember that time when he tried to kill everyone without helping at the end of WoR? Yeah, if he can do that, lying is nothing big to him. 

The thing with Syl is also a bit weird to me. Sure at one hand even Syl said she was as dead as Kaladin's Oaths, so the Stormfather telling Kaladin that he killed her wasn't a lie, but on the other hand Kaladin still didn't break his Oath fully, she still wasn't a real Deadeye like Testament was and he was actively keeping her from returning to Kaladin, to the point that he said "she's disobeying him," which means he ordered not-dead Syl to stay with him. So was that a lie, or did he try to force Syl away from Kal and lied? WoR ch 83:

Quote

I AM CALLED. I MUST GO. A DAUGHTER DISOBEYS.

 

16 hours ago, boolamoo said:

And I too noticed when he was saying Gavilar was close to the words and far from them that it was clearly not "strength before weakness..." he was being led towards. But he also wasn't aiming to be Radiant. He wanted to be a Herald. Likely very different words.

It's not the words that matter, it's the intent behind them. All the times Gavilar tried to guess the Words, there was no real intent behind them, no belief, just blind guessing. That's not how Ideals work. You have to believe in the Words, mean them, live them, there has to be Intent behind them. The very first time Gavilar said words with real Intent was "give it to me," that's the only time he really meant them and he didn't try to guess - but this time his words were totally wrong. So close, yet so far. 

Quote

It’s not about what you are saying. That is not what is wrong.

[The Stick]

I have thought that that scene could be Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow being a bit more active than he normally is, but I would say he is the real Stormfather regardless.

[teknopathetic he/him]

I am firmly on the Stormfaker side. Even if the Sotrmfather is lying to Dalinar, I cant think of a reason why. If the Stormfather has evil goals to make new heralds, he sure hasn't given up any reason for it nor shown any interest in persuing it post-Gavilar. 

As for the faker, i am thinking it is Ishar or Ba-Ado-Mishram. People have gone into Isahr so I wont beat a dead horse. 

Ba-Ado-Mishram is an interesting choice seeing as she was a mini-god, has a connection to all spren, and I was trapped by bondsmith in the spiritual realm. Perhaps Ba-Ado believes that a new herald would be able to free her? And seeing as she is the spren of spren, maybe she has some connection to the herlands and the oathpact? Perhaps she could sneak into proro-bondsmiths through the stormfather bond and begin fiddling there. 

We have no idea what shoving a mini-god into the spiritual realm would do. We do know she is self aware according to what Kalek says. Perhaps she is the dark sun we see in Shadesmaar? But i doubt Ba-Ado-Mishram is 100% incapable of doing anything at all from the spiritual realm. And the spren of spren connections seems like a likely candidate for stormfather vision invasions. And if she were to do something, piggybacking onto spiritual realm connections to proto-bondsmiths sent into the physical by a a dead shard seems like a pretty good way to go about things. If anybody can manipulate spren and connection, it would be Ba-Ado-Mishram. 

I have a pet theory that Ba-Ado-Mishram was involved in the oath-pact as well. And my crack crack theory is that Ba-Ado-Mishram was the original 10th herald that Taln replaces. The stormfaker says "I am the biggest fool of them all" regarding the heralds. Maybe Ba-Ado-Mishram considers herself the biggest fool for going with Odium. 

Edited July 26, 2024 by teknopathetic

[alder24]

2 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Even if the Sotrmfather is lying to Dalinar, I cant think of a reason why. If the Stormfather has evil goals to make new heralds, he sure hasn't given up any reason for it nor shown any interest in persuing it post-Gavilar. 

From the narrative point of view, the reason is quite obvious - to shift the relationship between Dalinar and the Stormfather and introduce more conflict. Remember that time in RoW when Shallan suspected Pattern of treason and working with Ghostbloods? Even if that was a very short lived thing, it turned their relationship upside down for a moment and led to something bigger. 

As for while the Stormfather wasn't doing anything in that direction after Gavilar was killed, it's simple - a Herald died, soon they will break and a new Desolation will start. There is no way to prevent it from coming in such a short timeframe. They're doomed and there is also no clear way to stop this Desolation as even Odium can't force his Fused to remain on Braize - now Fused souls are bound to the Everstorm, being reborn in it and they don't return to Braize after their death - they're fully going around the Oathpact. Of course that's it he wanted to even make new Heralds, I wouldn't be so sure about it as the way he said it was... weird. 

2 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Ba-Ado-Mishram is an interesting choice seeing as she was a mini-god, has a connection to all spren, and I was trapped by bondsmith in the spiritual realm. Perhaps Ba-Ado believes that a new herald would be able to free her? And seeing as she is the spren of spren, maybe she has some connection to the herlands and the oathpact? Perhaps she could sneak into proro-bondsmiths through the stormfather bond and begin fiddling there. 

I think the problem with BAM is that she had those Connections, but doesn't have them now. Her imprisonment in a gemstone broke all her Connections, which in turn wounded all spren, beings and most importantly Singers. It's like how it was with Jezrien. Trapping him in a gemstone broke all his Connections to the PR and to the Oathpact, allowing his soul to fade into the Beyond. BAM should not be able to do any of this.

[teknopathetic he/him]

32 minutes ago, alder24 said:

 

I think the problem with BAM is that she had those Connections, but doesn't have them now. Her imprisonment in a gemstone broke all her Connections, which in turn wounded all spren, beings and most importantly Singers. It's like how it was with Jezrien. Trapping him in a gemstone broke all his Connections to the PR and to the Oathpact, allowing his soul to fade into the Beyond. BAM should not be able to do any of this.

I totally agree she should have no connections since she is trapped in a gemstone. 

However, let's imagine that Brandon wanted a way for Ba-Ado-Mishram to affect the plot a little bit so that Ba-Ado-Mishram is a bigger deal going into book 6. I think what we have going on is exactly how Brandon might set up this opportunity for Ba-Ado-Mishram to effect the plot.

Brandon makes sure that the visions are Spiritual Realm zoom calls that have been auto-scheduled. The God that designed them is dead. The Stormfather is disinterested and pays little to no attention to the visions themselves. No one is watching what goes on in the visions. Brandon also makes it explicitly clear that it is easy to slide into a vision by having Lift and Venli slide in seamlessly. It aint hard to hijack the signal behind these things. And how does one connect to them? Through the a spiritual realm perpendicularity. Perfect news for Ba-ado-Mishram. She waits for honour to die and for a suitable candidate to show up. 

Because the Spiritual realm is weird, and because Ba-Ado-Mishram is a mini god, Ba-Ado-Mishram manages to piggyback her influence out of the spiritual realm through the zoom-call perpendicularity visions. No one notices her doing this because Honor is dead and because the Stormfather is only begrudgingly allowing people enter the visions due to a promise. As she gets better at it, she manages to connect with proto-bondsmiths outside of the visions. She then influenced Gavilar in hopes of creating a new Herald that might be able to free her. The Stormfather becomes confused and is unsure what is going on. 

Knowing nothing of Ba Ado Mishrams connection to Spren, or the herald spren, or what she was doing with the zoom call spritual realm stormfather hijack, it is unclear how or why she felt a herald die. But if anyone is going to feel the death of a herald spren, it would be the god of spren bonds zooming into the cognitive ream while trying to make a new herald. 

Edited July 26, 2024 by teknopathetic

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

I totally agree she should have no connections since she is trapped in a gemstone. 

However, let's imagine that Brandon wanted a way for Ba-Ado-Mishram to affect the plot a little bit so that Ba-Ado-Mishram is a bigger deal going into book 6. I think what we have going on is exacrtly how Brandon might set up this opportunity for Ba-Ado-Mishram to effect the plot.

Brandon makes sure that the visions are Spiritual Realm zoom calls that have been auto-scheduled. The God that designed them is dead. The Stormfather is disinterested and pays little to no attention to the visions themselves. No one is watching what goes on in the visions. Brandon also makes it explicitly clear that it is easy to slide into a vision by having Lift and Venli slide in seamlessly. It aint hard to hijack the signal behind these things. And how does one connect to them? Through the a spirutal realm perpendicularity. Perfect news for Ba-ado-Mishram. 

Brandon then shoves the gemmed Mishram into the Spiritual realm. But because the Spiritual realm is weird, and because Ba-Ado-Mishram is a mini god, Ba-Ado-Mishram manages to piggyback her influence out of the spiritual realm through the zoom-call perpendicularity visions. No one notices her doing this because Honor is dead and because the Stormfather is only begrudgingly allowing people enter the visions due to a promise. As she gets better at it, she manages to connect with proto-bondsmiths outside of the visions. She then influenced Gavilar in hopes of creating a new Herald that might be able to free her.

I guess we know too little to dismiss that possibility. It might be possible. The important question is can a spren trapped in a gemstone establish new connections with something outside of that gemstone? We don't know it, for me it seems unlikely. 

However I wouldn't say that the Stormfather doesn't pay much attention to his visions, I disagree with it. He's responsible for sending and ending them, he knows what's happening in them, he knows their meaning to some degree. The moment Lift spoke in Dalinar's vision, the Stormfather became aware she's there somehow - the moment BAM (or anyone else) tries to speak to Gavilar, the Stormfather knows someone else is there. Moreover I highly doubt that the Stormfather would pass over the fact that Gavilar is having two conversations at once - it's really hard to miss.

And Venli was brought in by the Stormfather during a Highstorm. Odium broke into Dalinar's vision - forcefully and very openly.