Soulcasting Volume vs Mass? Cosmere wide implications... Ghostblood uses? Absolutely economy and system breaking.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

I have been thinking about how soulcasting works. In my mind it is always been volume stays a constant and then mass changes based on what you are soulcasting. Hence the use of wax and soulcasting for structures and such. It seems far to complicated to be that mass stays the constant and volume is variable. 

I have also been thinking of how powerful this could be in the hands of someone like Kelsier. We know the Ghostbloods had a soulcaster but what about when they not only have a soulcaster but also a means by which to transport stormlight and unlock its uses on other planets? 

There are already a ton of implications between Scadrial tech and metalborn being able to supercharge totally unlocked metalminds in the future. But Scadrial is going to be so limited by metal eventually. It is not a renewable resource from what I gather and the implementation of compounding fueling technology in the future could find Scadrial running low on metals all together. 

Lets take Gold as our example and as, what I would personally be targeting first if building an army.  Miles had to turn to a life of crime to feed his compounding habits. Gold is expensive. And it is limited. It would probably be easier to create a small factory of compounders to fill gold medallions than it would to supply the needed gold to make use of it. But that is where a soulcaster and some good full gems could come in really handy. 

Now I need to ask another question as the answer to this could really make a difference in the viability of this: 

Do soulcasters use up stormlight based on the volume or the mass that they are changing?  Gold is massive... If it is mass based then the stormlight is going to stretch less. If it is volume based then we are in the system hacking business! Traditionally Soulcasters have been used to supply armies and even help with building up structures. The coppermind even points out "Soulcasting is useful in engineering and construction. Many items or buildings on Roshar are first constructed out of light and easy-to-shape materials, such as wood or wax, and then Soulcast into more durable substances."  Though it doesn't specify the amount of stormight to change an entire building into anything else. 

Soulcasting doesn't really change anything on Roshar because the fuel to run soulcasting is only used by such a small % of people. 

In the hands of the Ghostbloods? The things you can soulcast ARE the fuel for the magic users. The fact that soulcasters can be used in combat makes me think that they must be able to soulcast multiple people on the same gemstone. It would be awfully ineffective to need to change out gemstones every kill or three... and it must be efficient enough to make it such taboo to use in combat and even forbidden. But what would a single person turned to gold mean for people of Scadrial? 

Getting less gruesome lets look at a traditional building material used on Roshar, wax. A cubic foot of wax weighs just under 60 lbs. That same cubic foot of gold weighs more than 1200lbs. That is 19200oz and at ~$2300 / oz a single cubit foot of wax turned into gold would hold a value in todays market of $44million! 

Not sure how much Miles stole and burnt in his compounding but that is a single cubit foot! I am sure that a single gem in a soulcaster could be worth billions and billions of dollars in the weight of gold. 

If the soulcaster could only change gold the entire look of Scadrials military might changes with only a gemstones worth of stormlight. 

Gold can heal the spiritweb and Miles could have become a spike machine! The amount of gold needed for this is trivialized thanks to a single soulcaster with a perfect gem or two. 

Now you take a couple of compounders and outfit your entire military with gold bracelets like we saw Wayne get in bands of mourning.... multiples of them because compounders paired with a nicroburst could do this insanely fast and with very little difficulty! 

Now you could even create spike machines out of other metalborn as well. Give a metalborn the ability to burn gold plus a massive amount of healing from a prefilled goldmind and spike them for new spikes too. 

The entire limitation behind the metalborn is that metal is a precious resource. But a single soulcaster that lets you soulcast metals could change the entire way the metallic arts function in the cosmere... not by changing them but by suddenly removing the natural resource that is metal. 

I also know that they say you cannot get perpetual motion, and the existance on stormlight only on Roshar does limit this process to what stormlight is available. But the minimal amounts of metal to make use of allomancy and compounding really shine through when you think of soulcasters being used to create buildings and feed armies. A single gem could be pushed pretty dang far I think. Billions of dollars per gem worth of metals. I dont know enough about electricity or its production to say anything beyond this... but what of brass compounding and harmonium primer cubes used to release that heat inside of generators?

 

This is a step above what I have already thought about... but as my mind wanders... We already see other magics converging on Scadrial. Down the road we have potential of seeing Aetherbound fighting along side metalborn and with a single soulcaster plus a bendalloy compounder you could see medallions and spikes dolled out to aetherbound who have access to years and possibly decades of hydration trapped in metalminds... plus a gold medallion. 

 

TLDR: I hope this is a reason Kelsier has agents on Roshar. I really want to see what can be unlocked on Scadrial with the availability of metals becoming a non factor.  I know militaries already get what they need but the whole infrastructure of needing to transport and acquire the materials would be trivialized down to whatever is lying around that has a decent amount of volume. 

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

This is an infuriating response, I know, but...it seems to depend on context.

For example, Jasnah turns a human man to crystal and loses no volume in that transformation. Clearly, mass was increased that time. If she had turned him to wood, mass would have been lost.

She also turns a boulder to smoke (which is technically a combination of soot, air, and water vapor not a pure substance...) with explosive results; it's not conclusive, but it's implied that mass is preserved, otherwise she should have ended up with a simple puff and cloud of soot, not an explosive transition. It stands to reason that a massive cloud of air could be turned to stone of a much smaller volume, creating a vacuum, though this hasn't been confirmed yet I think.

Best guess? The proportion of mass/volume that gets preserved during a transformation is variable and depends on the phases of matter being dealt with and possibly also the intent and perception of the operator.

For example, Wax can perceive multiple steel lines for complex metal assemblies where most coinshots would see only one because he thinks about the objects differently. If Jasnah schooled herself in believing in her soul that volume should always be the property that is conservative, then she might be able to evaporate boulders from existence with much less violent results (totally speculative).

Edited June 10, 2024 by hwiles

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

4 hours ago, hwiles said:

This is an infuriating response, I know, but...it seems to depend on context.

For example, Jasnah turns a human man to crystal and loses no volume in that transformation. Clearly, mass was increased that time. If she had turned him to wood, mass would have been lost.

She also turns a boulder to smoke (which is technically a combination of soot, air, and water vapor not a pure substance...) with explosive results; it's not conclusive, but it's implied that mass is preserved, otherwise she should have ended up with a simple puff and cloud of soot, not an explosive transition. It stands to reason that a massive cloud of air could be turned to stone of a much smaller volume, creating a vacuum, though this hasn't been confirmed yet I think.

Best guess? The proportion of mass/volume that gets preserved during a transformation is variable and depends on the phases of matter being dealt with and possibly also the intent and perception of the operator.

For example, Wax can perceive multiple steel lines for complex metal assemblies where most coinshots would see only one because he thinks about the objects differently. If Jasnah schooled herself in believing in her soul that volume should always be the property that is conservative, then she might be able to evaporate boulders from existence with much less violent results (totally speculative).

Yeah. I think Brandon sometimes does things by the rule of cool and you end up with an inconsistency that just happens to exist. A violent reaction to something that has been done thousands of times before for the purpose of a cool visual for a scene is not unheard of.  

Perhaps there is something different about a spoulcasting fabrial where it is volume that stays constant and mass changes where as being a radiant with access to the surge of transformation allows you to get more destructive and beneficial uses out of it.  Similarly to how medallions seem to play by slightly different rules than a ferring with the same ability.  

I think that is how I will head cannon it for now.  

Soulcasting fabrial is default to maintain volume specifically. Soulcasting surge can modify intent for more cinematic and dramatic effects.  

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Yeah. I think Brandon sometimes does things by the rule of cool and you end up with an inconsistency that just happens to exist. A violent reaction to something that has been done thousands of times before for the purpose of a cool visual for a scene is not unheard of.  

Perhaps there is something different about a spoulcasting fabrial where it is volume that stays constant and mass changes where as being a radiant with access to the surge of transformation allows you to get more destructive and beneficial uses out of it.  Similarly to how medallions seem to play by slightly different rules than a ferring with the same ability.  

I think that is how I will head cannon it for now.  

Soulcasting fabrial is default to maintain volume specifically. Soulcasting surge can modify intent for more cinematic and dramatic effects.  

That sounds like a pretty reasonable assessment honestly. For those who earned the powers the hard way, the powers are subject to interpretation, intent, and will and can lead to peculiar or inconsistent results on screen because they're operating based on intuition and trial and error. For those who earn the powers via regiment and close instruction, or derive them from a machine (machines of course have to be precisely tuned and regulated to be reliably reproducible to begin with) the powers should behave more consistently and uniformly with less opportunity for novel results.

It's interesting to consider that mechanizing the powers of the Radiants will likely restrict said powers relative to the Radiants even more greatly than the Oaths placed on the Radiants did relative to the same powers as used by the Heralds. Luckily, Roshar does not suffer from the same superstitions regarding blood-purity as Scadrial, so...as long as their basic governing institutions keep functioning, they should always have a steady supply of fresh human Radiants, whereas parts of Scadrial are nearly incapable of producing metalborn because of how they treat natural power at this point...

[Treamayne]

9 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

But Scadrial is going to be so limited by metal eventually. It is not a renewable resource from what I gather and the implementation of compounding fueling technology in the future could find Scadrial running low on metals all together. 

I think this is an incorrect premise, in case that affects your theory. WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Burned metals are turned into a different form, and will eventually return to the planet. The Pits of Hathsin are meant to foreshadow this.

Phoenix Comicon 2013 (May 24, 2013)

Quote

Questioner

So, you know, on Scadrial, once metal is burned, it returns to the ecosystem, because matter is not created or destroyed. Does color do the same thing on Nalthis? 

Brandon Sanderson

You're gonna make me try to decide-- does color have, um-- I'll have to think about it...

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

Re: 

8 hours ago, hwiles said:

9 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Do soulcasters use up stormlight based on the volume or the mass that they are changing? 

Jasnah turns a human man to crystal and loses no volume in that transformation. Clearly, mass was increased that time. If she had turned him to wood, mass would have been lost.

She also turns a boulder to smoke (which is technically a combination of soot, air, and water vapor not a pure substance...) with explosive results; it's not conclusive, but it's implied that mass is preserved,

I think intent plays a crucial role here - in WoK we see Jasnah specifically thinking about the boulder's mass (and quizzing Shallan about it), but no indications that she considered mass at all with the alley criminals. Either way, the amount of consumed Stormlight is unlikely to fluctuate much, since it's about applying investiture to the Spiritweb and changing that, so that the change cascades to the Cognitive and Physical. There is a difference between Stormlight Consumption between Fabrial and Radiant Soulcasting (and Radiants in different oath levels of investiture efficiency) and I think the variance of mass/volume is more likely a factor in fabrial soulcasting, since we see Kaza become more efficient as a Smoke Essence Savant (able to change a larger amount alone than was shown in WoR to require multiple fabrials working together to accomplish).

It may also be possible, that part of the equation is starting and ending states Gas to/from Solid seems more likely to be mass related, while Solid to/from a different solid more likely to be volume. Shallan's "Goblet to Blood" Soulcasting in WoK also seemed more "mass related" in that the amount of blood created was frighteningly high, but since the description of both the starting goblet size and the actual amount of blood created are both nebulous, it is hard to tell. 

Edited June 11, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG/Shallan example

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

10 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I think this is an incorrect premise, in case that affects your theory. WoBs:

  Hide contents

 

Re: 

I think intent plays a crucial role here - in WoK we see Jasnah specifically thinking about the boulder's mass (and quizzing Shallan about it), but no indications that she considered mass at all with the alley criminals. Either way, the amount of consumed Stormlight is unlikely to fluctuate much, since it's about applying investiture to the Spiritweb and changing that, so that the change cascades to the Cognitive and Physical. There is a difference between Stormlight Consumption between Fabrial and Radiant Soulcasting (and Radiants in different oath levels of investiture efficiency) and I think the variance of mass/volume is more likely a factor in fabrial soulcasting, since we see Kaza become more efficient as a Smoke Essence Savant (able to change a larger amount alone than was shown in WoR to require multiple fabrials working together to accomplish).

It may also be possible, that part of the equation is starting and ending states Gas to/from Solid seems more likely to be mass related, while Solid to/from a different solid more likely to be volume. Shallan's "Goblet to Blood" Soulcasting in WoK also seemed more "mass related" in that the amount of blood created was frighteningly high, but since the description of both the starting goblet size and the actual amount of blood created are both nebulous, it is hard to tell. 

I appreciate the WoBs. I may be wrong in that the metal will never run out.  But I don't see any downside to the fact that having access to thousands of pounds of precious metals at a time will make mass distribution of insanely powerful universal metalminds possible.  

Soulcasters have been used for centuries to produce rations for armies and such. Scadrial can ramp that up by soulcasting bendalloy (which from the sound of it is at least, if not more, valuable than gold). You find someone who can compound and fill universal bendalloyminds and you can supply months and possibly years worth of rations and water in the form of metal, without the cost of bendalloy nor the need to mine and produce it. 

Soulcasting destroys all gathering and production needs for all metals. 

We don't know enough about medallions to make any really big claims but it would appear that this is a possibility for everything already without soulcasting. Soulcasting would just make the process magnitudes fast and more reliable. 

I have a dream where you have elite squads who carry around a ring of different medallions each filled to the brim with all of the essentials.  Soulcasting, starting with a gold compounder for spike production to make the other compounders necessary, would make all of this process pretty gravy. 

 

[Isilel]

@Tamriel Wolfsbaine:

Soulcasters, being spren, are likely more difficult to transport off Roshar than stormlight. We know that this problem will be eventually solved for bonded Radiant spren, but soulcasters not having a bond might make it harder still.

There are also not many of them and most are severely limited in what  they can produce. While there may be a couple that can make gold, cadmium et al. are extremely unlikely. The devices also don't seem to allow for soulcasting at range that Radiants can employ. 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

56 minutes ago, Isilel said:

@Tamriel Wolfsbaine:

Soulcasters, being spren, are likely more difficult to transport off Roshar than stormlight. We know that this problem will be eventually solved for bonded Radiant spren, but soulcasters not having a bond might make it harder still.

There are also not many of them and most are severely limited in what  they can produce. While there may be a couple that can make gold, cadmium et al. are extremely unlikely. The devices also don't seem to allow for soulcasting at range that Radiants can employ. 

For sure there are differences.  And that is a solid point about the spren being trapped inside. 

As I read the coppermind it appears that there was one famous for bronze. But does that mean it was only able to soulcast things into bronze?  

I was always under the impression that if it was based on the essence. If a soulcaster is of the foil essence it is all metal... perhaps the owner of that famous soulcaster just really really liked bronze or whatever.  It also says it is more common for a soulcaster to be built for 3x the same essence. And for this discussion the only one that would be targeted is a 3x foil essence. The more amethyst the better for metalborn. 

I do think transporting it would be a challenge... although if the ghostbloods gathered the proper metalborn and placed them on Roshar to fill universal metalminds that were transported. Much higher risk there... 

But the entire goal as of now is to package up stormlight for transport between worlds. I think once that gets figured out and the radiants learn to move from world to world then the Ghostbloods will probably be very close behind. 

There are difficult hurdles to get over but if they did this would be a worth while endeavor to work on for Scadrial as a whole. 

[alder24]

21 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I have been thinking about how soulcasting works. In my mind it is always been volume stays a constant and then mass changes based on what you are soulcasting.

That's not true. Soulcasting is mostly mass preserving.

Spoiler

ReaderAt2046

Is Soulcasting mass-conservative (Soulcast a 1kg goblet, you get 1 kg of blood)?

Brandon Sanderson

In most circumstances, yes.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012)

 

Spoiler

Sorana (paraphrased)

Is Soulcasting volume- or mass-preserving?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It's mass-preserving, but there are some strange things going on and that's why we don't get as much explosions as we should. You can see a bit of what is going on when Jasnah Soulcasts air, there are some little reactions, but not as strong as you ought to get.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

21 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

But Scadrial is going to be so limited by metal eventually. It is not a renewable resource from what I gather and the implementation of compounding fueling technology in the future could find Scadrial running low on metals all together. 

Treamayne already provided the WoB, I just add that worrying that Scadrial will run out of metals is just pointless. The amount of metals on Earth is stupidly insane - 5% of Earth's crust is iron, 8% is aluminum, there is almost 3 billion metric tons of copper discovered in the crust etc. The numbers are just stupid and there are even more metals in asteroids to mine, which Scadrial will be able to do in the space era. All Allomancers are doing is just burning small flakes of metals, which have a tiny mass in total. Even if metal didn't return to Scadrial eventually (per WoB it's happening), there is no way that Scadrial will run out of metals because of Allomancy.

22 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

And it is limited. It would probably be easier to create a small factory of compounders to fill gold medallions than it would to supply the needed gold to make use of it.

Except for the fact that Miles was the only known gold compounder. Compounders are extremely rare and you can't make compounders with Hemalurgy.

 

Overall yes, it's easy to get metals with Soulcasting, but that's a trade-off. You get valuable metals, but you have to use valuable gemstones. 

21 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I was always under the impression that if it was based on the essence. If a soulcaster is of the foil essence it is all metal... perhaps the owner of that famous soulcaster just really really liked bronze or whatever.  It also says it is more common for a soulcaster to be built for 3x the same essence. And for this discussion the only one that would be targeted is a 3x foil essence. The more amethyst the better for metalborn. 

No, those are specialized it seems. Most Soulcasters are limited in what they can make, even within their Essence. So finding Soulcasters that can create metals you want will be a very difficult task.

Spoiler

ebilutionist

How would food production be like without soulcasters? Has Alethkar, for example, grown far beyond what it could (population-wise) without them?

Brandon Sanderson

The food question is a great one. As far as the Alethi go, it's more a matter of concentration than raw food production. Shipping is SLOW in Alethkar. It's long, which makes getting between north and south difficult, and the rivers aren't as useful as they are on (say) Earth.

The warcamps, for example, would starve themselves out short order without soulcasters. Supply lines are just not an Alethi strength. Kholinar, while not as big as Scadrian population centers, is also large enough that it depends on soulcasters for some of its food. It could survive without them, though, with northern Alethi food production.

Really, warfare is where they've learned to extend themselves, and depend on the soulcasters. Remember, gemstones in them DO break, so you do still need a ready supply of emeralds. The larger, the better.

ebilutionist

Very interesting on the food logistics of Alethkar - I never did quite imagine Kholinar was smaller than say, Elendel, but the technological progress there explains it.

Given how slow food transportation is, I would presume fresh food is a no-go. Are spices and preserved food selling well in Roshar, then? As for population centers, is Kholinar the largest around, or are other places a lot larger?

Brandon Sanderson

There's a reason that Herdazian food (which makes soulcast meat taste good) is popular these days.

Azimir is larger in population than Kholinar. Kholinar is big by Rosharan standards, but far smaller than an Earth population center (like London) at a comparable time. The warcamps had it beat by a lot--depending on how you view the warcamps. (As one city, or ten small ones.)

ebilutionist

Does that just mean Herdazian food is incredibly spice-heavy, then? Also, why is Soulcast food bland? Is it due to the nature of the object (changing food to food makes it tastier than stone to food), or just because the Soulcaster lacks practice, like Jasnah did with strawberry jam?

Brandon Sanderson

Flavorful, rather than spicy. Most western food is already spicy. The Herdazians offer something a little different, and are pretty good with soulcast meat. The portability is also a bit of a revolution.

Soulcasting anything other than the basic Essence requires some innate knowledge and practice. People could learn to soulcast better food, but it would have to be a Radiant with control over the process. The soulcaster fabrials are far more rigid in what they can create.

ebilutionist

As for soulcasting - now that is... interesting. So are Surgebinding fabrials more rigid in general? And what of an Honorblade when a non-Herald uses it?

Brandon Sanderson

A soulcaster is built to do a certain thing, and can do that certain thing well, but without as much flexibility. It is the difference between having a computer output a picture of a circle--following some inputs such as size and some changes to shape--and having an artist who can draw what you want.

Stormlight Three Update #4 (Oct. 20, 2016)