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Forgery/Metallic Art Shenanigans


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I've been thinking about this WoB and a few of its implications:

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/364-the-great-american-read-other-worlds-with-brandon-sanderson/#e11388

Questioner

Soul Forging. Emperor's Soul. If one created the stamp properly, could you, using it, say, Windrunner you stamp, rewrote past to be Lightweaver. Possible?

Brandon Sanderson

That is possible and a little easier than a lot of other things. It's gonna run into problems... in that the Oaths are gonna be hard to align.

Questioner

Probably require some very fine crafting on the stamp.

Brandon Sanderson

Very fine crafting on the stamp. And there are certain people that they're just gonna have a hard time fitting into certain Orders. This is a lot easier though than just taking a random person and making them into one, because you're gonna already have Investiture that they've got.

Questioner

And have the basis of the First Oath.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. So this is not as hard as it might at first sound. It's the sort of thing that people in the cosmere are looking at. Like, being able to transfer magics between-- and things like that is one of very much interest in the cosmere.

So, instead of trying to Forge just any Scadrien into being an Allomancer or Feruchemist, perhaps you could Forge a previously existing Metalborn into another kind.

Being an aluminum or duralumin gnat would actually be useful, as you could repurpose their higher level of Investiture into being whatever power you wanted.

Or, you could pull an even more broken hack and Forge any Twinborn into being a combination of your choosing, like, oh, I don't know, a Compounder? Honestly, it shouldn't even be that hard based on what we know of the magic system's interactions.

But wait, there's more; what if you rewrote a Twinborn with the powers of a Soulbearer Ferring so they could save their temporary Allomantic powers, you could possibly bypass any Identity interference. If you can Tap your ability to Store other powers as well, you could then save all your temporary Feruchemical powers as well, recreating the BoM.

Edited by Trusk'our
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1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

I've been thinking about this WoB and a few of its implications:

  Hide contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/364-the-great-american-read-other-worlds-with-brandon-sanderson/#e11388

Questioner

Soul Forging. Emperor's Soul. If one created the stamp properly, could you, using it, say, Windrunner you stamp, rewrote past to be Lightweaver. Possible?

Brandon Sanderson

That is possible and a little easier than a lot of other things. It's gonna run into problems... in that the Oaths are gonna be hard to align.

Questioner

Probably require some very fine crafting on the stamp.

Brandon Sanderson

Very fine crafting on the stamp. And there are certain people that they're just gonna have a hard time fitting into certain Orders. This is a lot easier though than just taking a random person and making them into one, because you're gonna already have Investiture that they've got.

Questioner

And have the basis of the First Oath.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. So this is not as hard as it might at first sound. It's the sort of thing that people in the cosmere are looking at. Like, being able to transfer magics between-- and things like that is one of very much interest in the cosmere.

So, instead of trying to Forge just any Scadrien into being an Allomancer or Feruchemist, perhaps you could Forge a previously existing Metalborn into another kind.

Being an aluminum or duralumin gnat would actually be useful, as you could repurpose their higher level of Investiture into being whatever power you wanted.

Or, you could pull an even more broken hack and Forge any Twinborn into being a combination of your choosing, like, oh, I don't know, a Compounder? Honestly, it shouldn't even be that hard based on what we know of the magic system's interactions.

But wait, there's more; what if you rewrote a Twinborn with the powers of a Soulbearer Ferring so they could save their temporary Allomantic powers, you could possibly bypass any Identity interference. If you can Tap your ability to Store other powers as well, you could then save all your temporary Feruchemical powers as well, recreating the BoM.

Holy hell...yeah, any twin-born who was friends with (or themselves) a master of forgery should absolutely be able to craft a full functional reproduction of the bands of mourning. That makes perfect sense. Filling them would be kind of tedious and expensive still, but they could totally just walk around as their favorite type of compounder and have the other 30 powers sitting on reserve in high quantity. It's not nearly as good as Lord-Ruler-hood, or Godking-hood, but it's the next best thing!

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19 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I've been thinking about this WoB and a few of its implications:

  Hide contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/364-the-great-american-read-other-worlds-with-brandon-sanderson/#e11388

Questioner

Soul Forging. Emperor's Soul. If one created the stamp properly, could you, using it, say, Windrunner you stamp, rewrote past to be Lightweaver. Possible?

Brandon Sanderson

That is possible and a little easier than a lot of other things. It's gonna run into problems... in that the Oaths are gonna be hard to align.

Questioner

Probably require some very fine crafting on the stamp.

Brandon Sanderson

Very fine crafting on the stamp. And there are certain people that they're just gonna have a hard time fitting into certain Orders. This is a lot easier though than just taking a random person and making them into one, because you're gonna already have Investiture that they've got.

Questioner

And have the basis of the First Oath.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. So this is not as hard as it might at first sound. It's the sort of thing that people in the cosmere are looking at. Like, being able to transfer magics between-- and things like that is one of very much interest in the cosmere.

So, instead of trying to Forge just any Scadrien into being an Allomancer or Feruchemist, perhaps you could Forge a previously existing Metalborn into another kind.

Being an aluminum or duralumin gnat would actually be useful, as you could repurpose their higher level of Investiture into being whatever power you wanted.

Or, you could pull an even more broken hack and Forge any Twinborn into being a combination of your choosing, like, oh, I don't know, a Compounder? Honestly, it shouldn't even be that hard based on what we know of the magic system's interactions.

Another theory of yours in which I don’t see any flaws. Yup, this certainly can work and it would be much easier than making a random person into a full Mistborn. It seems like you won’t have to provide additional external investiture to make you into a Metalborn as you already have it, you just rewrite it to do something else (per this WoB). Nice.

19 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

But wait, there's more; what if you rewrote a Twinborn with the powers of a Soulbearer Ferring so they could save their temporary Allomantic powers, you could possibly bypass any Identity interference. If you can Tap your ability to Store other powers as well, you could then save all your temporary Feruchemical powers as well, recreating the BoM.

That’s a lot. I don’t know if that would work, it may be that because it’s a Forged piece of your soul, the Forgery would collapse as soon as you try to interact with it using other invested arts - like storing it in a nicrosilmind. Just like burning a Forged metal collapses the Forgery, because it disrupts its Spiritual nature. But unlike in burning, you don’t really destroy that piece of a soul, you just story it so it might work.

However based on that WoB I think compounding the stored Forged powers in Nicrosilmind is out of the question because you stored Forged pieces of your soul there and burning them Allomantically would for sure collapse the Forgery, just like when you burn a Forged metal. It would be very hard to utilize Forgery to create another Bands of Mourning as you can't compound nicrosil (you can other metals), so you are forced to store all your Forged powers in real time. Just to have stored a day with each power, you have to store them for a mouth, everyday with each power. If you want to tap nicrosil with diminishing returns, you will burn through that day in the matters of minutes.

Spoiler

Questioner

I wanted to know if Forged metals had Allomantic properties.

Brandon Sanderson

If Forged metals had Allomantic properties. So what I’ve kind of been ruling on this is if you Forge a metal from one metal to another you can probably start burning it Allomantically but it--  Once you did it would disrupt the Spiritual nature of the metal and it would change back immediately.

Shadows of Self Lansing signing (Oct. 13, 2015)
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On 5/31/2024 at 6:31 PM, Trusk'our said:

if you rewrote a Twinborn with the powers of a Soulbearer Ferring so they could save their temporary Allomantic powers, you could possibly bypass any Identity interference

 

I love your idea of Forging Metallic Arts a person already possesses into other types and IMHO it should be very doable.

But since Forging is pretty much based on changing Identity, it probably wouldn't provide a workaround for the problem of interference. Not by itself. But once feruchemical aluminium medallions exist... or if you are prepared to use a respective spike, then yes, a Twinborn should be able to do what you suggest. Though spikes may interfere with Forging. Moonlight doesn't have any, after all.

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On 5/31/2024 at 11:38 AM, hwiles said:

Holy hell...yeah, any twin-born who was friends with (or themselves) a master of forgery should absolutely be able to craft a full functional reproduction of the bands of mourning. That makes perfect sense. Filling them would be kind of tedious and expensive still, but they could totally just walk around as their favorite type of compounder and have the other 30 powers sitting on reserve in high quantity. It's not nearly as good as Lord-Ruler-hood, or Godking-hood, but it's the next best thing!

Oh yeah, it could be pretty OP, especially considering how little Investiture is actually required to fuel Forgery in the first place.

As for needing to Store them with no Compounding though, I'm not sure about that. If you manage to get a BoM style Metalmind, couldn't you just use its own powers to Compound?

On 6/1/2024 at 6:20 AM, alder24 said:

Another theory of yours in which I don’t see any flaws. Yup, this certainly can work and it would be much easier than making a random person into a full Mistborn. It seems like you won’t have to provide additional external investiture to make you into a Metalborn as you already have it, you just rewrite it to do something else (per this WoB). Nice.

Thanks! That means a lot :D

On 6/1/2024 at 6:20 AM, alder24 said:

That’s a lot. I don’t know if that would work, it may be that because it’s a Forged piece of your soul, the Forgery would collapse as soon as you try to interact with it using other invested arts - like storing it in a nicrosilmind. Just like burning a Forged metal collapses the Forgery, because it disrupts its Spiritual nature. But unlike in burning, you don’t really destroy that piece of a soul, you just story it so it might work.

Hmm, maybe if you Stored only at like 5-15% it would be too small a disruption to prevent Storage of Forged powers? Definitely less efficient overall, but still useful. 

On 6/1/2024 at 6:20 AM, alder24 said:

However based on that WoB I think compounding the stored Forged powers in Nicrosilmind is out of the question because you stored Forged pieces of your soul there and burning them Allomantically would for sure collapse the Forgery, just like when you burn a Forged metal.

I don't know about that. Once the power is Stored, it's no longer part of the Forgery, it's now its own thing. I don't think that it would collapse due to Compounding if you can get it to that point.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

I love your idea of Forging Metallic Arts a person already possesses into other types and IMHO it should be very doable.

Thank you! :)

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

But since Forging is pretty much based on changing Identity, it probably wouldn't provide a workaround for the problem of interference. Not by itself. But once feruchemical aluminium medallions exist... or if you are prepared to use a respective spike, then yes, a Twinborn should be able to do what you suggest. Though spikes may interfere with Forging. Moonlight doesn't have any, after all.

Yeah, if you change your Identity when you stamp yourself to get a different power, that would really require some external Identity Blanking to work in creating Unsealed Metalminds. 

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6 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I don't know about that. Once the power is Stored, it's no longer part of the Forgery, it's now its own thing. I don't think that it would collapse due to Compounding if you can get it to that point.

But what you are trying to Store is Forgery, which you are trying to manipulate and interfere with (by Storing and then Burning), both of which Forgery is explicitly sensitive to.

You are effectively trying to store a fake part of Spiritweb, without disrupting it, which sounds damn near impossible to me.

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