Why don't Scadrian god-metals become aware.

[The Stick]

One question I still have on Scadrial is how the lerasium bead near the well, and probably some of the hidden atium in the Trustwarren not come alive. They were sitting for nearly a thousand years or even longer, and we know that god-metal can become self-aware like the Honorblade.

We also know that Odium shattered the Selish Shards early on, but Elantris is also one of the earliest stories chronologically, which would be a relatively decent sized time gap. 

Is there any information on how long it takes Investiture to become self-aware on its own.

[Quantus he/him]

The closest comparison for how long it actually takes Investiture to gain sentience simply by leaving it alone is to remind us that Matter will technically gain sentience if left alone long enough.  So literally astronomic timescales.  

Separately, Godmetals are the least versatile and the most settled of the States of Pure Investiture, so they're likely to be the last form to do so, compared to the Shardpools or even the Mists.  

And also, those Godmetals were still very much Connected to an active Shard/Shardic Vessel, so they probably dont qualify as being Left Alone, as compared to things like the Dor (even Honor's Investiture is being more actively managed via the Stormfather, other spren, and possibly the bondsmiths).  

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, The Stick said:

we know that god-metal can become self-aware like the Honorblade

Not entirely accurate. Splinters can become self aware. Honor made the Honorblades to be Splinters with some Sapience (but not Sentience - unlike Radiant Spren). Godmetal beads are not Splinters - they are simply power of Ruin and Preservation in the Physical Realm in a Solid Matter state (as opposed to the Mists - Gaseous Matter, and Ruin's Smoke (WoA Ch 58 - Gaseous Investiture), etc. 

Also compare the Raysium Daggers which (to our knowledge) are also not Splinters, and not Self-aware (since Raboniel believes she can reconstruct the one she blew up if they can find enough Raysium fragments - RoW Ch 97). 

Spoiler

“No remnants of the dagger,” Raboniel said. “Another embarrassment I must suffer, losing such a valuable weapon. I have others, but I’ll need to eventually move you out of this room and have it scrubbed for every scrap of raysium. We might be able to melt it down and reforge the dagger.”

Also note that Avatars can gain Self-awareness and personality, but not true independance - which is one of the primary differences between a Splinter and an Avatar - one is separared from the Shard and the other is not (even if they think they are). 

Spoiler

Quote

Oversleep

Okay now I have one about Shard avatars, like Autonomy's. Is it possible for one to form without the Shard's Vessel directly making it, so independent...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it is. They would be aware of it, however. They couldn't not be aware of it, but it could arise without their direct and conscious decision to do so.

Oversleep

And the one on First of the Sun, is it by Autonomy's direct...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is directly created.

Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)

Quote

emailanimal

[Brandon] must have had enough of chuckles every time someone referred to Bavadin as a "he" over the past few years.....

Brandon Sanderson

Bavadin has several male personas, and has often appeared as male for one purpose or another, so it's not that much of an issue. She has more female personas, but some of the male ones are quite popular.

This won't be relevant for a long while, but as a service to the community, let me say this: try not to get too hung up on gender, race, or even human appearance where Bavadin is concerned. There are some peoples who worship entire pantheons where every member is actually her.

Argent

There are some peoples who worship entire pantheons where every member is actually her.

I think that's hilarious.

I've been meaning to ask a similar question for a few days now, I am glad someone else did and you replied. Bavadin is now instantly super interesting to me!

Brandon Sanderson

Bavadin is awesome. One regret of finally moving on from White Sand (and doing the graphic novel, instead of doing an entire trilogy myself) is because I won't get to show her off as a character for a while. It should still happen, mind you, but I have enough on my plate right now that I just can't do it all.

Argent

Eh, it's alright. The more we wait to see her, the more practice writing you will have when you do write her, and the more awesome she will be to us Are we going to see her in White Sand first though, or elsewhere?

I've also been talking with a couple of friends about Ambition, who happens to be a Shard I love unconditionally just because of his?her? mandate. So I should ask - how tight-lipped do you intend to be with information about it? Can we prod for a little bit of trivia, or is it too early for that?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm going to be pretty tight-lipped for now. Let's at least let White Sand finish first--you will find her in there, though her touch on the story (directly) is light. She prefers to allow her personas to become the focus of attention.

General Reddit 2016 (Nov. 28, 2016)

Note: This WoB uses "persona" because it was before Brandon made the term Avatar Canon. . .

 

[alder24]

3 hours ago, The Stick said:

One question I still have on Scadrial is how the lerasium bead near the well, and probably some of the hidden atium in the Trustwarren not come alive. They were sitting for nearly a thousand years or even longer, and we know that god-metal can become self-aware like the Honorblade.

We also know that Odium shattered the Selish Shards early on, but Elantris is also one of the earliest stories chronologically, which would be a relatively decent sized time gap. 

Is there any information on how long it takes Investiture to become self-aware on its own.

It takes a loooong time. Not a time you should be worried about. The more investiture there is, the closer it will become to a human level intelligence. But that still takes thousands of years to happen.

Lerasium and Atium on Scadrial are part of Shards who both have a Vessel each - they had minds, they weren't left alone. They were physical bodies of existing Shards. Dor was specifically forced into CR to prevent it from gaining sentience. We only know from AU that the Selish land itself shows signs of gaining sentience, but what it means it's unknown. It might have been an Avatar that Autonomy manifested, similar to Patji on the First of the Sun. 

Here are WoBs I found about this topic for you:

Spoiler

Argent

You've said that Investiture tends to develop sapience on its own. Is this a function of the amount of Investiture alone (i.e. any pile of Investiture large enough will develop sapience eventually), or does the process require extra effort (e.g. a Command from an Awakener, an action by a Shard, etc.)?

Brandon Sanderson

Under the right circumstances, a pile of investiture will eventually become self-aware. But there is no specific timing. The more investiture clumped together, the more likely--and the closer to human-level intelligence it is likely to obtain.

Of course, if you leave matter alone long enough (on a galactic scale) it will eventually end up becoming sapient too. So this isn't that different. (Well, okay, it is.)

Boogalyhu34

Are humans already sapient and intelligent because their Spiritual DNA tell their innate investiture what connections to make or what weird soul pattern to go into.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's RAFO that for now.

Stormlight Three Update #4 (Oct. 4, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

If someone were to create a human shape, with full articulations, made out of the four Feruchemical Spiritual metals and copper and do like a full dump into them, would it be able to-- I mean, Investiture attains sapience on its own. And then with-- If those were mixed with the memories in the copper would it be able to effectively become an android of the person who created it?

Brandon Sanderson

So we got a couple of issues you have to overcome in creating this. Number one, the memories are not going to attune to the Investiture itself, they're going to be attuned to you. The Investiture as it attains sapience is gonna create its own Identity, which is then going to be a mismatch for those memories. So you would have to find a way to get those memories to work for that creation.

Questioner

It wouldn't tie with the Identity that was stored in the aluminum?

Brandon Sanderson

No, it would not... The other thing you were getting at there though, is that just Investing it alone, you would have to leave it alone for a long time, naturally, for it to start developing anything. And so we're looking at thousands of years, probably. There are ways to speed that process along, but just doing that and leaving it, it's gonna take a while.

Skyward San Diego signing (Nov. 7, 2018)

 

Spoiler

PrinceofMagnets

What is Cosmere sentience? By this I mean what does it require and what does it entail?

Brandon Sanderson

In the cosmere, most things are sentient on some level. Basically, anything with even the smallest amount of investiture. (Which is all matter, and most cognitive creations.) Sapience is something different, of course.

/r/books AMA 2015 (May 16, 2015)

 

Spoiler

[...]

Brandon Sanderson

[...]

So on Sel, we have AonDor. AonDor is based on the fact that the Dor, which is an amalgamation of Dominion and Devotion, has been pressed together and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm by Odium who didn't want it to gain sentience, as Investiture will do if it is left alone. It will either seek someone to be its Vessel or it will gain sentience. He pressed it in there; he pressed it together, which creates the violent reaction, because those two intents are opposed. [...]

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Would it be possible for an inanimate object that was invested to the point of sentience Ascend to Shardhood?

Brandon Sanderson

To become a Vessel of Adonalsium, or become a Shard through...? This is a tricky question because the power left alone will become sapient. And at that point, the distinction between being a Shard and a Vessel is fine but still extant. And I would say the power could not become a Vessel in the same way because it's defined as something different. But it is possible for the power to be left alone and to gain sapience on its own.

Questioner

The example we were thinking of was Sel. It was stated in Arcanum that the landscape itself was invested to the point of.. Could the planet of Sel be the Vessel of Devotion?

Brandon Sanderson

At this point, it's playing semantics, and I would say no. But there are people in-Cosmere that would argue that the semantic distinction is irrelevant and that it is the same.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Shards. Is it possible for them to think outside-- without having a person they're working through?

Brandon Sanderson

The power left alone around people will eventually gain a kind of sentience.

Questioner

Kind of like the Stormfather?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. So it is possible. It doesn't always happen, and sometimes it takes a while. For example, the Dor? Basic, rudimentary, feeling only. It's not-- you know.

Firefight Miami signing (Jan. 8, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Shards. Is it possible for them to think outside-- without having a person they're working through?

Brandon Sanderson

The power left alone around people will eventually gain a kind of sentience.

Questioner

Kind of like the Stormfather?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. So it is possible. It doesn't always happen, and sometimes it takes a while. For example, the Dor? Basic, rudimentary, feeling only. It's not-- you know.

Firefight Miami signing (Jan. 8, 2015)

 

[The Stick]

I would argue that both the Lerasium and Atium would qualify as being left alone, because Ruin was imprisoned and couldn't locate the Atium, and Leras was essentially in a comatose state. I guess the issues is with how long the metals were left alone.

[Leuthie]

Who says the Well wasn't sapient? 

[Argenti he/him]

16 hours ago, The Stick said:

I would argue that both the Lerasium and Atium would qualify as being left alone, because Ruin was imprisoned and couldn't locate the Atium, and Leras was essentially in a comatose state. I guess the issues is with how long the metals were left alone.

Not really. Leras was dying, but he was not dead. Ati was imprisoned but not silent. Remember, both still influenced the world while imprisoned or dying. The shards had vessels, even if they were not at their highest capacity. 

[Treamayne]

 

3 hours ago, Argenti said:

20 hours ago, The Stick said:

I would argue that both the Lerasium and Atium would qualify as being left alone, because Ruin was imprisoned and couldn't locate the Atium, and Leras was essentially in a comatose state. I guess the issues is with how long the metals were left alone.

Not really. Leras was dying, but he was not dead. Ati was imprisoned but not silent. Remember, both still influenced the world while imprisoned or dying. The shards had vessels, even if they were not at their highest capacity. 

And, more specifically, they were not Splintered. Spren are self-aware Splinters, Seons and Skaze are Self-Aware Splinters. Honorblades are Self-Aware Splinters. A bead of Atium or Lerasium is not a Splinter, it's just a portion of investiture in a Physical Solid State. Purified Dor is not a Splinter, just a fragment of investiture in a Physical Liquid State.

Being without a Vessel (left alone) is only part of the equation, the piece of investiture has to be Separate first, then being without a Vessel matters. 

18 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Who says the Well wasn't sapient? 

Brandon. It's pretty much the definition of Perpendicularities.  HoA (Epigraphs and Epilogue):

Spoiler

Therefore, it was attuned to the power of Preservation—the very power of the Well. 

He managed to orchestrate the downfall of the Lord Ruler only a short time before Preservation's power returned to the Well of Ascension. And then, within a few years of that event, he had freed himself.

Looking back, we should have been able to see the connection between the mists, Allomancy, and the power at the Well of Ascension.

Nobody else could draw upon the mists. I have determined this. Why were they open to Vin and not others? I suspect that she couldn't have taken them all in until after she'd touched the power at the Well of Ascension. It was always meant, I believe, to be something of an attuning force. 

WoBs:

Quote

Dalenthas

Does the Well of Ascension still exist in the new world? Or is it no longer necessary? I assumed that Preservation collected there like Ruin collects in the Pits of Hathsin, so if Atium keeps forming then the well should keep filling...

Brandon Sanderson

The Well (and the small wells in the Pits) is no more. For now at least.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Seventy-Nine

The Mists Chose Someone

There's a lot more going on behind the scenes than even the author of these epigraphs knows. Reasons why Vin was chosen, and why the power of Preservation needed a new mind to control it.

The author is right in that Preservation did need someone to control its power, and it did seek for a host in which to invest itself. It began this search with what mind it had left about sixteen years before the return of the power to the Well of Ascension, just as it began a search for a new host before the return of the power the previous time.

Unfortunately, just as Ruin took control and manipulated Alendi, he took control and manipulated Vin.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (May 13, 2010)

 

Had new Vessels not taken Preservation after Leras' true death, and Ruin not Splintered Preservation while there was no Vessel, then Preservation might have gained Self-Awareness with enough time. But the Well was not separate from Preservation, just a collection of Preservation's Invesiture. 

Edited May 16 by Treamayne
SPAG/References

[Argenti he/him]

On 5/16/2024 at 10:31 AM, Treamayne said:

And, more specifically, they were not Splintered. Spren are self-aware Splinters, Seons and Skaze are Self-Aware Splinters. Honorblades are Self-Aware Splinters. A bead of Atium or Lerasium is not a Splinter, it's just a portion of investiture in a Physical Solid State. Purified Dor is not a Splinter, just a fragment of investiture in a Physical Liquid State.

That's the word I was looking for! Been to long since I read everything....