Brutes and Different Types of Muscles

[Trusk'our he/him]

I've been trying to get healthier and more fit recently, and have done some research on muscle building.

One thing that stuck out to me was the fact that you can deliberately train for more raw strength but without bulking up significantly, creating a "sleeper build" of sorts.

Basically, I'm thinking that if a Brute were to build up more muscle density, they could benefit more from it when Tapping as their muscles would put on less overall bulk, but get a comparable amount of strength. 

Thoughts?

[Quantus he/him]

Most cosmere magics respond to Intent and were built to advance with scientific understanding, so I do believe they could make more targeted storage/tapping combos like that.  I can foresee two limits, though.  For one, they'd still be limited to humans style muscles and probably wouldnt be able to match the muscle density performance of the great apes, for example.  On the other hand Feruchemy is typically less customizable outside what the person native gets, so its possible that they might only be able to store and tap muscle at the density they naturally possess, so they'd need to do some amount of the appropriate muscle training first before being able tap for a denser musculature, and then might not be able to go back to a fluffy Beach-muscle body.  

[strmblsd he/him]

o this got me thinking. if a feruchemist brute was extremely muscular without tapping if they filled their metalmind could they fill it more quickly than someone who isnt as strong normally?

[Trusk'our he/him]

6 minutes ago, strmblsd said:

o this got me thinking. if a feruchemist brute was extremely muscular without tapping if they filled their metalmind could they fill it more quickly than someone who isnt as strong normally?

Oh, certainly they could; the amount of attribute Stored is directly proportional to the amount that you start with, so more muscle to Store = more attribute to Tap.

Another example of this would be to have a 100 lbs. Skimmer and a 200 lbs. Skimmer Storing 30% of their weight. The heavier Skimmer simply Stores more at that percentage as it equals more total Investiture.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

17 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Oh, certainly they could; the amount of attribute Stored is directly proportional to the amount that you start with, so more muscle to Store = more attribute to Tap.

Another example of this would be to have a 100 lbs. Skimmer and a 200 lbs. Skimmer Storing 30% of their weight. The heavier Skimmer simply Stores more at that percentage as it equals more total Investiture.

Personally, I believe this is the change in muscle that A pewter effects. Hence the ability for it to store better. 

Although thinking about the difference in storing weight... if Wax weighs 200lbs he can store over 6 million lbs in a day vs a 100lbs storing the same % and having far less potential effect.  I wonder if the iron metalminds get filled twice as far or if their storage is based on the % of an attribute stored more than the actual attribute itself?  

Would A pewter store twice the strength into a metalmind or is there a numerical value there?  If you can bench 200lbs and wanted to store half your strength it would just be storing the ability to bench 100lbs. If you burn pewter and can normally bench 400-600lbs with the same physique (an increase of 200-400 additional lbs), and wanted to just store the a pewter strength would it store as you doubling or tripling any lift from there or would it store as you being able to bench another 200-400lbs?  

I assume a pewter strength has to be stored on a separate metalmind. When tapping it in conjunction with a typical pewtermind how does it work?   

Say I am tapping 100% additional strength so I can now bench 400 and then I tap my A pewter storage.  Am I able to bench 600-800 (the 400 from myself and the pewtermind plus the ability to lift an additional 200-400lbs from stored a pewter) or am I able to bench 800-1200 (the 400 from myself and the pewtermind plus the ability to lift an additional 2-3x from A pewter).  

This becomes more insane when you actually burn pewter as well. Say flare it for 3x more gain. Is it just an additional 600lbs from that base 200lb bench for a total of 1200-1400lbs? Or is it going to multiply my power by 3 from what it is? Allowing a 2400-3600lbs? 

 

Either way I can easily see how a pewter compounder utilizing different muscle types of storage could toss someone in some magical armor weighing 1400lbs.  

[Trusk'our he/him]

34 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Although thinking about the difference in storing weight... if Wax weighs 200lbs he can store over 6 million lbs in a day vs a 100lbs storing the same % and having far less potential effect.  I wonder if the iron metalminds get filled twice as far or if their storage is based on the % of an attribute stored more than the actual attribute itself?  

The rate at which you Store does not affect the amount of a charge a Metalmind can hold, it's purely about the amount of Investiture;

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153/#e2802

Lance Alvein (paraphrased)

Does the rate of Feruchemical storage of an attribute affect the total amount stored in a metalmind?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It was not intended to be.

 

39 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Personally, I believe this is the change in muscle that A pewter effects. Hence the ability for it to store better. 

Are you talking about the A-pewter/F-pewter hack? I think it has to do more with the idea that you can Store strength in a Pewtermind, but because the strength gained via Allomancy is purely magical in nature you get a magical boost when you Tap it.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

29 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

The rate at which you Store does not affect the amount of a charge a Metalmind can hold, it's purely about the amount of Investiture;

  Hide contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153/#e2802

Lance Alvein (paraphrased)

Does the rate of Feruchemical storage of an attribute affect the total amount stored in a metalmind?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It was not intended to be.

 

Are you talking about the A-pewter/F-pewter hack? I think it has to do more with the idea that you can Store strength in a Pewtermind, but because the strength gained via Allomancy is purely magical in nature you get a magical boost when you Tap it.

I think I always assumed that you were storing the strength itself. Which comes with no size increase. The only real WoB I can find about it says compounding is easier but you can't escape a need for hypertrophy with normal feeuchemical strength tapped at bonkers levels. If you want to toss a big 1400lb armored opponent I think you will be facing an increase in mass no matter your body composition through feruchemy alone, even compounded.  

The benefit to storing pewter would really shine for that lack of mass gain altogether. Although I don't know how it would happen. There is a difference between storing the strength gained by pewter and the strength of the pewter.  I speculate that the magical enhancement to strength from pewter would need to be stored in a separate metalmind just like different senses and connections etc. 

I do, however, agree with your original premise of this topic.  I am sure that if your muscles were trained in a manner to focus on strength gain with minimal hypertrophic effects you would also have less % mass increase with strength gain. We don't really know how strong Sazed was as he was jacked nearly to the point of immobility. But any training to allow your muscles to maximize their efforts would help in this regard.  

If you want an interesting comparison then you should check out the lb for lb deadlift world record vs the world record for what was simply the heaviest deadlift.  Eventually I think mass is a must no matter what.

The other thing I find interesting about F pewter is that it is insanely dependent on the frame of the user how much max usage you can get.  

[Trusk'our he/him]

3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I think I always assumed that you were storing the strength itself. Which comes with no size increase.

Of course; Compounding just gives you more of F-pewter's fuel, but Storing the actual strength boost of A-pewter shouldn't. 

3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

 If you want an interesting comparison then you should check out the lb for lb deadlift world record vs the world record for what was simply the heaviest deadlift.  Eventually I think mass is a must no matter what.

Oh definitely. Even if you can get a denser muscle composition via training, you'll always need more mass overall, it's mostly just a matter of how much bulk you'd gain for the strength you needed.

3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

The other thing I find interesting about F pewter is that it is insanely dependent on the frame of the user how much max usage you can get.  

Yeah, a 5' Brute is going to be very limited in their overall Feruchemical potential- I mean, could you imagine the difficulty Vin would have if Sazed ever figured out how to use aluminum to make Unkeyed, Burnable Pewterminds? 

 

Edited March 20 by Trusk'our

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

Something I'm thinking about is the stupid good synergy between F-Pewter and H-Iron.

Need more muscle? Just stab some guy then yourself.

I've been thinking about it and, if you can store more than 100% of an attribute, then shouldn't that affect the Compression/Diminishing Returns of tapping higher multipliers from your metalminds? Like say a Brute has 1 Iron Spike, granting them nearly double their normal strength, then they store away all that additional strength plus some of their own, at say 120% filling rate, you should be able to tap it at 120% for an equal amount of time correct? Which would mean you could tap at, say, 240% for just a little under half of the storing time, and so on. Which sounds really stupidly good.

I'm now wondering if F-Pewter could help mitigate the negative effects of Iron Hemalurgy, like if you had a Brute Koloss (isn't that a scary thought) and they stored all the additional strength, would they be able to reclaim some of their humanity? Since they'd essentially be storing all the additional Investiture that the spikes are granting.

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 3/20/2024 at 7:50 PM, JustQuestin2004 said:

Something I'm thinking about is the stupid good synergy between F-Pewter and H-Iron.

There could be some very interesting synergies here.

First off, it seems all attribute spikes grant you magical boosts (such as we see with Kandra Blessings and small Koloss that are unreasonably strong for their size). Those can probably be harnessed by Feruchemy, similar to the A-pewter hack.

Second, a Koloss also grows more muscle mass as they age, hulking up dramatically (and yes, I believe this is an addition to the magical boost, otherwise it would be immediately present after their transformation), which can also be harnessed via pewter Feruchemy.

Now, I don't know if a Koloss Brute needs all that extra strength, but they would have loads of the stuff.

Perhaps it could be useful for Unkeyed Pewterminds?

On 3/20/2024 at 7:50 PM, JustQuestin2004 said:

I've been thinking about it and, if you can store more than 100% of an attribute, then shouldn't that affect the Compression/Diminishing Returns of tapping higher multipliers from your metalminds? Like say a Brute has 1 Iron Spike, granting them nearly double their normal strength, then they store away all that additional strength plus some of their own, at say 120% filling rate, you should be able to tap it at 120% for an equal amount of time correct? Which would mean you could tap at, say, 240% for just a little under half of the storing time, and so on. Which sounds really stupidly good.

I don't think that's how Feruchemical compression works; it makes far more sense if it's based on total Investiture- attributes- Tapped at a given rate.

So, for instance, if two Brutes Tap 100lbs worth of strength, but their natural strength varies (say, one can bench press 100lbs and the other 150lbs), there isn't going to be a difference in Tapping rate even though the percentages vary because the amount of Investiture used is the same.

Still, having more strength to Tap from a Pewtermind makes them a lot more effective, especially since most of it would be a magical boost and wouldn't bulk you up.

On 3/20/2024 at 7:50 PM, JustQuestin2004 said:

I'm now wondering if F-Pewter could help mitigate the negative effects of Iron Hemalurgy, like if you had a Brute Koloss (isn't that a scary thought) and they stored all the additional strength, would they be able to reclaim some of their humanity? Since they'd essentially be storing all the additional Investiture that the spikes are granting.

I don't think that this would work, unfortunately; F-Pewter specifically Stores muscle mass, not the other possible affects of Investiture, such as speed or endurance from A-pewter or the Spiritweb alterations made by H-iron. 

And that's the other thing; even one Iron spike is going to warp your anatomy, which isn't good in a lot of cases. I'm sure there are ways to bypass or mitigate this, but I don’t think they'd be super simple to achieve, not without som SR hacks at least.

Overall though, good ideas for synergy.

Edited March 23 by Trusk'our
Fixed minor spelling mistakes.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

15 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

There could be some very interesting synergies here.

First off, ot seems all attribute spikes grant you magical boosts (such as we see with Kandra Blessings and small Koloss that are unreasonably strong for their size). Those can probably be harnessed by Feruchemy, similar to the A-pewter hack.

Second, a Koloss also grows more muscle mass as they age, hulking up dramatically (and yes, I believe this is an addition to the magical boost, otherwise it would be immediately present after their transformation), which can also be harnessed via pewter Feruchemy.

Now, I don't know if a Koloss Brute needs all that extra strength, but they would have loads of the stuff.

Perhaps it could be useful for Unkeyed Pewterminds?

You know, I didn't really think that the boost in strength from H-Iron was also partially magical like A-Pewter, I kind of thought it was just like F-Pewter, pure musclemass. With the Kandra's weird body having them not be twisted as much as a Koloss, who are on average twice the size of humans.

16 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I don't think that's how Feruchemical compression works; it makes far more sense if it's based on total Investiture- attributes- Tapped at a given rate.

So, for instance, if two Brutes Tap 100lbs worth of strength, but their natural strength varies (say, one can bench press 100lbs and the other 150lbs), there isn't going to be a difference in Tapping rate even though the percentages vary because the amount of Investiture used is the same.

Still, having more strength to Tap from a Pewtermind makes them a lot more effective, especially since most of it would be a magical boost and wouldn't bulk you up.

I see, so you can't go over 100%, just raising the baseline. So that a Koloss's baseline strength is higher than a human's. Thanks for that insight, I was thinking of it the wrong way.

 

18 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

don't think that this would work, unfortunately; F-Pewter specifically Stores muscle mass, not the other possible affects of Investiture, such as speed or endurance from A-pewter or the Spiritweb alterations made by H-iron. 

And that's the other thing; even one Iron spike is going to warp your anatomy, which isn't good in a lot of cases. I'm sure there are ways to bypass or mitigate this, but I don’t think they'd be super simple to achieve, not without som SR hacks at least.

Overall though, good ideas for synergy.

A shame about that, though it would make sense, F-Pewter is purely physical and Hemalurgic Spikes are Spiritual in nature. Though maybe F-Nicrosil? I dunno.

I do kind of wished we saw what happens if a normal person had 1-3 Iron Spikes and what that would look like. Would they just bulk up? Would they get extra skin and grow? Would their skin turn blue? So many questions.

[Trusk'our he/him]

3 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

You know, I didn't really think that the boost in strength from H-Iron was also partially magical like A-Pewter, I kind of thought it was just like F-Pewter, pure musclemass. With the Kandra's weird body having them not be twisted as much as a Koloss, who are on average twice the size of humans.

Yeah, it's a bit weird, but I like to think of it this way; the attributes magical boost is the primary purpose of the spikes, but the extra Spiritweb bits (or possibly just warped Investiture) cause physical changes in the Spiritweb, kind of like if you were to mash extra code into a computer program. 

And that's why Bindpoint placement matters; you're taking  spiritual "code" and splicing it within the code that already exists, so where you put it changes a lot.

8 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

I see, so you can't go over 100%, just raising the baseline. So that a Koloss's baseline strength is higher than a human's. Thanks for that insight, I was thinking of it the wrong way.

Yup.

You can certainly Store more with a higher base strength- which means you can Tap more- but the percentage of your Storage is just there as a number to give you a general idea of the Investiture used, it's not actually the deciding factor of Feruchemical compression loss.

12 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

A shame about that, though it would make sense, F-Pewter is purely physical and Hemalurgic Spikes are Spiritual in nature. Though maybe F-Nicrosil? I dunno.

Maybe. It's probably closer to pulling it off, but nicrosil works with powers, not attributes. 

If you could differentiate the Investiture of the Spikes and your own Spiritweb, maybe it could be done, but there are probably easier methods. 

For example: Warbreaker spoilers-

Spoiler

A Returned can learn to suppress their Divine Breath, yet they still gain some perks from it such as augmented speed and strength. 

An advanced Hemalurgic Command on an iron spike could possibly allow you to do something similar, mitigating or fully suppressing alterations (and most perks) of bearing the spike.

Then you could be a Hemalurgic construct when you wanted, but change back when it no longer suited you, werewolf style.

 

18 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

I do kind of wished we saw what happens if a normal person had 1-3 Iron Spikes and what that would look like. Would they just bulk up? Would they get extra skin and grow? Would their skin turn blue? So many questions.

It's probably going to depend on the Spiritweb fragments contained in the spikes and the Bindpoint placement. 

F-Chromium and/or A-electrum + duralumin could help with discovering that I'm sure.