Half-Shard Discussion

[YouKnowYuno he/him]

1. do the half shards actually work?

2 can a radiant create a half shard at will?

3. etc. etc. anything half-shard related 

[Argenti he/him]

Half shards are Fabrial, so no, a radiant couldn't make one, it's an Augmenterwa Fabrials, so it strengthens something, presumably tension oor adhesion? 

Edited March 19 by Argenti

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Monkey King said:

1. do the half shards actually work?

2 can a radiant create a half shard at will?

3. etc. etc. anything half-shard related 

1. They are seen working in WoK Interlude 9
2. No - different mechanism (as mentioned by @Argenti
3. See this Coppermind Page

[Quantus he/him]

It depends on what you mean by Create At Will.  Evidence suggests they are using the Tension Surge, so a Radiant with access to that surge can likely accomplish some thing equivalent, since by and large the Radiants get far more flexibility in surge application than the Fabrial versions. But like any other Radiant Surge it would be temporary; they cannot just sit down and start manufacturing piles of actual Half-shard fabrials or anything.  

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Monkey King said:

1. do the half shards actually work?

Yes. They can resist a few hits of a Shardblade before breaking, but they are a Fabrial. Everything invested enough will resist Shardblade.

1 hour ago, Monkey King said:

2 can a radiant create a half shard at will?

All ancient Fabrials are spren manifested in the Physical Realm as devices, so I think if you find and convince the right type of spren to do exactly what modern Half-Shard Fabrial does, you can do that. You probably don't even need to be a Radiant. But Syl won't be a Half-Shard, she can just become a shield that will never break - as long as she is bonded and close to Kaladin. We don't know what type of spren was used in Half-Shards, Taravangian said it's "the one that might have blessed a Radiant," but we don't know what it means or what type of spren is that. OB ch 100:

Quote

“Did you want to see one of these, Dalinar?” he asked after a moment, holding out the shield.
Glad for the distraction, Dalinar took the shield, hefting it. “Half-shard?” he said, noting a steel box—with a gemstone inside—fastened to the inner surface.
“Indeed,” Taravangian said. “Crude devices. There are legends of metal that can block a Shardblade. A metal that falls from the sky. Silver, but somehow lighter. I should like to see that, but for now we can use these.”
Dalinar grunted.
“You know how they make fabrials, don’t you?” Taravangian asked. “Enslaved spren?”
“Spren can’t be ‘enslaved’ any more than a chull can.”
The Stormfather rumbled distantly in his mind.
“That gemstone,” Taravangian said, “imprisons the kind of spren that gives things substance, the kind that holds the world together. We have entrapped in that shield something that, at another time, might have blessed a Knight Radiant.”

RoW ch 46:

Quote

Raboniel hummed a rhythm. “I am a quick learner.” She gestured to the notes on Navani’s desk. “In the past, my kind found it difficult to persuade spren to manifest themselves in the Physical Realm as devices. It seems Voidspren are not as naturally … self-sacrificing as those of Honor or Cultivation.”
Navani blinked as the implications of that sank in. Suddenly a dozen loose threads in her mind tied together, forming a tapestry. An explanation. That was why the fabrials of the tower—the pumps, the climbing mechanisms— didn’t have gemstones with captive spren. Storms … that was the answer to Soulcasting devices.
Awespren burst around her in a ring of blue smoke. Soulcasters didn’t hold spren because they were spren. Manifesting in the Physical Realm like Shardblades. Spren became metal on this side. Somehow the ancient spren had been coaxed into manifesting as Soulcasters instead of Blades?

 

1 hour ago, Monkey King said:

3. etc. etc. anything half-shard related 

Metalminds, Awakened objects, Hemalurgic spikes - all will resist Shardblades for a few hits. So they would be like a Half-Shard. 

Spoiler

Yata

Could a filled (fully feruchemical charge) metalmind block a Shardblade (or at least, resist a bit)?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it could. Excellent question.

/r/books AMA 2015 (Sept. 3, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Shardblades cut organic and inorganic matter differently. How would they interact with an animated construct like an Awakened straw man? What about a Lifeless?

Brandon Sanderson

So I walk kind of a fine line here. Something that's animated as a construct, like an Awakened straw man, is likely going to block the Shardblade to some extent, as powerful Investiture would. A Lifeless is probably just gonna act like it was a living being.

San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Since you have basically established that spren are at least to some extent alive, how is it possible for a Shardblade to not cut right through a living weapon, like Syl for example.

Brandon Sanderson

What you are seeing is: when they are pulling through into the Physical Realm they are creating something that is not 100% physical, not 100% metal, it's like an amalgamation of the two. And that is doing something very special that then prevents other things from cutting through it. It's specifically the way that it's happening. You could make this happen with other things too.

Another big part of it is the amount of Investiture. If something is highly Invested it's going to stop a Shardblade too, because the Investiture is gonna kinda bounce off of each other. It's theoretical, for instance, you could make a Hemalurgic spike that would stop a Shardblade...

So, Invest something highly and it will stop a Shardblade almost always. But, you can cut souls; they are highly Invested also. So you need something in the Physical Realm that is pulling power through from the other Realms.

Bonn Signing (May 15, 2019)

 

[Argenti he/him]

10 minutes ago, alder24 said:

"the one that might have blessed a Radiant," but we don't know what it means or what type of spren is that.

I always assumed that meant what spren stoneward plate is made out of.

[Quantus he/him]

And it might, or Mr. T might not have been cognizant of the difference between sapient radiant spren and the sometimes animal-type lesser spren that can also provide access to some Surges (Gravitation, for example, doesnt require actual Honorspren, even if they are the only sapient race to provide that surge (just because I dont really consider the three Godspren to be a unified race like the others.)

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Argenti said:

I always assumed that meant what spren stoneward plate is made out of.

1 minute ago, Quantus said:

And it might, or Mr. T might not have been cognizant of the difference between sapient radiant spren and the sometimes animal-type lesser spren that can also provide access to some Surges (Gravitation, for example, doesnt require actual Honorspren, even if they are the only sapient race to provide that surge (just because I dont really consider the three Godspren to be a unified race like the others.)

And plate spren don't bless their Radiant? I think it's made vague on purpose by Brandon. I agree, it's most likely some kind of Radiant Lesser Spren, because True Spren aren't really attracted to people in the same way as Lesser Spren, they would have to decide to show up in the Physical Realm and many can hide their presence from people. And I think hundreds of True Spren disappearing without any trace would be quite a big deal in Shadesmar cities. 

It was Taravangian's better day.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

On 3/19/2024 at 9:53 AM, Quantus said:

It depends on what you mean by Create At Will.  Evidence suggests they are using the Tension Surge, so a Radiant with access to that surge can likely accomplish some thing equivalent, since by and large the Radiants get far more flexibility in surge application than the Fabrial versions. But like any other Radiant Surge it would be temporary; they cannot just sit down and start manufacturing piles of actual Half-shard fabrials or anything.  

With the exception of lightweavers and else callers.  What is better and far easier to produce than a half shard?  Take a wooden shield and dip it in wax. The wax will not only coat the entire shield but also bind and hold better into the tiny textured grain of the wood... then soulcast the wax coating into aluminum... 

While at the tower they could make a legit production line of soulcasters who will never run out of stormlight. You could have the entire army outfitted with them in a week. 

[YouKnowYuno he/him]

23 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

With the exception of lightweavers and else callers.  What is better and far easier to produce than a half shard?  Take a wooden shield and dip it in wax. The wax will not only coat the entire shield but also bind and hold better into the tiny textured grain of the wood... then soulcast the wax coating into aluminum... 

While at the tower they could make a legit production line of soulcasters who will never run out of stormlight. You could have the entire army outfitted with them in a week. 

But could the Aluminum stop a shardblade? We've seen some instances (not many) of Shardblades cutting right through it as if it was paper. 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

9 minutes ago, Knight of Eternal Books said:

But could the Aluminum stop a shardblade? We've seen some instances (not many) of Shardblades cutting right through it as if it was paper. 

Depends how thick the aluminum is. The magical cutting of a shardblade is 100% nullified by aluminum. So long as the aluminum is thick enough to not be cut through by the blades edge and weight of the swing then it will resist it indefinitely. 

Hence I vote for a wax coating... or even wax coatings and then soulcast the wax into aluminum.  It is flush against the wood and would offer tremendous support.  Like spraying that flex seal over an egg... even if the egg inside gets destroyed... so long as that same mass exists inside of the sealed portion it should offer the aluminum around it the bones to stay in shape.  You could go straight for a fully aluminum shield but I think a wooden shield with aluminum coating would offer more protection against blunt weapons as well as the shards. 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Knight of Eternal Books said:

But could the Aluminum stop a shardblade? We've seen some instances (not many) of Shardblades cutting right through it as if it was paper. 

When did we see a Shardblade cutting aluminum?? I can't remember at all. Aluminum resists Shardblades - Leshwi’s weapon is made out of aluminum. A thin aluminum foil might be cut by the physical blade of Shardblade but not magical cutting. 

Spoiler

Bridge4AM (paraphrased)

What would happen if you tried to cut aluminum with a shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

A shardblade would not cut aluminum.

Footnote: This contradicts a previous WoB where Brandon said shardblades could cut aluminum. This contradiction is addressed here.
An Evening with Brandon Sanderson (Feb. 1, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Yata

Hi, the community has a [question], we have two WoBs: Shardblades can cut aluminum and Shardblades can't cut it. Which one is true?

Brandon Sanderson (Part 1/Part 2/Part 3)

Hm. Yes, I wondered last night if I'd ever answered this before. Truth is, the answer is contentious at Team Sanderson.

I've been pushing for one answer, but Peter (whom I trust) is pushing back. We will see what ends up in the books as canon.

Problem with magic like I do is sometimes you have to wait for the scientific consensus... Err on "no" for now.

Peter Ahlstrom (Part 1/Part 2/Part 3)

Oh, I think aluminum would stop Shardblades from magical cutting. But if it's too thin like foil, a sword...

...would cut it anyway. What I'm arguing is that something else that Shardblades don't cut doesn't need...

...to necessarily be made of aluminum, for various reasons.

Yata

For example Invested objects (metalmind,spike,etc) or polestones (from some SA's Quote) ?

Peter Ahlstrom

RAFO

Footnote: The two conflicting WoBs can be found here and here. Also the "something else" that Peter was referring to is likely the Shardblade guards, which have since been confirmed to not be aluminum.
General Twitter 2017 (Feb. 3, 2017)

 

[YouKnowYuno he/him]

"It is worth noting that the aluminum only nullifies the supernatural sharpness of the Blade, so a thin sheet of aluminum foil would be sheared through easily by a Blade." the Coppermind - Shardblades

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

3 hours ago, Knight of Eternal Books said:

"It is worth noting that the aluminum only nullifies the supernatural sharpness of the Blade, so a thin sheet of aluminum foil would be sheared through easily by a Blade." the Coppermind - Shardblades

Exactly. No magical cutting power but it is still a sword. Aluminum that is flush with a shield and even exists deep down into the grain of the wood would only need to be a few millimeters thick to do the job. The wooden shield would give it support and structure and it would give the resistance to the magical cutting power. 

[YouKnowYuno he/him]

 

6 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Exactly. No magical cutting power but it is still a sword. Aluminum that is flush with a shield and even exists deep down into the grain of the wood would only need to be a few millimeters thick to do the job. The wooden shield would give it support and structure and it would give the resistance to the magical cutting power. 

there is one thing we haven't taken into account - the shear size and massive weight of the shardblades (dead Blades not Radiant) The blunt force would be enough to severly damage the Half-Shard. and if you combine that with a shardplate than, whether or not the shield as aluminum is almost rendered useless. a few millimeters would do nothing to stop such a power. I will concide tho that an inch would highly likely stop it.

But there is another matter. the wood on the inside. if very heavy object is swung at aluminum coated piece of wood, eventualy the wood on the inside (no matter if it is ingrained within the wood) will shatter and splinter leaving you with an almost hollow shield makeing it easy to dent and destroy.

Edited March 21 by Knight of Eternal Books

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

20 minutes ago, Knight of Eternal Books said:

 

there is one thing we haven't taken into account - the shear size and massive weight of the shardblades (dead Blades not Radiant) The blunt force would be enough to severly damage the Half-Shard. and if you combine that with a shardplate than, whether or not the shield as aluminum is almost rendered useless. a few millimeters would do nothing to stop such a power. I will concide tho that an inch would highly likely stop it.

But there is another matter. the wood on the inside. if very heavy object is swung at aluminum coated piece of wood, eventualy the wood on the inside (no matter if it is ingrained within the wood) will shatter and splinter leaving you with an almost hollow shield makeing it easy to dent and destroy.

I would point out 2 things. 

1. Shardblades are much lighter than they appear. Usually weighing what a long sword would have weighed. They aren't koloss swords or a buster sword or anything. 

2. Most of the shardblade stances and swings have little force behind them because they have magical cutting edges and the force was very rarely needed. 

Similar to the watermelon in this video I think that the wooden shield encapsulated in the aluminum will hold up rather well. 

You don't need an inch thick coating even if it breaks under the aluminum coating it will function for a good while longer than a heavier and bulkier half shard.  Half shards use investiture to block investiture.  Same thing with metalminds... as the investiture gets destroyed by the shardblade the object gets destroyed... 

Aluminum is different.  It doesn't resist with a limited amount of investiture.  It turns the shardblade into just a sword. And even wooden shields did a really good job at stopping swords. Put the metal all around it and you get the best of both worlds.  I like the idea of using wood because aluminum is just a bit too soft for me to like it as a shield of its own. Coating a harder object and clinging to it like we see with the watermelon would be better than one or the other on its own. 

Halfshards were an awesome invention in the absence of noone on roshar knowing about aluminum.  As aluminum gets popular and more widespread knowledge it will make halfshards obsolete.  

[YouKnowYuno he/him]

I see what you mean and it's defenitly a plauseable theory, I just hope we actually get to see it in the books.

[alder24]

13 hours ago, Knight of Eternal Books said:

"It is worth noting that the aluminum only nullifies the supernatural sharpness of the Blade, so a thin sheet of aluminum foil would be sheared through easily by a Blade." the Coppermind - Shardblades

Which never happened in books (you said we've seen it, that's why I asked when) and that's from the WoB I've posted, where Brandon and Peter talk how they aren't sure if aluminum would be cut by a Shardblade and Peter only thinks it should work like you quoted - this is not fully confirmed yet. I agree with Peter, that seems logical.

3 hours ago, Knight of Eternal Books said:

there is one thing we haven't taken into account - the shear size and massive weight of the shardblades (dead Blades not Radiant)

They are big, but they are surprisingly light. The biggest sword in history, Zweihander (2.1 m) weighs around 4 kg, while most longswords weigh around 1-2 kg. That's not much. Shardblades weigh less than a longsword, there is not much mass behind Shardblade strikes - and that's both for deadblades and living blades). WoR ch 44:

Quote

“Those are people used to a regular sword,” Zahel said. “If you’ve trained all of your life with a longsword, then pick up something that looks like it has two or three times as much steel to it, you expect it to weigh more. Not less.”

 

3 hours ago, Knight of Eternal Books said:

The blunt force would be enough to severly damage the Half-Shard.

The Half-Shard is made entirely out of metal, it's really hard to physically damage that. It's basically a breastplate held in your hands. Even wooden shields handle strikes very well, without breaking - that's the point of a shield. Medieval plate armors were 1-3 mm thick and that was enough to stop most weapons. 

3 hours ago, Knight of Eternal Books said:

if you combine that with a shardplate than

Sure, against a Shardplate only a Shardplate can stand a chance. 

3 hours ago, Knight of Eternal Books said:

But there is another matter. the wood on the inside. if very heavy object is swung at aluminum coated piece of wood, eventualy the wood on the inside (no matter if it is ingrained within the wood) will shatter and splinter leaving you with an almost hollow shield makeing it easy to dent and destroy.

No. You underestimate the strength of a well-made wooden shield. It's meant to protect you, it won't splinter even if you were to keep striking it hard again and again. Sure they were damaged, but wood doesn't give up easily (especially when it wasn't just wood that makes a shield, it was wood, metal and leather meant to save your life).

Edited March 21 by alder24