Moash's Point of No Return

[+robardin he/him]

Without getting into yet another discussion/debate over Moash's various acts or decisions in Stormlight 1-4, I wanted to bring up something specific.

When he is feeding Kaladin's depression in Hearthstone (after killing two bound and captive villagers Kaladin had grown up with, and then Roshone, in front of him), he is interrupted by Renarin's arrival, including a glowing light in which a filmy vision/version of himself is visible: standing tall in a Bridge Four coat, protecting people, eyes burning Windrunner blue as a Shardspear formed in his hand...

This vision breaks through Odium's shielding him from "his pain", causing him to flee.

So obviously, "in another life", Moash (like most of the rest of Bridge Four) would have first squired to Kaladin, then bonded an honorspren.

At what point was that version of Moash rendered impossible? (Assuming it still impossible, after all he's done?)

Had he been persuaded by Kaladin's speech about "come with me and we will get justice against the right man, Roshone" when he and Graves confronted a wounded Kaladin over an unconscious Elhokar at the end of WoR, and stood with him against Graves (another full Shardbearer), would that have still enabled Kaladin to find the Third Ideal?

Or even, after physically attacking Kaladin, once Kaladin swore the Third Ideal, causing Graves to flee... Could Moash still have laid down his Shards then, begged Kal's forgiveness, and remained in Bridge Four and on the path to squiredom and bonding an honorspren? Instead of running off with Graves?

As for Moash's betrayal of Bridge Four's duty - as he pointed out, Kaladin had done the same. And as for the personal betrayal in assaulting Kaladin, well, had he not gone further and further down that road, I think even that was not the final turning point.

It's noteworthy that Kaladin did not tell Bridge Four of Moash's actions for some time afterward, and even still referred to him as "my friend" when punching Roshone in the face when he went to Hearthstone after the Everstorm, in Oathbringer.

And as Rock said about Rlain, who named himself a traitor, "Ha! Is little problem. Can be fixed."

I think the problem is that, as with Amaram, the man who cannot forgive himself for that betrayal... Is himself.

Killing Elhokar in Kholinar, who was clearly allied with Kaladin, and while backed by a squad of singers, ... I think that may have been the PoNR. 

[Quantus he/him]

42 minutes ago, robardin said:

Without getting into yet another discussion/debate over Moash's various acts or decisions in Stormlight 1-4, I wanted to bring up something specific.

When he is feeding Kaladin's depression in Hearthstone (after killing two bound and captive villagers Kaladin had grown up with, and then Roshone, in front of him), he is interrupted by Renarin's arrival, including a glowing light in which a filmy vision/version of himself is visible: standing tall in a Bridge Four coat, protecting people, eyes burning Windrunner blue as a Shardspear formed in his hand...

This vision breaks through Odium's shielding him from "his pain", causing him to flee.

So obviously, "in another life", Moash (like most of the rest of Bridge Four) would have first squired to Kaladin, then bonded an honorspren.

At what point was that version of Moash rendered impossible? (Assuming it still impossible, after all he's done?)

Had he been persuaded by Kaladin's speech about "come with me and we will get justice against the right man, Roshone" when he and Graves confronted a wounded Kaladin over an unconscious Elhokar at the end of WoR, and stood with him against Graves (another full Shardbearer), would that have still enabled Kaladin to find the Third Ideal?

Or even, after physically attacking Kaladin, once Kaladin swore the Third Ideal, causing Graves to flee... Could Moash still have laid down his Shards then, begged Kal's forgiveness, and remained in Bridge Four and on the path to squiredom and bonding an honorspren? Instead of running off with Graves?

As for Moash's betrayal of Bridge Four's duty - as he pointed out, Kaladin had done the same. And as for the personal betrayal in assaulting Kaladin, well, had he not gone further and further down that road, I think even that was not the final turning point.

It's noteworthy that Kaladin did not tell Bridge Four of Moash's actions for some time afterward, and even still referred to him as "my friend" when punching Roshone in the face when he went to Hearthstone after the Everstorm, in Oathbringer.

And as Rock said about Rlain, who named himself a traitor, "Ha! Is little problem. Can be fixed."

I think the problem is that, as with Amaram, the man who cannot forgive himself for that betrayal... Is himself.

Killing Elhokar in Kholinar, who was clearly allied with Kaladin, and while backed by a squad of singers, ... I think that may have been the PoNR. 

I really dont think Moash's PoNR was killing Elhokar, I think it was killing Kaladin.  In WoR, it wasnt just an assault, he caved in Kaladin's chest with the force-amplified strength of the Shardplate Kaladin had given him, and it would have been lethal if he hadnt managed to repair his Bond.  It may have taken Kaladin longer to come around (not surprising given the nature of the Windrunner Oaths regarding those they Hate), but I think Moash's Choice to kill Kaladin was the point he internalized it in his own mind and soul, and the rest since has just been him dealing with (or running from) the fallout.  

[+robardin he/him]

11 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I really dont think Moash's PoNR was killing Elhokar, I think it was killing Kaladin.  In WoR, it wasnt just an assault, he caved in Kaladin's chest with the force-amplified strength of the Shardplate Kaladin had given him, and it would have been lethal if he hadnt managed to repair his Bond.  It may have taken Kaladin longer to come around (not surprising given the nature of the Windrunner Oaths regarding those they Hate), but I think Moash's Choice to kill Kaladin was the point he internalized it in his own mind and soul, and the rest since has just been him dealing with (or running from) the fallout.  

I agree that was the PoNR from the POV of Moash internalizing it as such ("Kaladin. He'd tried to kill Kaladin. ... Storms. He should throw himself into the fire", he thinks to himself as he sits around in a daze with Graves and other Diagrammers fleeing the warcamps).

And of course, that counts for more than anything else.

But, I don't think that was actually as PoNR as he thought it was. Dalinar had done as bad, or worse, in his youth, that he looks back on with great regret, shame, or even horror.

And if intent counted for anything, Moash (I believe truthfully) said he hadn't meant to punch Kaladin as hard as he did - he wasn't accustomed to the strength lent by Shardplate, nor used to dealing with a de-powered Kaladin.

Basically what I'm saying is, the "alternate Moash" we saw in Renarin's vision, didn't have to be one that never pursued the plot against Elhokar, or even one that gave it up when Kaladin stressed that "we can't be this kind of men".

I think that, had he found a way to do it, when he came out with Khen and the other singers who knew Kaladin at Kholinar, facing off against Skar and Drehy, finding Kaladin locked up in the battle and pleading for everyone to just. Stop. FIGHTING, ... if instead of pushing his way to the front to finish off a fallen Elhokar, he had instead pulled his squad of singers back and tried to stop everything, ...

...he maybe could still have left with Bridge Four and been pardoned. We'll never know, though, because that's not what happened.

[Returned]

The image Renarin made isn't a gold shadow or malatium shadow, so it's not like Vin seeing the happy Terrisman someone might have been. Renarin's projections (Lightweavings, properly?) show the best possible version of their subjects, probably mediated by Renarin's perceptions or ideas. That's what happened to Adolin in the paddock. So the image of Moash isn't what an alternate path through life might have made him but rather is the best version of him that could exist.

I don't think that there is a point of no return in any mechanical sense (like as might relate to a Radiant bond). The whole concept of Radiance is of improvement, that it's never too late to be a better person than you were. The most important step a person can take is the next one.

The problem with Moash isn't that he made the wrong choice at some key point in the flow of events on Roshar, it's that he keeps making the wrong choices in ways that indulge and reinforce the personal feelings that have broken him (or that he perceives that way, I guess). It's not even so much the wrong choices themselves. For example, had Kaladin's genuine perspective been different he might have been compelled to kill Elhokar. But his uncertainty about what the right thing to do was, and even more his struggle to examine his options and himself to figure out what was right, led him to commit to mutually exclusive, opposed tasks at the same time. He knew that at least one thing he was doing was a betrayal of his beliefs and oaths, which cost him dearly. But when he had reflected enough to understand what was right (from his perspective and congruent with his character) he became more Radiant than ever.

Moash can't face what it would mean for the right choices to actually be right, in the sense that he obviously should choose them for moral/practical/whatever reasons, so he keeps making decisions that he can't really justify and guarantees that he cannot grow as a person in the way Radiance provides. It's telling that he needs Odium's constant, numbing influence while other bad people (like the Sadeases, Mr. and Mrs.) never did. Moash hasn't reached a point of no return and, until his own permanent death, never will. He chooses, every day, to be who and what he is. Vyre is a dead end, but not something that Moash cannot turn away from.

Edited March 19 by Returned

[+robardin he/him]

17 hours ago, Returned said:

The image Renarin made isn't a gold shadow or malatium shadow, so it's not like Vin seeing the happy Terrisman Rashek might have been. Renarin's projections (Lightweavings, properly?) show the best possible version of their subjects, probably mediated by Renarin's perceptions or ideas. That's what happened to Adolin in the paddock. So the image of Moash isn't what an alternate path through life might have made him but rather is the best version of him that could exist.

I don't think that there is a point of no return in any mechanical sense (like as might relate to a Radiant bond). The whole concept of Radiance is of improvement, that it's never too late to be a better person than you were. The most important step a person can take is the next one.

The problem with Moash isn't that he made the wrong choice at some key point in the flow of events on Roshar, it's that he keeps making the wrong choices in ways that indulge and reinforce the personal feelings that have broken him (or that he perceives that way, I guess). It's not even so much the wrong choices themselves. For example, had Kaladin's genuine perspective been different he might have been compelled to kill Elhokar. But his uncertainty about what the right thing to do was, and even more his struggle to examine his options and himself to figure out what was right, led him to commit to mutually exclusive, opposed tasks at the same time. He knew that at least one thing he was doing was a betrayal of his beliefs and oaths, which cost him dearly. But when he had reflected enough to understand what was right (from his perspective and congruent with his character) he became more Radiant than ever.

Moash can't face what it would mean for the right choices to actually be right, in the sense that he obviously should choose them for moral/practical/whatever reasons, so he keeps making decisions that he can't really justify and guarantees that he cannot grow as a person in the way Radiance provides. It's telling that he needs Odium's constant, numbing influence while other bad people (like the Sadeases, Mr. and Mrs.) never did. Moash hasn't reached a point of no return and, until his own permanent death, never will. He chooses, every day, to be who and what he is. Vyre is a dead end, but not something that Moash cannot turn away from.

Agree 100% that the theme of Radiance is that nobody is too far gone to "come back", and that what's derailed Moash has been... Moash. And the theme of "giving your pain to Odium" as a shield/crutch against the pangs of conscience, is that it holds you back from growth and genuine change.

But, that wasn't quite what I meant by PoNR - not that Moash "cannot have a redemption arc", no character is beyond that. I meant in the context of "Moash being the source of what's holding Moash back from being Full Bridge Four", as a Windrunner, as depicted in Renarin's vision/projection.

Up until the point he ACTUALLY killed Elhokar, in front of Kaladin, I think he could have convinced himself "OK, I messed up, but I can still make it right with Kal and the others", and been right. He would have explored the very limits of the Second and Third Ideals of the Windrunners, and come down on the side of choosing the "right" side (for an honorspren).

As for the mechanics of that projected image of him in Hearthstone - I do think it is very much akin to a malatium shadow in Mistborn (reminder, this is the Stormlight forum, BTW). With Adolin in the paddock, he saw an image of himself "perfected, ... somehow complete and whole, the man he could be". But with Moash, the filmy image of him that stepped towards the light - the Windrunner one - that was the perfect version of Moash that could have been.

("And who knows? Perhaps it is the him that would have been.")

Because even Kaladin can no longer forgive him after that meeting in Hearthstone, much less after killing Teft and several other unconscious Radiants later, that's for sure.

Finally, I don't think Kaladin could ever have had a perspective that "compelled him to kill Elhokar" and still retained his bond with Syl/been a Windrunner. As Syl herself said when he was thinking it'd be best for Elhokar to be eliminated, to let Elhokar be assassinated with his knowledge, "You're not a Skybreaker, Kaladin... You're not supposed to be like this."

"I will protect those who cannot protect themselves." = Better not be killing unconscious, bound, or oblivious people who trust you with their life, or letting them die on your watch with your approval.

Edited March 19 by robardin

[Returned]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

I meant in the context of "Moash being the source of what's holding Moash back from being Full Bridge Four", as a Windrunner, as depicted in Renarin's vision/projection.

Ah, I see now. In that case I think I'd say the point of no return is the earliest time he let his pain and guilt flow over to Odium. I don't recall exactly when that is (we may not even know, it could be subtler than when Odium flatly makes the offer). Denying his responsibility for his actions and their consequences is the key thing that doesn't fit with Radiance at all, so giving in to that is what shuts him off from the image.

1 hour ago, robardin said:

As for the mechanics of that projected image of him in Hearthstone - I do think it is very much akin to a malatium shadow in Mistborn (reminder, this is the Stormlight forum, BTW). With Adolin in the paddock, he saw an image of himself "perfected, ... somehow complete and whole, the man he could be". But with Moash, the filmy image of him that stepped towards the light - the Windrunner one - that was the perfect version of Moash that could have been.

Maybe. I'd wager that the visions are related in the sense that they interact with Fortune (that seems to be key to the mechanism that makes them work). I don't think that the past-looking element of malatium fits with Renarin's powers, though. His powers tap the future and I don't think we've ever seen them deal with the past. That fits with what we see of Adolin in the paddock: it's an aspirational vision, and the healing nudges him towards realizing that vision. I suppose we can't rule out that it worked differently for Moash, as we know very little of Truthwatchers' powers, but it seems to me that reaching into the past would be novel and limited to this singular instance so far. The implications would be interesting if the Truthwatcher healing did work that way on Moash and differently for others, though.

1 hour ago, robardin said:

Because even Kaladin can no longer forgive him after that meeting in Hearthstone, much less after killing Teft and several other unconscious Radiants later, that's for sure.

Finally, I don't think Kaladin could ever have had a perspective that "compelled him to kill Elhokar" and still retained his bond with Syl/been a Windrunner. As Syl herself said when he was thinking it'd be best for Elhokar to be eliminated, to let Elhokar be assassinated with his knowledge, "You're not a Skybreaker, Kaladin... You're not supposed to be like this."

I don't think that Kaladin's forgiveness would matter directly to Moash's Radiance progression. It's too external, and Moash needs to deal with himself to progress, not collect acceptance from others. People don't have to forgive Dalinar for his past, for example, in order for him to progress. Though I do think that Kaladin's judgement is important to Moash and his view of his own moral condition I don't think that it can be the linchpin for his potential to be better. Accepting that he won't/can't be forgiven for what he has done might be one of the things a better Moash has to accept living with.

As to Kaladin, I'm torn. Allowing Elhokar to be assassinated obviously feels wrong, certainly given the scope of events in WoR. But Kaladin kills an awful lot of people that can't protect themselves from him, and Syl can't explain to him why that's acceptable, nor can she rule out a Radiant on the other side killing the people Kaladin wants to protect and protecting the people Kaladin tries to kill. A Skybreaker probably couldn't countenance an extralegal assassination as part of a coup either (what legal forms would you need to have filed for that, I wonder?). And Syl does mention that Kaladin has made two promises as the heart of his bond weakening.

I think that the issue in this case isn't some objective standard that says killing in some situation is never OK but rather that Kaladin doesn't really believe that killing Elhokar is going to protect people, as he flirts with trying to persuade himself is true. His real reason was that he found Elhokar distasteful and a symbol of the worst elements of injustice in the society which had so badly abused him-- that he didn't matter except as an object of what Kaladin wanted and so it would be OK to sacrifice him just like a petty officer sacrificed Tien. Hence the perspective suggestion I offered up. I think that if Kaladin were in the field and had a chance to personally kill a Fused commander via a method like those proposed to kill Elhokar, and thereby avert a battle that would get lots of humans and Singers killed, he would be able to do it and maintain his bond.

Whom it's acceptable to kill, and probably under what circumstances, are issues that Kaladin has been dealing with and he's been moving away from the idea that it's acceptable at all. The difference must lie in what Kaladin thinks is right, as per the words of his second Oath. But in WoR he's much freer with violence and I think that he (or maybe I should say "a Radiant with the appropriate perspective") would be able to kill Elhokar, or allow him to be killed.

Edited March 19 by Returned

[+robardin he/him]

I tell you what, if Renarin's vision does end up being an accurate image of Future Moash, his redemption arc to becoming a Windrunner after all he's done (including killing Jezrien, the patron Herald of Windrunners, and then wielding his Honorblade in Odium's service!), will either be the best or worst thing ever written in the annals of Epic Fantasy  

[alder24]

20 hours ago, robardin said:

Without getting into yet another discussion/debate over Moash's various acts or decisions in Stormlight 1-4, I wanted to bring up something specific.

When he is feeding Kaladin's depression in Hearthstone (after killing two bound and captive villagers Kaladin had grown up with, and then Roshone, in front of him), he is interrupted by Renarin's arrival, including a glowing light in which a filmy vision/version of himself is visible: standing tall in a Bridge Four coat, protecting people, eyes burning Windrunner blue as a Shardspear formed in his hand...

This vision breaks through Odium's shielding him from "his pain", causing him to flee.

So obviously, "in another life", Moash (like most of the rest of Bridge Four) would have first squired to Kaladin, then bonded an honorspren.

At what point was that version of Moash rendered impossible? (Assuming it still impossible, after all he's done?)

Had he been persuaded by Kaladin's speech about "come with me and we will get justice against the right man, Roshone" when he and Graves confronted a wounded Kaladin over an unconscious Elhokar at the end of WoR, and stood with him against Graves (another full Shardbearer), would that have still enabled Kaladin to find the Third Ideal?

Or even, after physically attacking Kaladin, once Kaladin swore the Third Ideal, causing Graves to flee... Could Moash still have laid down his Shards then, begged Kal's forgiveness, and remained in Bridge Four and on the path to squiredom and bonding an honorspren? Instead of running off with Graves?

As for Moash's betrayal of Bridge Four's duty - as he pointed out, Kaladin had done the same. And as for the personal betrayal in assaulting Kaladin, well, had he not gone further and further down that road, I think even that was not the final turning point.

It's noteworthy that Kaladin did not tell Bridge Four of Moash's actions for some time afterward, and even still referred to him as "my friend" when punching Roshone in the face when he went to Hearthstone after the Everstorm, in Oathbringer.

And as Rock said about Rlain, who named himself a traitor, "Ha! Is little problem. Can be fixed."

I think the problem is that, as with Amaram, the man who cannot forgive himself for that betrayal... Is himself.

Killing Elhokar in Kholinar, who was clearly allied with Kaladin, and while backed by a squad of singers, ... I think that may have been the PoNR. 

I think that "point of no return" was when Moash chose revenge over his friendship with Kaladin and the Bridge Four at the end of WoR. It's not about punching Kaladin, not about killing Elhokar, it's just about getting revenge. There was no going back from this moment on because Moash made his choice and all things that happened afterwards just made him dig a deeper hole. He chose to be overwhelmed by vengeance. He was unable to stop himself from killing Elhokar in OB, in WoR he at least hesitated after hearing Kaladin. 

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

With Brandon, I'm going to say that Moash's point of no return is once we've seen him enter the Beyond and not a second before that (and maybe not even then). I have written, at length, about how I would prefer Moash not have a redemption arc, but that it is absolutely possible. Dalinar has personally murdered 10s of thousands of people and/or made it happen and he's a bondsmith holding the splintered shard of Honor, and taravangian has probably directly (or indirectly) killed as many people (if not more) than Dalinar and he's ascended (not that that is redemption, just promotion). When it comes to Brandon, the only PoNR that I'd agree has occurred, is on-screen dead and gone to the Beyond...and with the end of RoW, even that is somewhat in doubt now.

So it's an extremely hard sell for me to believe that there even is a PoNR for most characters (maybe not Hoid when it comes to his spiritweb or something similar that has some established rules to it), and that certainly includes Moash.