Could an Uber powerful Smoker hide/protect from a Shard?

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

Copperclouds can protect one from being sensed by Seekers, and any beings that detect Kinetic Investiture. They can also protect from emotional allomancy.

Copperclouds have limits to their strength and can be pierced by a strong enough Seeker. 

So would it be possible, even hypothetically for a Smoker to become so powerful, either momentarily through Duralumin or permanently through Lerasium-Copper alloy, that they can either block the sight of a Shard or at least protect them from having their emotions messed with?

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

Hypothetically, yes, with at least two caveats.

1. We sort of see instances where this could be happening, but they all require shards to be doing this. To put it simply, you would need shardic levels of power to protect against shardic levels of seeking. Although, if the shard isn't looking for you this power requirement can be lowered.
2. This won't stop said shard from finding you in other ways, and I'd imagine if you used investiture affiliated with that shard, they could be able to detect it

Overall, a seeking on their own could not do this. If Harmony wanted to give them a hand, then they probably could escape Odium's notice, albeit taxing harmony quite a bit

Caveat 3: OB spoilers

Spoiler

Renarin throws off Odium's plan somehow because of Odium's blind spot. We don't know what every shard's blind spot it, though we know Ruin's was metal. Utilizing blind spots would be a much easier way to hide from one shard in specific.

 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Copperclouds can protect one from being sensed by Seekers, and any beings that detect Kinetic Investiture. They can also protect from emotional allomancy.

Copperclouds have limits to their strength and can be pierced by a strong enough Seeker. 

So would it be possible, even hypothetically for a Smoker to become so powerful, either momentarily through Duralumin or permanently through Lerasium-Copper alloy, that they can either block the sight of a Shard or at least protect them from having their emotions messed with?

Maybe, but a Shard has vastly more power than any Smoker can ever dream of - their Coppercloud would always be pierced. 

 

41 minutes ago, Lego Mistborn said:

Caveat 3: OB spoilers

  Hide contents

Renarin throws off Odium's plan somehow because of Odium's blind spot. We don't know what every shard's blind spot it, though we know Ruin's was metal. Utilizing blind spots would be a much easier way to hide from one shard in specific.

OB spoilers:

Spoiler

That's not the same. Ruin can't see near metal because it glows, Odium's plan was disrupted because Renarin's future sight disrupts Odium's future sight - just like burning Atium creates multiple Atium shadows for your opponent. That's the same mechanism.

Odium can see perfectly fine, just when he looks at the future, it splits into many possibilities because Renarin is also seeing the future and can react to it, thus he can change the outcome of the future, splitting possibilities for Odium. 

 

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

Ironically, I think actually not.

A supercharged smoker would cause a massive void in a Shard's sight if they actually managed to go off RADAR, which would effectively paint a massive target in the sky pointing out their exact location...lol.

I don't think it's possible to hide from a Shard that knows what they're doing, so if they managed it, it would be a measure of ineptitude or specific vulnerability on the part of the Shard.

[Duxredux he/him]

I'm going to say that it depends. In Hoid's letters in the OB epigraphs it's revealed that Hoid was able to hide his presence from Harmony, though admittedly Harmony is the Shard least adjusted to his powers. Hoid also seemed to be able to hide himself from Rayse. That said, Hoid knowing a method to hide from a Shard is a far cry from saying Allomancy is the way he does it.

Regardless, if a Duralumin-enhanced Coppercloud obscures the sight of a Shard, then it almost certainly does so in an area-of-effect. For a Shard that can see at a planetary level, having a dead zone pop up is all kinds of intriguing with the assumed epicenter the instigator with this discrepancy impossible to hide - at least if the dead zone is noticed. The attention of a Shard is limited, so hiding in this way seems possible but not infallible and shouldn't be done only to hide, but only to hide the specifics of what you are doing right at that very moment. It's inconclusive, but worth mentioning that in TLM Wayne was able to compress time so fast that Harmony either wasn't able to communicate with him or wasn't willing to expend the necessary resources to do so. From this I think it's possible to use Copper to hide from a Shard that isn't willing to commit too much attention and power into piercing a boosted Coppercloud, particularly for passive observation.

As for emotional manipulation, Vin with a single Hemalurgic spike and no copper was able to resist Ruin's influence. Even a Shard like Ruin or Odium apparently has restrictions that prevent them from just taking over a human - the human has to be compromised already (multiple Hemalurgy) or they have to have given practically an open invitation for influence like Sadeas' army at the Battle of Thaylen City. Odium couldn't force or break Dalinar, not even when he couldn't hear the Stormfather anymore. I'd say no matter what Copper can reduce emotional manipulation, but I have no way of measuring how much power is needed to negate it - if total negation is even possible.

It's worth asking - anyone notice if Wax can hear Harmony when he's wearing an spike and has his aluminum hat?

Edited March 9, 2024 by Duxredux

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

7 hours ago, alder24 said:

OB spoilers:

  Hide contents

That's not the same. Ruin can't see near metal because it glows, Odium's plan was disrupted because Renarin's future sight disrupts Odium's future sight - just like burning Atium creates multiple Atium shadows for your opponent. That's the same mechanism.

Odium can see perfectly fine, just when he looks at the future, it splits into many possibilities because Renarin is also seeing the future and can react to it, thus he can change the outcome of the future, splitting possibilities for Odium. 

 

My point is that it is not the same, just that it is likely a simpler method. An even simpler method would be aluminum, which I believe should block

6 hours ago, hwiles said:

Ironically, I think actually not.

A supercharged smoker would cause a massive void in a Shard's sight if they actually managed to go off RADAR, which would effectively paint a massive target in the sky pointing out their exact location...lol.

I don't think it's possible to hide from a Shard that knows what they're doing, so if they managed it, it would be a measure of ineptitude or specific vulnerability on the part of the Shard.

 

5 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Regardless, if a Duralumin-enhanced Coppercloud obscures the sight of a Shard, then it almost certainly does so in an area-of-effect. For a Shard that can see at a planetary level, having a dead zone pop up is all kinds of intriguing with the assumed epicenter the instigator with this discrepancy impossible to hide - at least if the dead zone is noticed. The attention of a Shard is limited, so hiding in this way seems possible but not infallible and shouldn't be done only to hide, but only to hide the specifics of what you are doing right at that very moment. It's inconclusive, but worth mentioning that in TLM Wayne was able to compress time so fast that Harmony either wasn't able to communicate with him or wasn't willing to expend the necessary resources to do so. 

Great point. This is very important to keep in mind.

[Returned he/him]

We should also be clear about what we mean when we make a statement like "hide from a Shard". I presume that we're talking about Shards' near-omniscience and directly perceiving the Smoker.

We already know that that might work (a coppercloud protects against magical perception of magical activity), though the scales of power involved make it hard to judge without an example. The best analogue I can think of is Vin trying to control Marsh in HoA: the type of activity is the same (control a Hemalurgic construct) and the mechanism is the same (use emotional Allomancy), but Ruin is vastly more powerful than Vin and so her effort hits a brick wall. I imagine a coppercloud will have a similar issue, and even then I think that the hiding effect is more about obscuring magical activity than your person, spiritweb, cognitive representation, etc. I mean, anyone can see a Smoker just by looking at them.

We know that Shards can pay more or less attention to specific places, though their capacities are so great compared to a human's that a little bit of a Shard's attention can go a long way. But a Shard that's intentionally focusing on you is going to be difficult to hide from. Hiding inside of aluminum is probably a workable method (at least it might work), but a Shard isn't limited to using only its own senses. It would be easy to send a minion, Sliver, Splinter, or other avatar to look around with all kinds of enhancements that aren't inherently magical.

Edited March 13, 2024 by Returned

[strmblsd he/him]

I think it could in theory without the help of duraluminum through spiking hemalurgically enough with copper to add strength to create a super coppercloud.

[alder24]

49 minutes ago, strmblsd said:

I think it could in theory without the help of duraluminum through spiking hemalurgically enough with copper to add strength to create a super coppercloud.

Won't work. Each spike creates a crack in the spirit web, it makes investiture get into it easier. Vin with her spike was more vulnerable to Rashek's Soothing than others. Benefits of increased A-copper strength will cancel out your increased susceptibility gained from cracks, so you might end up with more or less the same situation as with just a normal Coppercloud and no spikes.

Spoiler

Dalenthas

Was TenSoon more susceptible to Ruin's powers than the other Kandra because he took OreSeur's Blessings?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, he was. However, the Blessing of Presence actually enhanced his mind to make him more resistant, so they balanced out.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

25 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Won't work. Each spike creates a crack in the spirit web, it makes investiture get into it easier. Vin with her spike was more vulnerable to Rashek's Soothing than others. Benefits of increased A-copper strength will cancel out your increased susceptibility gained from cracks, so you might end up with more or less the same situation as with just a normal Coppercloud and no spikes.

  Hide contents

Dalenthas

Was TenSoon more susceptible to Ruin's powers than the other Kandra because he took OreSeur's Blessings?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, he was. However, the Blessing of Presence actually enhanced his mind to make him more resistant, so they balanced out.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

What would you say to the suggestion of a reverse copper compounder? We have (unverified I think) rumors and theories about feruchemy being leveraged to turbocharge allomancy instead of the other way around as is usually demonstrated. I don't suspect they would be able to hide themselves still, since they would likely create a big cloud of blindness centered on themselves if the trick worked...they might be able to hide others in a massive area though. If they could block out a planet, they could render a Shard helpless. 

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, hwiles said:

What would you say to the suggestion of a reverse copper compounder? We have (unverified I think) rumors and theories about feruchemy being leveraged to turbocharge allomancy instead of the other way around as is usually demonstrated. I don't suspect they would be able to hide themselves still, since they would likely create a big cloud of blindness centered on themselves if the trick worked...they might be able to hide others in a massive area though. If they could block out a planet, they could render a Shard helpless. 

That will for sure work! Now that  I think of it, the big cloud of blindness isn't going to be that big of a problem. Sure, a Shard is almost omnipresent, they can be in multiple places at once, see much of the world at once - but they still need to focus their attention to find you and they are limited in that. If they don't know where to find you, they will miss this big cloud of copper because they aren't focused on that spot - unless something other in your proximity pings their attention. Just like Ruin when was oblivious to Kandra and Atium because it was in his blind spot full of metal. There are simply too many blind spots to search them all and they would still need a person to look through their eyes (like Ruin sending inquisitors to check storage cache for him, or with Kandra and Atium).

[strmblsd he/him]

11 minutes ago, hwiles said:

What would you say to the suggestion of a reverse copper compounder? We have (unverified I think) rumors and theories about feruchemy being leveraged to turbocharge allomancy instead of the other way around as is usually demonstrated. I don't suspect they would be able to hide themselves still, since they would likely create a big cloud of blindness centered on themselves if the trick worked...they might be able to hide others in a massive area though. If they could block out a planet, they could render a Shard helpless. 

Ok two things first in wax and Wayne harmony said he was blinded...maybe through something like this

 

And second of the shard incased itself in a lot of aluminum could this hide it since aluminum blocks investiture 

[alder24]

7 minutes ago, strmblsd said:

Ok two things first in wax and Wayne harmony said he was blinded...maybe through something like this

Trellium spike, that will work too, but you not only expose yourself to Autonomy, but Harmony can still see you from time to time. SoS ch 7:

Quote

It appears so. Somehow, Bleeder has figured out how to hide from me. At times I can spot her, but only when she takes direct and obvious action.

 

9 minutes ago, strmblsd said:

And second of the shard incased itself in a lot of aluminum could this hide it since aluminum blocks investiture 

Encase a Shard in aluminum?? I think you meant encasing yourself in aluminum. Sure, but that's rusty expensive and you are walking around in aluminum armor - that's basically an arrow pointing at you all the time. Not practical.

[strmblsd he/him]

8 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Encase a Shard in aluminum?? I think you meant encasing yourself in aluminum. Sure, but that's rusty expensive and you are walking around in aluminum armor - that's basically an arrow pointing at you all the time. Not practical.

Ok so in wax and Wayne it says an aluminum lined hat can block emotional allomancy so maybe just lining normal clothes cound have the effect on all of you. And the aluminum is getting cheaper so maybe in the future it would work better.

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, strmblsd said:

Ok so in wax and Wayne it says an aluminum lined hat can block emotional allomancy so maybe just lining normal clothes cound have the effect on all of you. And the aluminum is getting cheaper so maybe in the future it would work better.

Possible, but that much aluminum on you will interfere with your own powers, blocking your own Coppercloud. 

[strmblsd he/him]

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Possible, but that much aluminum on you will interfere with your own powers, blocking your own Coppercloud. 

That is a very good point it would probably be more effective for someone who doesn't have any invested arts that wants it to not be effected by them at all. And I feel things such as aluminum safe rooms and such could become a thing.

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Possible, but that much aluminum on you will interfere with your own powers, blocking your own Coppercloud. 

A person would have to be pretty darn paranoid to walk around smoking and wearing an aluminum hat. They'd probably be more difficult to influence or control than anyone except a pinnacle-oracle determination-compounder though. With the benefit of probably being less insane. I know we haven't seen one written, I just assume anyone compounding determination must be so unbelievably stubborn and unwavering as to appear totally bonkers. I'd like to think it was his natural determination that let Ironeyes break free of Ruin and, if that somehow becomes revealed as true, it would make determination compounders extremely scary in my eyes (pardon the phrase). Imagine being able to beat the angel of Death in a staring contest...

[alder24]

37 minutes ago, hwiles said:

I know we haven't seen one written, I just assume anyone compounding determination must be so unbelievably stubborn and unwavering as to appear totally bonkers. I'd like to think it was his natural determination that let Ironeyes break free of Ruin and, if that somehow becomes revealed as true, it would make determination compounders extremely scary in my eyes (pardon the phrase). Imagine being able to beat the angel of Death in a staring contest...

Agreed. HoA ch 66:

Quote

Yes, it would have taken a man of supreme will to resist Ruin even slightly while bearing the spikes of an Inquisitor.

 

I would give you a rep but I've hit a limit. It's been a while, but the limit is still too low.

[Colors]

I'm going to say no. 

A Smoker, even the most powerful possible, would be but a sliver of a full  shard's power. If that shard intended to detect the Smoker I suspect they could. Emotional allomancy I would say the same thing, but I don't think emotional manipulation is necessarily a power wielded by all shards in the way of zinc or brass allomancy. 

It's just a whole different ballpark of power involved. Now, if they weren't actively looking for the Smoker or were distracted or something,  sure it may be possible. 

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Agreed. HoA ch 66:

 

I would give you a rep but I've hit a limit. It's been a while, but the limit is still too low.

The limit should definitely be doubled; saying the words is always appreciated more though.