Siah Aimian Radiant?

[Etedbert he/him]

On this week’s shardcast, they brought up the phrase “Sapient Physical Realm Entity” as someone who can bond a spren to form a radiant bond.
A SPRE bonds a Spren if you will.

anyways it got me wondering where the line is on radiant bonds. We see cognitive shadows (Nale) bonding spren, albeit while he’s in a mortal body. I’ll also assume that two radiant spren can’t bond each other, given their cognitive realm shenaniganary nature. So where’s the line? What defines someone as being of the physical realm? Siah Aimians are apparently tied more closely to the cognitive realm than other seemingly mortal species, so could they bond a radiant spren? Or does their mystery connection to Shadesmar preclude it?

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Etedbert said:

I’ll also assume that two radiant spren can’t bond each other

It's theoretically possible:

Spoiler

Kolby Bradshaw

Could a spren bond another spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Theoretically possible, probably not a direction I'm ever going to go in the books for inception/recursive sort of weirdness reasons, but theoretically possible.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

10 hours ago, Etedbert said:

Siah Aimians are apparently tied more closely to the cognitive realm than other seemingly mortal species, so could they bond a radiant spren? Or does their mystery connection to Shadesmar preclude it?

If spren can theoretically bond each other, then Siah Aimians can bond too. Lift is like Siah Aimian a little bit - she's more in CR then she should be, she can touch spren and she is still capable of bonding. I think Siah Aimians can bond with no problems, they are clearly physical beings with a bigger Cognitive presence. 

Because two spren can bond each other I think there is no line at all. Maybe you draw it at Shards.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

Given that Sleepless (Dysian Amians) are capable of forming a Radiant Bond, I have to believe that Siah are as well!

Spoiler

alercah

The Sleepless presumably do not want her to swear a Radiant oath because she would be able to use the Dawnshard in conjunction with Surgebinding, and we know that that combination already destroyed one planet in the system so it's pretty understandable.

But there were a bunch of Soulcasters lying around and they didn't seem bothered. So is this one of the differences between Radiant Soulcasting and Soulcasting via the fabrial? That the Dawnshard cannot be used alongside the fabrial?

Brandon Sanderson

So, the Sleepless ARE capable of Radiant bonds. (I believe the back jacket of the first book implies as much, if I remember correctly.) However, things they at first thought were great are making them increasingly worried, for reasons that will come up (not related to them specifically) in this book and the next.

Soulcasting via a fabrial is way, way less dangerous than Radiant Soulcasting--which is in turn far less dangerous than unbound Soulcasting (meaning without oaths.)

FirebreatherRay

We've seen that the interpretation of the oaths is largely up to each individual spren (to the point that we've seen an entire Order of Radiants change their allegiance). Would it be possible for there to be a "sociopathic spren" that has interpreted the oaths so radically differently from the rest of their kind that it appears, to an outsider, that they are unbound in the same way the wielder of an honorblade is unbound? Or is there something essential about the nature of spren that prevents this?

Brandon Sanderson

I think that spren could go further than we've seen so far, and indeed, many of the older Skybreakers might be horrified by how far their order has gone. However, there are SOME fundamentals that even a spren with a very different interpretation wouldn't be able to abandon.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

Also yeah, I don't know that there is a line necessarily. 

Some WoB even hint that cognitive shadows might be able to form Nahael bonds in the right circumstances, so that seems pretty wild and wide to me

[QuantumAce]

Has Brandon ever addressed Ryshadium and radiant spren? Bond with a cultivationspren could make a really fun battlefield medic. 

 

[alder24]

28 minutes ago, QuantumAce said:

Has Brandon ever addressed Ryshadium and radiant spren? Bond with a cultivationspren could make a really fun battlefield medic. 

Yes, not possible. Ryshadium already has a bond with some Lesser Spren, this bond increases their intelligence, but that still not enough to become a Radiant - you need full sapience to be a Radiant:

Spoiler

Questioner

Will we be finding out more about the Ryshadium?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but it's one of those things we're gonna find out in little bits here and there. I mean, I think I've told people they are animals that have managed to form a spren bond, which has given them more-than-animal intelligence. It is the symbiosis there that is letting them. So if they did not have the spren bond, they wouldn't be--

Skyward San Francisco signing (Nov. 8, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

What effects does a spren bond have on a Ryshadium? Sapience, or more?

Brandon Sanderson

It increases their intelligence a great deal and gives them a little extra hardiness to survive in Roshar. And in exchange, the spren gets pulled into the Physical Realm, which they really like.

Tor Instagram Livestream (Nov. 25, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Would a macaw be able to become a Radiant? Or do you need sentience?

Brandon Sanderson

You need sapience. A macaw could not become a Knight Radiant. A macaw could, theoretically, enter a symbiotic spren bond, which would have different effects. Like, Ryshadium or even most of the larger greatshells don't have sapience. But a lot of creatures on Roshar do have what I would term an in-between step between human-level intelligence and animal-level intelligence on Earth. Ryshadium are in this; chasmfiends, as well, are smarter than an animal can get on Earth.

Tor Instagram Livestream (Nov. 25, 2020)

[QuantumAce]

31 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, not possible. Ryshadium already has a bond with some Lesser Spren, this bond increases their intelligence, but that still not enough to become a Radiant - you need full sapience to be a Radiant:

I hadnt seen the last one that specified Ryshadium are below the sapience level required for a radiant bond, thanks for digging that up. A Ryshadium who chose Lift as a rider and learned to use her "slickness" more gracefully than she can would still be pretty fun. 

[+hwiles]

It's probably worth remembering that a lot of the Cosmere's magic and bonding systems require some degree of trauma to one's soul in order to initiate. So...these theoretically possible scenarios might need to be caviated with a: "yes, if something absolutely terrible and tragic happened first." 

[J. Magi she/her]

On 3/9/2024 at 8:15 AM, hwiles said:

It's probably worth remembering that a lot of the Cosmere's magic and bonding systems require some degree of trauma to one's soul in order to initiate. So...these theoretically possible scenarios might need to be caviated with a: "yes, if something absolutely terrible and tragic happened first." 

I don't think so. Trauma helps with the bond and makes it more likely, but it's not a requirement.

WOB:

Spoiler

Cody Skomauski

I've struggled with mental illness my whole life. Reading about your characters like Shallan, Kaladin, and Dalinar, that all have some degree of mental illness, start their path to recovery after forming a Nahel bond is very interesting to me. Is it a requirement for a Knight Radiant to be broken in some way prior to the bond? Where did you get this idea? Or was it just how it turned out?

Brandon Sanderson

There's a bunch of different answers to this, a variety of directions I can go. Part of it is, this is how it turned out. As I was developing the characters, I knew very early on, after the 2002 version didn't quite work, I knew what I wanted to do with Kaladin. And Shallan's character has always been a central feature of who she was, even before I came up with her modern version of the character. So there was a theme building there on its own. And when I notice a theme, I ask myself, "Is there a reason I'm looking at doing this? Why is it a theme?" And I realized this is something that was very interesting to me. I have several loved ones who have mental health issues that they deal with. It was something I didn't see done a lot in heroic or epic fantasy, and it felt very natural as a place to go. That the Knight Radiant bond is about making this bond with this spren and striving to become a better person.

It is not required in-world. A lot of people, even in-world, think that it is, because it was so common. My kind of external answer to that, even though they don't know this in-world, is that people who have struggled with these kinds of problems are more open to walking the path that one needs to walk to become a Knight Radiant. The two go hand-in-hand, the kind of self-awareness, and the ability to see yourself, to be reflective, just goes hand-in-hand with working on some of these issues. And at the same time, I felt it just worked really well with the themes of the story, the themes that Dalinar has of redemption. And also, I think that the extreme circumstances that a lot of characters put through stories like the ones I write do lead people to have some difficulties, right? Even PTSD, and things like that. There's just a lot that goes hand-in-hand together with this.

So the answer is, yes, it happened to be that way. But once I noticed it happened to be that way, I asked myself, "Is this a theme I'm doing on purpose, even if I haven't noticed it?" And the answer to that was, "Yes, it is."

YouTube Livestream 2 (Jan. 20, 2020)

Spoiler

 

AndrewStirlingMacDonald (paraphrased)

Is being a little bit crazy a prerequisite to becoming a Knight Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, so, for many of the cosmere magics to work, you have to... it has to get into the soul somehow. Right? Sometimes you ram it in by spiking someone else's soul and ripping off a piece and sticking it into yours. Sometimes, it just seeps in the cracks. Sometimes the bond allows it to kind of bypass some of this, but it's usually traumatic experience. So crazy is not required, but there's got to be a place for the magic to go, to get in.

Shadows of Self Boston signing (Oct. 14, 2015)

 

[+hwiles]

9 hours ago, justice magician said:

I don't think so. Trauma helps with the bond and makes it more likely, but it's not a requirement.

WOB:

  Hide contents

Cody Skomauski

I've struggled with mental illness my whole life. Reading about your characters like Shallan, Kaladin, and Dalinar, that all have some degree of mental illness, start their path to recovery after forming a Nahel bond is very interesting to me. Is it a requirement for a Knight Radiant to be broken in some way prior to the bond? Where did you get this idea? Or was it just how it turned out?

Brandon Sanderson

There's a bunch of different answers to this, a variety of directions I can go. Part of it is, this is how it turned out. As I was developing the characters, I knew very early on, after the 2002 version didn't quite work, I knew what I wanted to do with Kaladin. And Shallan's character has always been a central feature of who she was, even before I came up with her modern version of the character. So there was a theme building there on its own. And when I notice a theme, I ask myself, "Is there a reason I'm looking at doing this? Why is it a theme?" And I realized this is something that was very interesting to me. I have several loved ones who have mental health issues that they deal with. It was something I didn't see done a lot in heroic or epic fantasy, and it felt very natural as a place to go. That the Knight Radiant bond is about making this bond with this spren and striving to become a better person.

It is not required in-world. A lot of people, even in-world, think that it is, because it was so common. My kind of external answer to that, even though they don't know this in-world, is that people who have struggled with these kinds of problems are more open to walking the path that one needs to walk to become a Knight Radiant. The two go hand-in-hand, the kind of self-awareness, and the ability to see yourself, to be reflective, just goes hand-in-hand with working on some of these issues. And at the same time, I felt it just worked really well with the themes of the story, the themes that Dalinar has of redemption. And also, I think that the extreme circumstances that a lot of characters put through stories like the ones I write do lead people to have some difficulties, right? Even PTSD, and things like that. There's just a lot that goes hand-in-hand together with this.

So the answer is, yes, it happened to be that way. But once I noticed it happened to be that way, I asked myself, "Is this a theme I'm doing on purpose, even if I haven't noticed it?" And the answer to that was, "Yes, it is."

YouTube Livestream 2 (Jan. 20, 2020)

  Hide contents

 

AndrewStirlingMacDonald (paraphrased)

Is being a little bit crazy a prerequisite to becoming a Knight Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, so, for many of the cosmere magics to work, you have to... it has to get into the soul somehow. Right? Sometimes you ram it in by spiking someone else's soul and ripping off a piece and sticking it into yours. Sometimes, it just seeps in the cracks. Sometimes the bond allows it to kind of bypass some of this, but it's usually traumatic experience. So crazy is not required, but there's got to be a place for the magic to go, to get in.

Shadows of Self Boston signing (Oct. 14, 2015)

 

Well...there are appropriate corresponding real-world analogs to several of the proposals in this thread that honestly shouldn't be depicted in the cosmere in my sincere opinion is all I will say on the matter.

No jokes, herrings, or irony meant in that one. I appreciate the response and the WoB's, they're ever a good reminder. Just meant to caution folks against wishing or asking for hyper exotic things that might be more horrifying in practice than they are yet aware yet...being able to laugh at those things anyway is important too though, so either way works.

[J. Magi she/her]

12 minutes ago, hwiles said:

Well...there are appropriate corresponding real-world analogs to several of the proposals in this thread that honestly shouldn't be depicted in the cosmere in my sincere opinion is all I will say on the matter.

No jokes, herrings, or irony meant in that one. I appreciate the response and the WoB's, they're ever a good reminder. Just meant to caution folks against wishing or asking for hyper exotic things that might be more horrifying in practice than they are yet aware yet...being able to laugh at those things anyway is important too though, so either way works.

I respect your opinion, and I'm sure no one in this thread meant to imply or create things that may be harmful in any way. I just wanted to clarify, and I appreciate your input on this!

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

As a sidenote, I feel there is an important detail in this WoB that I truly hope is a thing!

Spoiler

Questioner

Would a macaw be able to become a Radiant? Or do you need sentience?

Brandon Sanderson

You need sapience. A macaw could not become a Knight Radiant. A macaw could, theoretically, enter a symbiotic spren bond, which would have different effects. Like, Ryshadium or even most of the larger greatshells don't have sapience. (<--But presumably some do, right? Most means some?) But a lot of creatures on Roshar do have what I would term an in-between step between human-level intelligence and animal-level intelligence on Earth. Ryshadium are in this; chasmfiends, as well, are smarter than an animal can get on Earth.


Soooooo, what Greatshell(s) can form a Radiant bond exactly? Hmmm? Please let it be Chiri Chiri 

 

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Soooooo, what Greatshell(s) can form a Radiant bond exactly? Hmmm? Please let it be Chiri Chiri 

Yeah, Larkins should be able, they are quite sapient, Chiri-Chiri proves this. Tai-na are sapient too. They should be able to bond a Radiant spren on top of their existing bond with Luckspren (for Larkins), but the True Spren must be willing to share a bond, which shouldn't be that big of a problem with a non-sapient spren. 

[+hwiles]

On 3/12/2024 at 9:30 AM, JohnnyKaizen said:

As a sidenote, I feel there is an important detail in this WoB that I truly hope is a thing!

  Hide contents

Questioner

Would a macaw be able to become a Radiant? Or do you need sentience?

Brandon Sanderson

You need sapience. A macaw could not become a Knight Radiant. A macaw could, theoretically, enter a symbiotic spren bond, which would have different effects. Like, Ryshadium or even most of the larger greatshells don't have sapience. (<--But presumably some do, right? Most means some?) But a lot of creatures on Roshar do have what I would term an in-between step between human-level intelligence and animal-level intelligence on Earth. Ryshadium are in this; chasmfiends, as well, are smarter than an animal can get on Earth.


Soooooo, what Greatshell(s) can form a Radiant bond exactly? Hmmm? Please let it be Chiri Chiri 

 

Oh, I have a pet theory that there must be greatshells of extreme proportion far from normal rosharan civilization, out near the origin, where they can't be hunted. In their natural environment, they don't appear to have any upper bound on their size or lifespan, except being attacked by humans. I'd like to think at least a few have achieved intelligence and self determination in all that time.