IndigoBlue Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 spoilers!! when taravangian was stabbed by sword-nimi but also stabbed Odium with it, does this count as hemalurgy? perhaps raysium is able to transfer investiture upon hemalurgic use. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 No, as far as we know. Nothing is impossible, especially with Shards, a) but Hemalurgy requires the user to know what they are trying to do, and b) Nightblood is too invested to take new Hemalurgic Investiture (per WOB). 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 55 minutes ago, IndigoBlue said: spoilers!! when taravangian was stabbed by sword-nimi but also stabbed Odium with it, does this count as hemalurgy? perhaps raysium is able to transfer investiture upon hemalurgic use. Taravangian was not stabbed by Nightblood, it was just a normal dagger. Nightblood is too full to fit a Hemalurgic charge, just like a Shardblade would be. Moreover Taravangian had no intent of using Hemalurgy. It doesn't count as such. Nightblood is not made out of Raysium, but out of steel. What Nightblood does is he consumes and corrupts investiture - including human souls and bodies. He isn't like a Hemalurgic spike, he is like a Larkin. He already is so full of investiture that he leaks it as the black smoke. Spoiler Questioner Can a Shardblade, dead or alive, become a Hemalurgic spike? Brandon Sanderson It's already too strongly Invested for this. It couldn't hold anymore charge. Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019) Spoiler Questioner If you were a Leecher, could you destroy a Shardblade? Brandon Sanderson I'm going to RAFO that for now, let's just say that it would be incredibly difficult if it were possible, and I'm not going to even say if it is. But that kind of power... Questioner Let's just say they were burning duralumin as well. Brandon Sanderson Let's just say that the Investiture in a Shardblade is much greater than your average Allomancer, but... This type of thing is not unheard of in the Cosmere. The larkin, the Leechers, and Nightblood all have a similar sort of thing going on. Destroying a Shardblade would be really hard. And Investiture resists other forms of Investiture, so. Calamity Austin signing (Feb. 25, 2016) Spoiler lucagreene18 If Szeth were to have drawn Nightblood immediately after he had consumed Rayse, would he still have drained Szeth's Stormlight? As it said he seemed like he had eaten as much as he could. Brandon Sanderson At that point, Nightblood had entered into essentially a food coma... Well, no, the food coma one came when he was drawing from the perpendicularity. I don't think he was in food coma mode at that point. I think that he could still have drawn more at that point, I'd have to go look at exactly what I wrote, if I'd put him into food coma mode or not. It is possible. This is one of the things I wanted to answer with the book. A lot of people have been theorizing, could Nightblood eat an entire Shard? And indeed, Nightblood could not eat an entire Shard. That is not within his capability. In fact, one of the reasons that he leaks Investiture is: he's too stuffed full of it. There is more Investiture in the sword Nightblood than it can actually hold, it's supersaturated. And it leaks Investiture (that it's done some weird things to). But it is constantly hungry for more and constantly leaks it, but it definitely can get full for a time, and it could not eat an entire Shard. I did see questions about that from people floating around, and it's something I'd been meaning to get to eventually. Nightblood is definitely relevant to things that are happening in the Cosmere, but it is not as simple as grabbing the sword, sticking it into a Shard, and defeating the Shard, unfortunately. Though, as you see in this book, there are reasons for a Shard to still be afraid of Nightblood. It didn't destroy Odium, but Rayse still really had a bad time. YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colors Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 Seems unlikely. I'd say far more likely Spoiler Nightblood is just powerful enough to kill a shard, leaving their power to be taken up by someone else. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 55 minutes ago, Colors said: Seems unlikely. I'd say far more likely Hide contents Nightblood is just powerful enough to kill a shard, leaving their power to be taken up by someone else. Not a Shard, a Vessel. Spoiler Questioner Nightblood has more Investiture than any other being, right? Brandon Sanderson Not every other being, but definitely one of the most highly Invested individuals that we have seen. Questioner So Nightblood, he was used to wound Odium. Is Odium now weaker than he was before? Brandon Sanderson Not in a relevant way. Technically, yes. Not in a relevant way. The amount taken, compared to how much there is, is pretty small. And a whole bunch of what happened there was focused on the Vessel, not on Odium itself. Questioner Could Nightblood consume Odium? Brandon Sanderson Nightblood would get full before consuming even the smallest fraction amount of Odium. As you saw, Nightblood kind of got full in that instance. Actually, it was with the perpendicularity, it would be similar to that. So for those who are wondering, no, you can't stab Nightblood into the planet and absorb the planet. Nightblood is really dangerous, as we've seen, but we're not talking "absorb planets" dangerous. Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colors Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 4 hours ago, alder24 said: Not a Shard, a Vessel. Reveal hidden contents Questioner Nightblood has more Investiture than any other being, right? Brandon Sanderson Not every other being, but definitely one of the most highly Invested individuals that we have seen. Questioner So Nightblood, he was used to wound Odium. Is Odium now weaker than he was before? Brandon Sanderson Not in a relevant way. Technically, yes. Not in a relevant way. The amount taken, compared to how much there is, is pretty small. And a whole bunch of what happened there was focused on the Vessel, not on Odium itself. Questioner Could Nightblood consume Odium? Brandon Sanderson Nightblood would get full before consuming even the smallest fraction amount of Odium. As you saw, Nightblood kind of got full in that instance. Actually, it was with the perpendicularity, it would be similar to that. So for those who are wondering, no, you can't stab Nightblood into the planet and absorb the planet. Nightblood is really dangerous, as we've seen, but we're not talking "absorb planets" dangerous. Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021) Correct, I misspoke. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelsierFortnite Posted February 21 Report Share Posted February 21 Still, would it be possible to steal Connection from a shard vessel, thus becoming the vessel through the use of hemalurgy? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted February 21 Report Share Posted February 21 1 hour ago, KelsierFortnite said: Still, would it be possible to steal Connection from a shard vessel, thus becoming the vessel through the use of hemalurgy? Technically you can spike a Vessel/Shard, but that's practically worthless. You won't really achieve what you want. A Vessel is the mind of a Shard, they are one, they are investiture. Spoiler Questioner Can Shards be spiked? Brandon Sanderson Like, a Shard of Adonalisum? This is just not gonna work really well. It's a little like saying, "can I give a piercing to a whale?" Like... okay, but it's not gonna do anything, it's gonna fall off. And the moment they notice it, it becomes irrelevant. It's the most technical of yeses, but it's just basically worthless to try it. Because, again, you're gonna have to find a physical form of a Shard to do that, so what are you doing. Is it some avatar that they've made that'll just evaporate when they're done with it? What does it even mean to spike a Shard? Are you talking about somehow getting access to their Vessel, which has been completely transformed into Investiture at this point, so how do you spike that? There's all sorts of asterisks to this answer, but a technical yes; I'm sure you could find a way to do it. Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trusk'our Posted February 21 Report Share Posted February 21 2 hours ago, KelsierFortnite said: Still, would it be possible to steal Connection from a shard vessel, thus becoming the vessel through the use of hemalurgy? If you could actually affect their self, such as when pulled into a vision with them- I think you could possibly do that, though I'm sure it would be a lot harder it seems on paper. You might be able to de-Ascend someone from Shardhood too, which would be interesting to see. 37 minutes ago, alder24 said: Technically you can spike a Vessel/Shard, but that's practically worthless. You won't really achieve what you want. A Vessel is the mind of a Shard, they are one, they are investiture. Hide contents Questioner Can Shards be spiked? Brandon Sanderson Like, a Shard of Adonalisum? This is just not gonna work really well. It's a little like saying, "can I give a piercing to a whale?" Like... okay, but it's not gonna do anything, it's gonna fall off. And the moment they notice it, it becomes irrelevant. It's the most technical of yeses, but it's just basically worthless to try it. Because, again, you're gonna have to find a physical form of a Shard to do that, so what are you doing. Is it some avatar that they've made that'll just evaporate when they're done with it? What does it even mean to spike a Shard? Are you talking about somehow getting access to their Vessel, which has been completely transformed into Investiture at this point, so how do you spike that? There's all sorts of asterisks to this answer, but a technical yes; I'm sure you could find a way to do it. Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023) I think the WoB is mostly talking about implanting a spike in a Shardic Vessel, not about using them as a Donor. Plus, the Vessel's Spiritweb is supposed to be surprisingly low in Investiture, so spiking something off seems like a reasonable gambit in comparison. Spoiler Dragonsteel 2023 - Arcanum (coppermind.net) Questioner Assuming you have a way to siphon out a Vessel from a Shard, how much hemalurgic metal would be required to contain that Vessel? Brandon Sanderson An astronomically large amount. Oh, the Vessel? Or contain a Shard? The Vessel, just a little dude... not that much. Basically, like a decent-sized gemstone would hold an Unmade, and that's more Investiture than we're talking about. Questioner Can hemalurgic metal hold around the same amount of an Invested creature as a pure gemstone? Brandon Sanderson No, gemstones can do more. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted February 21 Report Share Posted February 21 15 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: I think the WoB is mostly talking about implanting a spike in a Shardic Vessel, not about using them as a Donor. Plus, the Vessel's Spiritweb is supposed to be surprisingly low in Investiture, so spiking something off seems like a reasonable gambit in comparison. It's about both. A Vessel at this point is just investiture merged with infinity. I don't think that it is reasonably possible to produce the effects you want. A Vessel might just heal themselves with the infinite power they are holding. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colors Posted February 22 Report Share Posted February 22 Now the question on my mind is whether you would be able to spike a Radiant and steal their connection to their spren, so basically could you transfer a Nahel bond via hemalurgy? Not that it would be that useful I think because I don't think the spren would be too happy with you after that, and then it raises questions about having to uphold oaths and ideals and the like. But it's an interesting thought on whether it's possible or not. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trusk'our Posted February 22 Report Share Posted February 22 44 minutes ago, Colors said: Now the question on my mind is whether you would be able to spike a Radiant and steal their connection to their spren, so basically could you transfer a Nahel bond via hemalurgy? Not that it would be that useful I think because I don't think the spren would be too happy with you after that, and then it raises questions about having to uphold oaths and ideals and the like. But it's an interesting thought on whether it's possible or not. It is a pretty interesting thought. And it's totally possible, though there are more complications involved due to the nature of Bonding a sapient piece of Investiture to gain the powers rather than it being directly encoded into the Spiritweb of the Surgebinder: Spoiler GenCon 2017 - Arcanum (coppermind.net) Questioner (paraphrased) If I wanted to Hemalurgically acquire a power from First of the Sun, which metal would the spike need to be? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) This is going to be pretty complicated, but several metals would work. Questioner (paraphrased) Would it involve Connection between the person being spiked and the bird? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Well it would be even harder than on Roshar, where you need to somehow spike the spren and also the Radiant. You would need to spike the bird and steal the power, but also spike the person and steal Connection. Spoiler General Twitter 2018 - Arcanum (coppermind.net) Jack Eaton Can Hemalurgy steal a Nahel bond? And if so, would that bond be unbreakable for as long as the spike was implanted. Brandon Sanderson This is a very dangerous and frightening thing in the cosmere, but it is possible--and the implications of it are something I intend to cover eventually in the books. Spoiler Shadows of Self Portland signing - Arcanum (coppermind.net) Questioner Supposing that a skilled Hemalurgist got hold of some a Shardblade or some Shardplate, how would he best use it assuming that the best way isn't to put it on and kill people with it. Brandon Sanderson That's probably the best way, to put it on and kill people with it. I'm not sure why a Hemalurgist would want one more than anyone else would because the metal is already Invested which means its not useful to him. Questioner So there is no way that he could use a Hemalurgic spike to take some power from the Spren that's crafting it. Brandon Sanderson Oh, that's what you're saying. You want to grab something off the Spren? That's gonna be way harder than grabbing one that's not already made into something. So I don't see why he would want the Blade, just go grab it from them. Even then its going to be worse then, probably in most cases, a person. Maybe its possible that spiking yourself with a Spren would be valid, but you don't want to take it out of the Shardblade. That's gonna be harder, but you would probably have to go to the Cognitive either way to make it work, so yeah. Spoiler General Twitter 2015 - Arcanum (coppermind.net) James Powell And were I minded to, could I kill Kaladin with a Hemalurgic spike and steal his Windrunning? (I don't want to kill Kaladin) Brandon Sanderson You can steal most things with Hemalugy, but Surgebindings are tricky because of the spren. Requires some non-standard workings. Spoiler Orem Signing - Arcanum (coppermind.net) Questioner Can Hemalurgy be used to steal other...like, the Stormlight... Brandon Sanderson It could. It's very complicated, particularly with surgebinding, because the bond with the spren is a voluntary thing. So, you could steal the power, but you would also be stealing the sprenbond which the spren then has autonomy over. So, it might not turn out really well for you. It might not turn out well for anyone involved. Much easier to steal things where there isn't an autonomous being involved in your gaining of the magical powers. Spoiler DragonCon 2019 - Arcanum (coppermind.net) Questioner Can Hemalurgy be used to steal [Surgebinding]? Brandon Sanderson Yes, technically, but since there are spren involved it's not gonna work the same way. It is possible but not gonna be nearly as effective, how about that? Basically since the spren can break the bond in certain instances, you can get it and then immediately lose it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colors Posted February 22 Report Share Posted February 22 (edited) 9 hours ago, Trusk'our said: It is a pretty interesting thought. And it's totally possible, though there are more complications involved due to the nature of Bonding a sapient piece of Investiture to gain the powers rather than it being directly encoded into the Spiritweb of the Surgebinder: Hide contents GenCon 2017 - Arcanum (coppermind.net) Questioner (paraphrased) If I wanted to Hemalurgically acquire a power from First of the Sun, which metal would the spike need to be? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) This is going to be pretty complicated, but several metals would work. Questioner (paraphrased) Would it involve Connection between the person being spiked and the bird? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Well it would be even harder than on Roshar, where you need to somehow spike the spren and also the Radiant. You would need to spike the bird and steal the power, but also spike the person and steal Connection. Hide contents General Twitter 2018 - Arcanum (coppermind.net) Jack Eaton Can Hemalurgy steal a Nahel bond? And if so, would that bond be unbreakable for as long as the spike was implanted. Brandon Sanderson This is a very dangerous and frightening thing in the cosmere, but it is possible--and the implications of it are something I intend to cover eventually in the books. Hide contents Shadows of Self Portland signing - Arcanum (coppermind.net) Questioner Supposing that a skilled Hemalurgist got hold of some a Shardblade or some Shardplate, how would he best use it assuming that the best way isn't to put it on and kill people with it. Brandon Sanderson That's probably the best way, to put it on and kill people with it. I'm not sure why a Hemalurgist would want one more than anyone else would because the metal is already Invested which means its not useful to him. Questioner So there is no way that he could use a Hemalurgic spike to take some power from the Spren that's crafting it. Brandon Sanderson Oh, that's what you're saying. You want to grab something off the Spren? That's gonna be way harder than grabbing one that's not already made into something. So I don't see why he would want the Blade, just go grab it from them. Even then its going to be worse then, probably in most cases, a person. Maybe its possible that spiking yourself with a Spren would be valid, but you don't want to take it out of the Shardblade. That's gonna be harder, but you would probably have to go to the Cognitive either way to make it work, so yeah. Hide contents General Twitter 2015 - Arcanum (coppermind.net) James Powell And were I minded to, could I kill Kaladin with a Hemalurgic spike and steal his Windrunning? (I don't want to kill Kaladin) Brandon Sanderson You can steal most things with Hemalugy, but Surgebindings are tricky because of the spren. Requires some non-standard workings. Hide contents Orem Signing - Arcanum (coppermind.net) Questioner Can Hemalurgy be used to steal other...like, the Stormlight... Brandon Sanderson It could. It's very complicated, particularly with surgebinding, because the bond with the spren is a voluntary thing. So, you could steal the power, but you would also be stealing the sprenbond which the spren then has autonomy over. So, it might not turn out really well for you. It might not turn out well for anyone involved. Much easier to steal things where there isn't an autonomous being involved in your gaining of the magical powers. Reveal hidden contents DragonCon 2019 - Arcanum (coppermind.net) Questioner Can Hemalurgy be used to steal [Surgebinding]? Brandon Sanderson Yes, technically, but since there are spren involved it's not gonna work the same way. It is possible but not gonna be nearly as effective, how about that? Basically since the spren can break the bond in certain instances, you can get it and then immediately lose it. Thanks for the WoBs. I'm still pretty much a rookie when it comes to all the things he's said, but they basically confirm my thoughts on the matter, specifically the difficulty of the bond being something the spren has control over. The only way it would work perhaps is if the spren already wanted to change who they are bonded with, but at that point there would be easier ways to do that. Sometimes I think that people want to use hemalurgy to do things just because it seems cool, but there are actually much easier ways to accomplish their goals. Edited February 22 by Colors 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted February 22 Report Share Posted February 22 25 minutes ago, Colors said: Thanks for the WoBs. I'm still pretty much a rookie when it comes to all the things he's said, but they basically confirm my thoughts on the matter, specifically the difficulty of the bond being something the spren has control over. The only way it would work perhaps is if the spren already wanted to change who they are bonded with, but at that point there would be easier ways to do that. Sometimes I think that people want to use hemalurgy to do things just because it seems cool, but there are actually much easier ways to accomplish their goals. It's not that difficult, it depends on what you want to achieve. If you want to have a spren companion then yes, this is difficult, but if you want powers then it's as easy as spiking a Radiant out of their Connection to the spren and spiking their spren out of their Surgebinding powers (as per the first WoB Trusk'our posted). Two spikes are needed, it's not that hard (as long as you can spike them both). I would argue it's easier to get those powers via Hemalurgy than through normal bonding. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colors Posted February 22 Report Share Posted February 22 3 minutes ago, alder24 said: It's not that difficult, it depends on what you want to achieve. If you want to have a spren companion then yes, this is difficult, but if you want powers then it's as easy as spiking a Radiant out of their Connection to the spren and spiking their spren out of their Surgebinding powers (as per the first WoB Trusk'our posted). Two spikes are needed, it's not that hard (as long as you can spike them both). I would argue it's easier to get those powers via Hemalurgy than through normal bonding. Perhaps, I assume that spiking a spren may prove a difficult objective...but I suppose if you're able to move in and out of Shadesmar it may not be as difficult as I'm making it out to be. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted February 22 Report Share Posted February 22 26 minutes ago, Colors said: Perhaps, I assume that spiking a spren may prove a difficult objective...but I suppose if you're able to move in and out of Shadesmar it may not be as difficult as I'm making it out to be. Yup, just be in the Shadesmar. It might even work if you do what Moash did with Teft's spren. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AonEne Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 Moved to Cosmere Discussion. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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