Could Kandra bring back Mistborn?

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

How much of it is spiritual vs physical DNA. 

I know a kandra could replicate DNA and even reproduce for and as a specific person. 

But would they produce strictly unpowered individuals?  

Theoretically if Vin and Elend had had children their chances of having mistborn children would be much higher than anyone else. 

However Vin and Elend are dead. 

But if a kandra got samples of their DNA couldnt their physical DNA be brought back at least? Two Kandra could replicate that DNA and then reproduce with it and create Vin / Elend offspring no?  

However it would be 100% impossible to bring back mistborn because that is spiritual only DNA?  Or does the DNA remember itself somehow?  

 

[Returned]

I think that it wouldn't work for two reasons:

1. Kandra can't have Allomantic powers (absent Hemalurgic spikes), as per Well of Ascension and Shadows of Self. This suggests that they can't just adopt them by imitating an Allomancer or Feruchemist
2. Kandra reproduction, such as it is, only produces Kandra/Mistwraiths as far as we know. I have no idea if reproduction while imitating would be possible, but even if so I would have to think that the offspring would still be Kandra and so could not be Metalborn

It seems that Kandra retain their Kandra nature even while imitating (they can still do Kandra things like moving organs around), so they aren't just the person they're imitating despite perfectly reproducing them. Maybe sufficiently skilled Kandra could mimic people well enough to allow for standard, human-style reproduction to get around this? That would have some pretty interesting implications, if so. Now I'm imagining Kandra operating as sentient biolabs, producing all sorts of biologic compounds like insulin and replacement organs, working to help repair people suffering from radiation damage, and even isolating whatever parts of DNA are associated with Metalborn abilities. It's probably for the best they're mostly working for Harmony even without all of that, but even more so with it!

Metalborn powers definitely have a spiritual component, given how Hemalurgy works, so even though it's clearly associated with regular DNA (Allomancy and Feruchemy are known to be heritable, reinforced throughout all of the Mistborn books) I don't think that that would be enough to "trick" the powers into returning at full strength.

Edited February 17 by Returned

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

3 hours ago, Returned said:

I think that it wouldn't work for two reasons:

1. Kandra can't have Allomantic powers (absent Hemalurgic spikes), as per Well of Ascension and Shadows of Self. This suggests that they can't just adopt them by imitating an Allomancer or Feruchemist
2. Kandra reproduction, such as it is, only produces Kandra/Mistwraiths as far as we know. I have no idea if reproduction while imitating would be possible, but even if so I would have to think that the offspring would still be Kandra and so could not be Metalborn

It seems that Kandra retain their Kandra nature even while imitating (they can still do Kandra things like moving organs around), so they aren't just the person they're imitating despite perfectly reproducing them. Maybe sufficiently skilled Kandra could mimic people well enough to allow for standard, human-style reproduction to get around this? That would have some pretty interesting implications, if so. Now I'm imagining Kandra operating as sentient biolabs, producing all sorts of biologic compounds like insulin and replacement organs, working to help repair people suffering from radiation damage, and even isolating whatever parts of DNA are associated with Metalborn abilities. It's probably for the best they're mostly working for Harmony even without all of that, but even more so with it!

Metalborn powers definitely have a spiritual component, given how Hemalurgy works, so even though it's clearly associated with regular DNA (Allomancy and Feruchemy are known to be heritable, reinforced throughout all of the Mistborn books) I don't think that that would be enough to "trick" the powers into returning at full strength.

So far we have this: 

Spoiler

Questioner

Could a kandra imitating a human have a child with the human?

Brandon Sanderson

So, I kinda go back and forth on this. So-- 'Cause I think about it, then I tweak the magic, and I think "no this isn't possible," and then I go back, and I'm like, "but..." So it kinda comes down to a lot of things, such as, would I want a DNA test to be able to determine if a kandra is real or not. And I haven't canonized that yet, so your answer is, Read And Find Out, once I decide. I go back and forth on that one so much.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

But that was back in 2017. Don't we have more evidence that a kandra can create skin grafts and organs for people at this point?  If they can replicate the DNA to a point where they are creating compatible transplants doesn't that suggest we have more of an answer to this?  

As far as kandra being biolabs I feel like we have seen good evidence of it.

I'm just curious where physical DNA and spiritual DNA draw a line. 

Also leads me to wonder what a kandra would look like in the cognitive realm. 

 

[therunner he/him]

Invested powers are part of the spiritweb, and that is something Kandra won't replicate as they only mimic what they consume (albeit possibly down to DNA level).

In essence, even if you cloned Vin, the clone would most likely not be Mistborn, because it would not have appropriate spiritweb and spiritual DNA.

You would need something to use something like Forgery or Awakening to create a spiritweb with appropriate powers.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

I think a stronger case could be made for Kandra being able to potentially bring back Feruchemy to full strength. Why? Because all Kandra come from Mistwraiths, Mistwraiths were made by Rashek attempting to get rid of every single Feruchemist other than himself. He didn't change those who had the potential for it, only the ones with the power. Mistwraiths have always bred with other Mistwraiths so theoretically there would be no dilution.

It's a long shot but perhaps inside every Mistwraith and Kandra's Spiritweb might be Feruchemy, buried out of reach through mundane means. And we've never seen what happens if a Kandra has a biological child...

So perhaps if a Kandra had a human child, they might end up being a Full Feruchemist. Maybe.

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

How much of it is spiritual vs physical DNA. 

It's fully Spiritual:

Spoiler

Questioner

Your magic systems are very structured, and specific rules that dominate them. But are there any universal laws that apply to all of the magic systems in the cosmere together?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there's several of them. Basically, the most important one and relevant to people who enjoy real physics is that I consider something called Investiture to be a third state of matter and energy. So, instead of e=mc^2, we have a third thing, Investiture, in there. And you can change Investiture to matter or to energy. And so, because of that, that law that you can do this, is where we see a lot of the cosmere magics living.

We also have a kind of rule that beings all exist, everything exists on three different levels. The Physical, the Spiritual, and the Cognitive. And, like we have DNA for our Physical self, we also have Mental DNA and Spiritual DNA, and all three influence one another. For instance, you couldn't test an Allomancer's blood and find the Allomancy gene, because it is in a different set of their DNA. You just have three sets. You could compose a test that could test it on the Spiritual Realm, but you're gonna have to use a different branch of physics to do that and determine who was an Allomancer. And so they all work on this kind of fundamental rules of: your Identity, your Connection, and being part of your soul, and the magics working through those things.

So there's some fundamental rules about this, about changing forms from energy to matter, and you having this Identity, Investiture, and Connection stored in your Spiritual DNA that are really relevant to everything.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

My question is about biology and genetics. We've seen that magical systems rely on *inaudible* genetics, like allomancy, or spiritual DNA. Can we use *inaudible* CRISPR to either weaponize or take someone's magical ability or give them a magical ability?

Brandon Sanderson

Kind of. The in-world version of this is Hemalurgy, as you already know. There are methods that would do this, but straight genetics alone with CRISPR wouldn't do it. You need the spiritual component for these to work, almost assuredly. You might be able to use CRISPR... no, I don't think there are any of them it would work on. Is it possible you could make someone into a kandra? That may be possible, right? But I'm not 100% sure on that.

Questioner

Can you use CRISPR with Ashyn viruses or bacteria?

Brandon Sanderson

Probably not, but that's more likely. I'd have to think on that. I'm gonna say "probably not" for now, but we'll minorly RAFO that. Good questions.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

Allomancy is basically your Connection to Preservation:

Spoiler

Kaimipono

Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies?

Brandon Sanderson

The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)

So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

Moreover Brandon still hasn't decided if Kandra actually replicate the DNA of the body they're wearing or not:

Spoiler

Questioner

My friends and I had this debate when we were playing the Mistborn Adventure Game. So when a kandra imitates a human, do they replicate the organs perfectly?

Brandon Sanderson

Usually, yes. But there are kandra that do not, by intention, do that.

Questioner

Does that include the reproductive organs?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

So theoretically if a kandra were to copulate with a human while pretending to be a human, would it create another human?

Brandon Sanderson

It would. And I think I've been consistent on that. So, I have to do things like this because I didn't want a blood test to be able to determine who was a kandra and who wasn't, because that's your go-to way to find a shapeshifter. So I think I had to imitate entirely. But boy, would it imitate the genetic code... *sounds of thought and frustration*

Questioner

That's the question we have.

Brandon Sanderson

You know, I don't know that they would...so they were human...I'm going to go ahead and back pedal and RAFO on that. I haven't decided 100% yet...I know you can't tell with a bloodtest, but if you look at the DNA, would you be able to tell it's a kandra? And I'm kinda thinking you probably would be able to. 

Questioner

So then, following that they wouldn't be able to reproduce.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, they wouldn't be able to reproduce in that case. I'm gonna go--jury's out. And I have to really make a call on this. I'm going to say, "Yes," right now, that they are doing this down to the cellular level, a copy, but I may have to backpedal on that when I get to future Mistborn books, when I really look at it, what it would take, to do that. It's an unofficial yes, with a RAFO attached to it.

FanX 2018 (Sept. 6, 2018)  

 

7 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

But that was back in 2017. Don't we have more evidence that a kandra can create skin grafts and organs for people at this point?  If they can replicate the DNA to a point where they are creating compatible transplants doesn't that suggest we have more of an answer to this?  

Actually, that WoB was given after BoM was published. And that grafted part MeLaan gave Marasi was meant to hold up only until Marasi heals by herself.