king of nowhere Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 Besides, I have never read where Sanderson was a master economist. I really doubt he has bothered to workout the macro and micro economic aspects of the gem-base monetary system. Sometime you just have to go with the story and not try to nano-analyze stuff. Even the best economic minds today can't agree on even some if the simplest economic policies. I disagree on that, I think a good storyteller should take care of all those details and try to make the story as consistent as possible. The answer could not be 100% accurate, or could be a bit unlikely, but there has to be an answer. I can accept a "just roll with it" only for humoristic purposes. That said, there can be plenty of reasons the value of the spheres stay fixed. The easiest is that while originally the respective values were based on the soulcasting use, with time they became fixed. probably there was some kind of agreement on that, and they became a fiat currency. At this point I expect the value of the coins would not change even if the market was flooded with gemhearts - even if maybe the value of the gems would go down. As for why we haven't felt the effects of inflation by now, it's because those kind of things would take time to happen in a society like that - only our society today reacts to changes very quickly. the price of gems will eventually go down, but it will take some time. I am more concerned with extinction of the greatshells. an animal that big can't have a very high population density, and the shattered plains aren't that big. if the armies have killed a few each week, their numbers should be starting to dwindle. And then the army could not soulcast food anymore. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethling Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 He is a novelist, not an economist. You cannot expect him to do an indepth consideration of all the possible outcomes for the economic system. If he had to do that just to please some readers, we may only get a book every ten years or so. The brightest minds on our planet cannot come to an agreement on even some of the most basic economic questions. The currency appears to be made from chips. That lends me to believe that they are made from the refuse of the other uses of the gems. Possibly the easiest way to control inflationary tendencies would be just to control the making of new currency. If there is a glut of gemhearts on the market, you can just stop them from being used to make currency. That would leave them useful for soulcasting and jewelery. A backstop which has been used by many countries for centuries is to just recall all the currency and reissue it in a different form at a fixed rate. England has done it multiple times. Germany did it to control the currency after the wars. I think Mexico did it in the last couple of decades. All of the ECU countries did it when they moved to the Euro. Dalinar already has developed a plan to control the currency to some extent by forcing the HP to buy their food from the king. That reduced the supply of currency available in the open market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyabi Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 Not sure where the exact references are, (and I didn't read this whole topic) but Zircon and Topaz are both also used as money for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 He is a novelist, not an economist. You cannot expect him to do an indepth consideration of all the possible outcomes for the economic system. If he had to do that just to please some readers, we may only get a book every ten years or so. The brightest minds on our planet cannot come to an agreement on even some of the most basic economic questions. The currency appears to be made from chips. That lends me to believe that they are made from the refuse of the other uses of the gems. Possibly the easiest way to control inflationary tendencies would be just to control the making of new currency. If there is a glut of gemhearts on the market, you can just stop them from being used to make currency. That would leave them useful for soulcasting and jewelery. A backstop which has been used by many countries for centuries is to just recall all the currency and reissue it in a different form at a fixed rate. England has done it multiple times. Germany did it to control the currency after the wars. I think Mexico did it in the last couple of decades. All of the ECU countries did it when they moved to the Euro. Dalinar already has developed a plan to control the currency to some extent by forcing the HP to buy their food from the king. That reduced the supply of currency available in the open market. I'd be more likely to agree with this if, as others have pointed out, Brandon hadn't explicitly touched on the subject briefly in the book itself. As it is, in order to control currency, there must be a centralized body with a monopoly on producing the currency in question. Who would that be, in Alethar? Maybe the soul-casters themselves (aren't they ardents)? That would be a lot of very subtle power to wield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 I'm not asking an author to write an essay on the consequences of the hero's actions on the economy of the world with iin-depth generational span. I'm just asking for consistency. Dalinar wondering if the supply of gemhearts could sink the market once they are brought back is enough to satisfy it. And it dont rrquire the author to take years to check everything. A good general culture from the author is enough to spot and clear most potentiual inconsistencies, but the thing to do is having several experts (not a world expert, just someone with good knowledge on the matter) of different disciplines among your alpha readers and asking them to find any such problem, along with proposing potential solutiuon that would not alter the plot. It's what sanderson did for the medical scenes of kaladin after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11thorderknight Posted December 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Regarding the monetary theory of spheres: 1) Important point - the currency is spheres, not just tiny gems. It's probably somewhat involved to coat tiny gems in just the right amount of glass. Possibly, given Roshar's tech level, it's something that's only done using Soulcasting. Therefore, the supply of gemhearts doesn't matter, it's only the supply of actual spheres in circulation that matters. 2) The tiny size of the smaller denominations implies that only "waste" gems are used for chips and marks, i.e. once a focus stone breaks enough times that it no longer fits into any soulcasters and isn't good enough for jewelry, it gets used in currency production. 3) The connection of value to soulcasting use can't be direct, because, as I pointed out, the Stormlight in currency is not available to modern soulcasters for use - the spheres can't be mounted into a soulcaster fabrial, and therefore can't be used for soulcasting. So it must be the connection of emeralds to food, for example, that made people decide to value them the most, not a literal use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dants Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 I think that Topaz would be a very valuable type of sphere, because it can soulcast into rock. That includes most gemstones, right? Can Topaz make the other types of gemstones needed? In that case it would be very valuable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 I think that Topaz would be a very valuable type of sphere, because it can soulcast into rock. That includes most gemstones, right? Can Topaz make the other types of gemstones needed? In that case it would be very valuable. Gemstones cannot be Soulcast according to Shallan. Though, some question whether that restriction really exists. I expect we'll find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 the spheres can't be mounted into a soulcaster fabrial, and therefore can't be used for soulcasting. We know that Jasnah's Soulcasting was other than as reported, but it's still the case that she used her fake Soulcaster in front of people in order to save Shallan by changing her blood, and she did it with a garnet broam. So, people apparently are willing to accept that spheres can be used by Soulcasting fabrials. Now, maybe they were simply wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyats Rani Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 We know that Jasnah's Soulcasting was other than as reported, but it's still the case that she used her fake Soulcaster in front of people in order to save Shallan by changing her blood, and she did it with a garnet broam. So, people apparently are willing to accept that spheres can be used by Soulcasting fabrials. Now, maybe they were simply wrong. Maybe Stormlight stored in a certain kind of gem has different properties? As in, better to use for Soulcasting even with the use of Transformation surge? Maybe the correct type of light is more likely to convince the spren to change into the right thing? I think it was easier for Jasnah to soulcast blood while using the garnet. If she called for a garnet only to make people believe that she's using a real soulcaster, then how would she explain using a sphere? The way I understood it, the modern soulcasters are fabrials. Fabrials work because certain kind of gems are connected by a proper metalwork. To use a sphere to power the soulcaster one would have to somehow put the sphere into the fabrial so that it still works. And I believe that fabrials don't work if everything is not connected properly. The glass part of the sphere may even influence the fabrial somehow. I guess the fabrial soulcasters need to have a correct form, so the spheres simply don't fit. So there would be no reason for Jasnah to call for a certain sphere if it didn't influence her surgebinding somehow. That would leave the question how did she manage to explain it to people? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 I think you sorta missed the point I was trying to make? The fact is, she called for a garnet, and then she used a sphere and her "Soulcaster" in front of people, and they accepted it. We do know that Soulcasters are relatively rare and poorly understood, so it's possible that spheres don't work with normal Soulcasters, and the people were wrong. Nevertheless, the room full of nurses and doctors saw her use a sphere in a Soulcaster and thought, "Well that looks all right by me." It's well within the realm of possibility that they were wrong, but I think it's probably more likely that it's well-known that spheres can be used in Soulcasters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyats Rani Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 I think you sorta missed the point I was trying to make? The fact is, she called for a garnet, and then she used a sphere and her "Soulcaster" in front of people, and they accepted it. We do know that Soulcasters are relatively rare and poorly understood, so it's possible that spheres don't work with normal Soulcasters, and the people were wrong. Nevertheless, the room full of nurses and doctors saw her use a sphere in a Soulcaster and thought, "Well that looks all right by me." It's well within the realm of possibility that they were wrong, but I think it's probably more likely that it's well-known that spheres can be used in Soulcasters. I guess, but part of the problem is that I didn't manage to be clear on what I'm saying... That happens to me sometimes... What I was trying to say was that I don't think spheres work in normal (fabrial) Soulcasters. Therefore I was wondering how Jasnah would explain that, but I guess you already answered me - it's likely that most people know little to none about Soulcasters so they may have assumed it plausible. Or maybe the society thinks that the spheres can be used in Soulcasters, but that's not really the case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Stormlight isn't quite like electricity. There's no need for there to be "conducting" material. Spheres are one Cognitive object, so I'd be surprised if a sphere stuck into a Soulcaster didn't work. There's a gem, it's connected to the Soulcaster, so the Soulcaster can now draw on it. I mean, would you expect Kaladin can't Lash things he's touching through gloves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyats Rani Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 Stormlight isn't quite like electricity. There's no need for there to be "conducting" material. Spheres are one Cognitive object, so I'd be surprised if a sphere stuck into a Soulcaster didn't work. There's a gem, it's connected to the Soulcaster, so the Soulcaster can now draw on it. I mean, would you expect Kaladin can't Lash things he's touching through gloves? No, it's not that. I'm very well aware that I'm propably mistaken, but that's how I see fabrials working - because of a certain form made of metal and correct gems. What you say makes sense, though. I guess I don't understand much about the fabrials Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted November 12, 2014 Report Share Posted November 12, 2014 I feel like we keep talking past each other. I understand what you're saying, but here's the thing. You're basically asking us to assume that spheres cannot be used in Soulcasters (which is an idea I can see your basis behind) and now you're trying to justify then why no one wonders how she Soulcasts with the sphere. I'm coming at it from another perspective, showing this evidence which shows that people accept that spheres can be used in Soulcasters. We've each admitted that neither of our arguments are very solid. You feel yours is more likely, I'm honestly ambivalent between the two. It's somewhat germane to our discussion, but unfortunately we can't know the answer until more books are released, or we get more WoB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyats Rani Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 I feel like we keep talking past each other. I understand what you're saying, but here's the thing. You're basically asking us to assume that spheres cannot be used in Soulcasters (which is an idea I can see your basis behind) and now you're trying to justify then why no one wonders how she Soulcasts with the sphere. I'm coming at it from another perspective, showing this evidence which shows that people accept that spheres can be used in Soulcasters. We've each admitted that neither of our arguments are very solid. You feel yours is more likely, I'm honestly ambivalent between the two. It's somewhat germane to our discussion, but unfortunately we can't know the answer until more books are released, or we get more WoB. I understand your point. I guess it was too late and I was too sleepy to think very clearly But yes, people do think that spheres can be used in Soulcasters irrelevantly of whether or not it's true, so it explains why the value of spheres seems to be determined by their usefulness in soulcasting. That's an interesting point actually, I wonder if it will be revealed in the next books. Maybe when Jasnah comes back she and Navani will figure out the connection between the surge and the fabrial? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11thorderknight Posted November 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2014 We know that Jasnah's Soulcasting was other than as reported, but it's still the case that she used her fake Soulcaster in front of people in order to save Shallan by changing her blood, and she did it with a garnet broam. So, people apparently are willing to accept that spheres can be used by Soulcasting fabrials. Now, maybe they were simply wrong. I think this was one of the clues that Brandon gives us, and Shallan, to let us figure out that Jasnah's soulcaster is fake. It's also a plot point - if Jasnah didn't call for a garnet, there would have been no reason for Shallan to spill her secret. It's stated explicitly in the books (I forget which one, I think WoK) that currency gemstones are made from the refuse of large gems that shatter during Soulcasting. If the small gems could be used in fabrials, then it wouldn't matter whether the large gems shattered - you'd just infuse the pile of gemstone fragments with stormlight and keep on going. No, the actual size/shape of the stone clearly matters to the fabrials (if not to surgebinders). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 Just realized that one of the Fighting Styles, presumably the one based on the essence of Plants, like emerald, is called Vinestance. Do you think this means emerald spheres are called vinechips and vinemarks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 It's a possibility. Though ruby spheres use the "fire-" prefix and the associated stance is flamestance so maybe not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 I was just reading the Wiki and think I found an error, but wanted to get some opinions on this before changing anything. According to the Wiki, only 9 gems are used for Sphere's and the missing one is unknown. But when I read the reference chapter, it reads as follows: "To get enough light, she was forced to use spheres of all nine colors and all three sizes, so the illumination was patchy and varied" At first blush, this seems to indicate only 9 types of spheres, but I don't think it does. If I have 10 pencils, I might only have 9 colors if 2 of them are the same color. Even if we assume each gem emits a distinct color, diamonds emit pure white light which we know is not considered a color in the Cosmere (think Warbreaker), again giving us a total of 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 If stormlight is tinted it'll make for really terrible general lighting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 If stormlight is tinted it'll make for really terrible general lighting. That's the exact point of the passage. Shallan didn't have enough Diamonds to cast a bright light, so she had to just use everything to get enough total light. In a nearby paragraph it also mentions that Jasnah is using only Diamonds for her lighting, because despite being the least valuable they give the best light for reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djerf Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 @ LabRat But if your interpretation that they don't consider "Diamond White" a color is correct then Shallan isn't using any diamonds at all which seems a bit far fetched don't you think? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaa Posted March 1, 2015 Report Share Posted March 1, 2015 (edited) Even if we assume each gem emits a distinct color, diamonds emit pure white light which we know is not considered a color in the Cosmere (think Warbreaker), again giving us a total of 10. @ LabRat But if your interpretation that they don't consider "Diamond White" a color is correct then Shallan isn't using any diamonds at all which seems a bit far fetched don't you think? Good point, Djerf. If I may add to this new discussion, I've always thought that BioChroma uses a subtractive color system (black=all colors; white=none) while Stormlight uses an additive color system (white=all colors; black=none), simply because natural colorants (e.g. dyes made from plants) are subtractive while light itself is additive. So while Nalthians don't consider white as a color, Rosharians probably do. Edited March 1, 2015 by skaa 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 1, 2015 Report Share Posted March 1, 2015 (edited) @ LabRat But if your interpretation that they don't consider "Diamond White" a color is correct then Shallan isn't using any diamonds at all which seems a bit far fetched don't you think? Not true. She's using diamonds, and they're casting light, but they aren't casting color. Essentially, my argument is that this image would be described as containing 5 colors (Yellow, purple, blue, orange, and green), not 6 (Yellow, purple, blue, orange, green, and white). Edited March 1, 2015 by LabRat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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