Koloss17 She/They Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 (edited) So at this point we pretty much know that Nightblood's connection to Ruin is that the command of "destroy evil" is an innately ruinous command. This connection to Ruin is what causes Nightblood to bleed black, Ruin's color. This is also likely what occurred with the machine in Yumi, which also had destructive tendencies with blackness oozing out of it. My question is this: How does that connect to Midnight Essence? Does it connect to it, or is it just a color coincidence? We know that Midnight Essence uses some degree of corruption of investiture, but that isn't exactly ruinous. In fact, a lot of what we see with Midnight Essence seems to be more close to Cultivation or Preservation than Ruin. They are built upon mimicry and adapting, and are not inherently destructive. Is there a connection to be made, or are they just weirdly similar? Edited February 15 by Koloss17 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyalBeeMage he/him Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 11 minutes ago, Koloss17 said: So at this point we pretty much know that Nightblood's connection to Ruin is that the command of "destroy evil" is an innately ruinous command. This connection to Ruin is what causes Nightblood to bleed black, Ruin's color. This is also likely what occurred with the machine in Yumi, which also had destructive tendencies with blackness oozing out of it. My question is this: How does that connect to Midnight Essence? Does it connect to it, or is it just a color coincidence? We know that Midnight Essence uses some degree of corruption of investiture, but that isn't exactly ruinous. In fact, a lot of what we see with Midnight Essence seems to be more close to Cultivation or Preservation than Ruin. They are built upon mimicry and adapting, and are not inherently destructive. Is there a connection to be made, or are they just weirdly similar? i would like to think that becaue this is brandon we are talking about there is something that we are missing. the aether and by association midnight essence based from what i understand from tress predate the shatering. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koloss17 She/They Posted February 15 Author Report Share Posted February 15 Just now, RoyalBeeMage said: i would like to think that becaue this is brandon we are talking about there is something that we are missing. the aether and by association midnight essence based from what i understand from tress predate the shatering. Yes. Midnight Essence is a universal cosmere phenomena, and has existed for quite some time. However, that doesn't mean that it is not connected to Ruin in some way. For example, I frankly don't think Ruin had any direct control over Nightblood's creation. I think that when Nightblood was created, through its very nature, some of Ruin's investiture was implanted in it. An unrelated connection that I have made: The Father Machine was built to mimic the Yoki-Hijo. Nightblood was created to mimic sharblades. Does that idea of mimicry have any connection? I don't really know, but it is another similarity between them and Midnight Essence. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyalBeeMage he/him Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 3 minutes ago, Koloss17 said: Yes. Midnight Essence is a universal cosmere phenomena, and has existed for quite some time. However, that doesn't mean that it is not connected to Ruin in some way. For example, I frankly don't think Ruin had any direct control over Nightblood's creation. I think that when Nightblood was created, through its very nature, some of Ruin's investiture was implanted in it. An unrelated connection that I have made: The Father Machine was built to mimic the Yoki-Hijo. Nightblood was created to mimic sharblades. Does that idea of mimicry have any connection? I don't really know, but it is another similarity between them and Midnight Essence. oh! i missed that. i remember reading somewhere that all ivestiture on all worlds was assigned to one shard or another. this means that every time someone presureves it uses preservation invesiture or something. i wonder if nightblood is a shardblade made of ruin's investitre that naturally exists on natilis. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus he/him Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 6 hours ago, Koloss17 said: Yes. Midnight Essence is a universal cosmere phenomena, and has existed for quite some time. However, that doesn't mean that it is not connected to Ruin in some way. For example, I frankly don't think Ruin had any direct control over Nightblood's creation. I think that when Nightblood was created, through its very nature, some of Ruin's investiture was implanted in it. An unrelated connection that I have made: The Father Machine was built to mimic the Yoki-Hijo. Nightblood was created to mimic sharblades. Does that idea of mimicry have any connection? I don't really know, but it is another similarity between them and Midnight Essence. Devils' advocate statement, but WOB says Ruin's accociation with the Color Black is restricted to Scadrial and that those two Polarized to White/Black because of how much of direct opposites they were. So, despite the fact that Nightblood is confirmed to have Ruin in him, the presence of color Black might be coincidence for Midnight Essence. more like how Blue Honor and Green Cultivation have a whole spectrum of different colored Radiant Orders. Quote Argent (paraphrased) Ruin and Preservation were often represented in the Mistborn trilogy in terms of black and white. Is this imagery limited to that series, or do other Shards also have an associated hue? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) This (Ruin & Preservation's colors) was because of the specific world and their perception of the world and themselves. Essentially, because of the dynamics of the interplay between Ruin and Preservation, they "chose" to view themselves as black and white respectively, so that's how they were represented. Also, because the only two Shards on Scadrial, and their natures were opposites, after the long period of time they spent on the same planet, they kind of "polarized." If similar thing happened on another world, similar coloring effect could happen. Steelheart Chicago signing (Oct. 1, 2013) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koloss17 She/They Posted February 15 Author Report Share Posted February 15 13 minutes ago, Quantus said: Devils' advocate statement, but WOB says Ruin's accociation with the Color Black is restricted to Scadrial and that those two Polarized to White/Black because of how much of direct opposites they were. So, despite the fact that Nightblood is confirmed to have Ruin in him, the presence of color Black might be coincidence for Midnight Essence. more like how Blue Honor and Green Cultivation have a whole spectrum of different colored Radiant Orders. Counterpoint: that’s an 11 year old WoB that might not be reflective of current shenanigans. Also, he’s kinda set up the trend of having shards correspond to different colors. It is completely possible that Ruin’s color is some color other than black, but from the books, that’s the clearest color he’s associated with. Nonetheless, I think that the point still stands. Nightblood and the Father Machine have some sort of connection to Ruin, likely through nature of their command and intent, and they are also associated with black. They also seem to have connection to Midnight Essence, with shared themes of mimicry and corruption, in addition to being jet black. Something’s going on with these four ideas, and I haven’t quite figured out what it is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 1 hour ago, Quantus said: Devils' advocate statement, but WOB says Ruin's accociation with the Color Black is restricted to Scadrial and that those two Polarized to White/Black because of how much of direct opposites they were. So, despite the fact that Nightblood is confirmed to have Ruin in him, the presence of color Black might be coincidence for Midnight Essence. more like how Blue Honor and Green Cultivation have a whole spectrum of different colored Radiant Orders. I don't think the WoB says that. It says that because of their interaction on Scadrial, they choose to view themselves as black and white - this would happen all around Cosmere, not just on Scadrial. Ruin's blackness was born on Scadrial, but once it appeared, it was showing up wherever Ruin's investiture was. 7 hours ago, Koloss17 said: An unrelated connection that I have made: The Father Machine was built to mimic the Yoki-Hijo. Nightblood was created to mimic sharblades. Does that idea of mimicry have any connection? I don't really know, but it is another similarity between them and Midnight Essence. I really like that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 1 hour ago, Quantus said: more like how Blue Honor and Green Cultivation have a whole spectrum of different colored Radiant Orders. 1 hour ago, Koloss17 said: Counterpoint: that’s an 11 year old WoB that might not be reflective of current shenanigans. Also, he’s kinda set up the trend of having shards correspond to different colors. It is completely possible that Ruin’s color is some color other than black, but from the books, that’s the clearest color he’s associated with If interested, we were discussing a similar/tangential topic in this thread (link is to the post where I brought up the recurring theme of Opalescent Investiture when in a gaseous energy state - not the start of the thread). But, from evidence in Taldain, Nalthis and Roshar (at least) we have seen evidence of a Shard's power showing as opalescent when not subdivided amonsgt the manifestations of investiture, but showing as a specific color(s) when subdivided. Spoiler Taldain - Mastered Sand is opalescent - Starmarks are colored by ability Roshar - Sibling's soul (and a few other references I need to find again) are opalescent while each order has an assigned color Nalthis - Biochromatic Breath (moving between people/during awakening) is opalescent (I don't recall any color specific subdivisions but need to check) So, my current working idea is that a Shard's color is shown in investiture manifesting as a physical liquid or physical gas (solid is metal, obviously), while the energy states are either opalescent (all aspects) or a specific color (only specific aspects). This may also explain why Iron/Steel Lines appear as Blue - if each quadrant in the metallic arts has an assigned color. Which means, for example, that if somebody could "see" a coppercloud or a zincpulse - those might be some color other than blue/white/black. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus he/him Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 5 minutes ago, Treamayne said: If interested, we were discussing a similar/tangential topic in this thread (link is to the post where I brought up the recurring theme of Opalescent Investiture when in a gaseous energy state - not the start of the thread). But, from evidence in Taldain, Nalthis and Roshar (at least) we have seen evidence of a Shard's power showing as opalescent when not subdivided amonsgt the manifestations of investiture, but showing as a specific color(s) when subdivided. Hide contents Taldain - Mastered Sand is opalescent - Starmarks are colored by ability Roshar - Sibling's soul (and a few other references I need to find again) are opalescent while each order has an assigned color Nalthis - Biochromatic Breath (moving between people/during awakening) is opalescent (I don't recall any color specific subdivisions but need to check) So, my current working idea is that a Shard's color is shown in investiture manifesting as a physical liquid or physical gas (solid is metal, obviously), while the energy states are either opalescent (all aspects) or a specific color (only specific aspects). This may also explain why Iron/Steel Lines appear as Blue - if each quadrant in the metallic arts has an assigned color. Which means, for example, that if somebody could "see" a coppercloud or a zincpulse - those might be some color other than blue/white/black. I like it. At this point (and assuming the older WOB's dont just prove to be outdated to his plans), I think every Shard is going to have an associated Frequency, which with manifest as a Color, a Tone, Both, or Neither (in the sense of not being perceivable by the the normal range of 5 senses, the visible light part of the EM spectrum, etc). A lot of the rest is a give person and/or magic system trying to make cognitive sense of the information. Your point about the Metal lines appearing Blue is interesting, it makes me curious if somebody with Heightening and Perfect Color would perceive them any differently. Or perhaps glean more information from them? WOB does say they can be used to identify different metals (without savantism). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koloss17 She/They Posted February 15 Author Report Share Posted February 15 1 hour ago, alder24 said: I don't think the WoB says that. It says that because of their interaction on Scadrial, they choose to view themselves as black and white - this would happen all around Cosmere, not just on Scadrial. Ruin's blackness was born on Scadrial, but once it appeared, it was showing up wherever Ruin's investiture was. I really like that. Woah! Alder not shutting down one of my theories! A rarity indeed . Do you have any theories on how Midnight Essence and Ruin are connected? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 (edited) 14 hours ago, Koloss17 said: Woah! Alder not shutting down one of my theories! A rarity indeed . Do you have any theories on how Midnight Essence and Ruin are connected? It's an interesting connection you've observed, the only one there is beside the blackness of those things. However, you made me want to try harder and I did go back to look at quotes about the Shroud from Yumi and one thing picked up my attention, Yumi ch 39: Quote This machine immediately began feeding on them, destroying their bodies and harvesting their Investiture. The result was the shroud, sprayed into the air, left to rain down and blanket the land. A dark miasma literally crafted from the dead, everyone’s Identities evaporated and transformed into this dark force. Imagine it like…the tar that decomposed bodies sometimes turn into over many years of incredible pressure. The shroud is that, except souls, left as refuse from the machine’s initial activation. A soul cannot be destroyed; it can only change forms. The machine, then, didn’t use people up so much as transform them. They lingered as this blackness, a churning soup made of tens of thousands of souls subject to the machine’s domineering will, held in eternal bondage to something they’d created. The Shroud is made out of Spirit Webs mostly stripped out of their Identity. The quote said "the machine transformed them," corruption is said to result in some change. What if this specific corruption happening with the Father Machine (assuming it is corruption), Midnight Essence and Nightblood is about forcefully stripping souls out of their Identities and that what makes investiture black? We know that investiture with Identity resists influence of outside investiture, if you strip them out of Identity it makes them susceptible to all kinds of things. For Nightblood it would mean that once he strips souls out of Identity, it's much easier for him to Leech and consume them, as they don't resist that much. Midnight Essence in general is very easy to be Connected to via Luhel Bond, you can even steal someone's bond if you give them more, it easily changes shapes and mimics other forms - for me this suggests that it already is without Identity. That's why it's so easy to influence it. How would that connect to Ruin? You basically destroy the soul's Identity. Is that simple enough? Spoiler Bye Nick Is the Shroud made of Identity? Or of souls minus Identity? The passage in Yumi seems to imply both? Brandon Sanderson We’re looking more at souls. Souls minus Identity is the path you should be going down. I mean, there is still some Identity in them, is the thing, but yeah. YouTube Spoiler Stream 6 (Dec. 19, 2023) Spoiler Diss the Chris In Yumi, the outer edge of Kilahito and the Nightmares are being described as being completely nonreflective, and they drip with a black liquid that smokes. The same description has been given to the Midnight Essence and to Nightblood. Are these linked, and indicative of some kind of warped Investiture? Brandon Sanderson They are significantly linked. (There you are; we’ll use “significantly” in that regard.) YouTube Spoiler Stream 6 (Dec. 19, 2023) Spoiler Roger As I understand it, red is a sign of corruption in the cosmere. I just reread The Emperor's Soul, and it mentioned wisps of red smoke when Shai tests the Soulstamps. Does this mean she is corrupting Gaotona's soul? Brandon Sanderson Yes, that is what that means. Corruption doesn't have to have the negative connotation, right? Basically, it means an outside influence is changing the Spiritual nature of the soul. And, yeah, that's exactly what is happening right there. Now, I would call that a pretty good thing, but... like, all of those things, where she is playing with someone's soul, and changing it, and changing their past, and things like this. This is, by cosmere definition, corrupting someone's soul. That's expressly what it is. YouTube Livestream 10 (June 18, 2020) Spoiler Blightsong How does corrupted investiture work, like Nightblood? Brandon Sanderson Oh, Nightblood. Again, this is a definition of what somebody feels is a corruption. For instance, there are spren that people would feel are corrupted. But that's corruption where the mixing of different Shards has changed things, and I think a lot of times when people say corruption, what they're meaning is the mixing of Shards' powers. Blightsong So is there a mixing of Shards' powers happening with Nightblood? Brandon Sanderson *smirks* RAFO. That's the natural question, I'm glad you asked it. Blightsong Ok, uhhh, so something similar is happening with Gavilar's sphere, right? Brandon Sanderson *contemplative silence* RAFO. OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016) Spoiler sebarial Would a Feruchemist actively storing Identity be more susceptible to Forgery? Would more outlandish changes be able to take effect? Thanks for your time, and have a wonderful day. Brandon Sanderson Yes, if you store Identity, it makes you susceptible to ALL KINDS of things in the Cosmere. Forgery would be on the short list. [...] /r/books AMA 2015 (July 14, 2015) Edited February 16 by alder24 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 (edited) 10 minutes ago, alder24 said: is about forcefully stripping souls out of their Identities and that what makes investiture black? Food for thought - going one step further. What if: Red = Something foreign added to "corrupt" (change) investiture Black = Something removed to corrupt (change) investiture Edited February 16 by Treamayne SPAG/Clarity 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koloss17 She/They Posted February 16 Author Report Share Posted February 16 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Treamayne said: Food for thought - going one step further. What if: Red = Something foreign added to "corrupt" (change) investiture Black = Something removed to corrupt (change) investiture This is an interesting thought! Now, Ruin’s big magic system is Hemalurgy, and while it doesn’t really involve his signature black, it is still connected to him. And there, It is corrupting through grafting someone’s spiritweb onto someone else’s. Now, you could argue that it has to remove something to add to it, but I think the biggest thing with Hemalurgy is the augmentation, not the excising. and @alder24, would that mean that Ruin is the shard of (black oriented) Corruption? I’m frankly a fan of this notion. Edited February 16 by Koloss17 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Koloss17 said: And there, It is corrupting through grafting someone’s spiritweb onto someone else’s. Is it not technically corrupting with both methods: Hemalurgic "victim" - Something is removed (spiritweb goes black - assuming they live) Hemalurgic "receiver" - Something is added (spiritweb goes red - body is changed to fit the corrupted change) Organ changes to NOT DIE to the Hemalurgy (inquisitor) Physical transformation (Koloss/Chimerae) Just because Ruin's primary color is Black does not mean the Shard of Entropy and Change doesn't/can't express both versions. . . Especially if the truest portion of Hemalurgy is the taking/ruining/destroying (the black part of the equation) Edited February 16 by Treamayne SPAG/Clarity 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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