Physical Spren??

CtrlAltDepressed · February 13, 2024

Heyo All.

Looking for thoughts and potentially clarification.

When we visit Ishars camp, it is discovered that through unknown means he is somehow forcing (convincing?) spren to manifest physical flesh bodies instead of as godmetal. We are told / learn (cant remember the passage exactly) that the spren dies within a couple of minutes. The stormfather is understandable upset about this and doesnt really give a lot of information. And then all the other Ishar stuff happens so it isn't really touched on again.

I have so many questions.

-How is he pulling them in? Is he creating a perpendicularity like Dalinar (unlikely) to force them through? Something with hemalurgy?

-Is this one of the mechanisms that was broken due to unmade / trapping of Mishram or was this never possible?

if it is a broken mechanism, is the broken aspect that this can be done at all or that it kills them right now?
Is there a way to bring spren into physical realm with bodies without killing them?
- maybe not as flesh bodies, but something similar to Stormfather who is only in PR?

-'the spren dies' what kind of death is this?

TSM Spoilers:

Spoiler

Is it deadeye death, aux death or something different?

I realize there may not be any answers for these questions, but i hadn't seen this discussed and it feels like it could potentially be really huge. What are your alls thoughts? Is this important or just showing how crazy Ishar is that he would try this?

Quantus · February 13, 2024

I think he's messing with the Nahel bond of Spren and Radiant pairs, Overwriting the human Radiant with the Spren's Spirit to manifest them with a body in a process closer to what the Fused are doing to their Singer host.

CtrlAltDepressed · February 13, 2024

4 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I think he's messing with the Nahel bond of Spren and Radiant pairs, Overwriting the human Radiant with the Spren's Spirit to manifest them with a body in a process closer to what the Fused are doing to their Singer host.

Interesting theory, could definitely be the case. I dont think it is because the passage states that the spren spontaneously manifest a physical body. I feel like if it was taking over radiant bodies, it wouldnt be described that way.

That description could itself not be accurate though lol.

Treamayne · February 13, 2024

24 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

I have so many questions.

We do not have most of these answers, but we hope to get some in SA5

24 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

-How is he pulling them in? Is he creating a perpendicularity like Dalinar (unlikely) to force them through? Something with hemalurgy?

Unknown. On one hand, Ishar seemed genuinely surprised that Dalinar could form a temporary perpendicularity - so we don't know if he has been doing so withthe honor blade, or if he could "see" what Dalinar had done and only replicated it. It is implied that he has been using his own made perpendicularities to send his "hunters" to gather "specimen." There is no implication either way on how he is trying to form a body for the spren though.

Presumaby, like Kalak, he's trying to find a way off world. Since we know the Oathpact "manifests" a body for a Herald returning from Braize, he is likely trying to use similar Connection shenanigans to force a Spren into similar body construct.

24 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

-Is this one of the mechanisms that was broken due to unmade / trapping of Mishram or was this never possible?

if it is a broken mechanism, is the broken aspect that this can be done at all or that it kills them right now?

Is there a way to bring spren into physical realm with bodies without killing them?

maybe not as flesh bodies, but something similar to Stormfather who is only in PR?

Unclear, but heavily implied that something like this has never been seen/attempted before (or the Stormfather would have mentioned such)

See above
As a shardblade. A Cosmere Constant is that shardic investiture in the Physical Realm as a solid state is Metal - and Spren are Splinters. Trying to force them into an organic host will not end well (as mentioned by the Narrator in SP3-YatNP)
- The Stormfather is not in the Physcial Realm - he influences the Highstorms that are, providing the Connection to the Cognitive adn Spiritual Realms, but you will note that every time he is "seen" during a highstorm (Kaladin, Eshonai, etc) there is tim dilation, because they are not seeing him in the Physical High Storm, they are seeing him in the CR/SR High Storm.

24 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

-'the spren dies' what kind of death is this?

Unknown, but heavily implied by the Stormfather's reaction to be as permanent a death as Phendorana's was.

Much worse than a deadeye or the SP4 reference.

8 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I think he's messing with the Nahel bond of Spren and Radiant pairs, Overwriting the human Radiant with the Spren's Spirit to manifest them with a body in a process closer to what the Fused are doing to their Singer host.

Unlikely, since we know they specifically targetted Notum (a confirmed non-Bonded Honorspren)

alder24 · February 13, 2024

28 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

When we visit Ishars camp, it is discovered that through unknown means he is somehow forcing (convincing?) spren to manifest physical flesh bodies instead of as godmetal. We are told / learn (cant remember the passage exactly) that the spren dies within a couple of minutes. The stormfather is understandable upset about this and doesnt really give a lot of information. And then all the other Ishar stuff happens so it isn't really touched on again.

Oversleep

We do not concern ourselves with common uses.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, I know you don’t. But yeah Hemalurgy, when you’re spiking into somebody you… you’ll see when we get around to it.

Kraków signing (March 21, 2017)

29 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

-How is he pulling them in? Is he creating a perpendicularity like Dalinar (unlikely) to force them through? Something with hemalurgy?

He's a Bondsmith, he can manipulate Connection. He probably Connects them to PR and he likely uses Perpendicularity as well.

I think he's replacing their Cognitive body's Connection to CR with a Connection to PR, thus making spren fully physical. But because their Cognitive body can't exist in PR as it breaks the laws of PR, they just die.

30 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

-Is this one of the mechanisms that was broken due to unmade / trapping of Mishram or was this never possible?

No, as far as we know. He can do that because he is a Bondsmith Unbound - without being limited by Oaths and with no restrictions put on Surges by Honor, since he's dead. It was probably not possible before Honor's death.

34 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Is there a way to bring spren into physical realm with bodies without killing them?

We don't know this. We know only what's in the book.

35 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

-'the spren dies' what kind of death is this?

Apparently permanent. Like a human death. Their body is left behind but their soul goes into the Beyond.

CtrlAltDepressed · February 13, 2024

35 minutes ago, alder24 said:

He's a Bondsmith, he can manipulate Connection. He probably Connects them to PR and he likely uses Perpendicularity as well.

I think he's replacing their Cognitive body's Connection to CR with a Connection to PR, thus making spren fully physical. But because their Cognitive body can't exist in PR as it breaks the laws of PR, they just die.

Interesting, definitely seems likely. Do you think he could kill an unmade / stormfather / nightwatcher / sibling this way?

Quantus · February 13, 2024

51 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Interesting theory, could definitely be the case. I dont think it is because the passage states that the spren spontaneously manifest a physical body. I feel like if it was taking over radiant bodies, it wouldnt be described that way.

That description could itself not be accurate though lol.

I may be looking at a different line, but Ishar's notes talk about "the process of creating bodies for them..." as a separate thing, and I can find no mention of manifesting bodies in that scene.

38 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Unlikely, since we know they specifically targetted Notum (a confirmed non-Bonded Honorspren)

I may have missed that, when did we learn about Ishar targeting Notum?

Regardless, I dont think that precludes Ishar Smithing the Bond for his own purposes and against the Spren's will.

Treamayne · February 13, 2024

28 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I may have missed that, when did we learn about Ishar targeting Notum?

By the Tukari following them for days and waiting until Notum was alone.

Maybe I gave the wrong impression with the word "targetting." I don't think it was Notum specifically as an indivudual as much as it was "go here and take the first unbonded Honorspren you find" and that's what they tried to do until Adolin happened to them.

Edited February 13, 2024 by Treamayne
Clarity/SPAG

alder24 · February 13, 2024

19 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Interesting, definitely seems likely. Do you think he could kill an unmade / stormfather / nightwatcher / sibling this way?

No. Most of them partially exist in PR already (the Sibling). And they are too invested to be messed by him like that. Investiture resists investiture. He would need probably a huge amount of investiture to overcome that.

RoW ch I-2:

Quote

She [Sja-anat] flowed through the Kholinar palace, existing between the Physical and Cognitive Realms. Like many of the Unmade, she belonged to neither one fully. Odium trapped them in a halfway existence.

@Quantus it would be really hard for Tukari to capture bonded spren because they already exist in PR, not in CR.

CtrlAltDepressed · February 13, 2024

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

No. Most of them partially exist in PR already (the Sibling). And they are too invested to be messed by him like that. Investiture resists investiture. He would need probably a huge amount of investiture to overcome that.

I would agree.

This does beg the question, where is Ishar getting the investiture to do what hes doing now?

We havent seen if heralds still have access to infinite stormlight through their Honorblades - do we think this is the case?

We know that Ishar hasnt bonded his order (unless its the nightwatcher which would be CRAZY but i think impossible because he would no longer be unbound) so he cant be absorbing it like a radiant.

Maybe hes using another form of investiture? If so, which one? Perhaps he is so crazy he is getting voidlight from Odium.

Quantus · February 13, 2024

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

@Quantus it would be really hard for Tukari to capture bonded spren because they already exist in PR, not in CR.

I agree, Id completely forgotten the connection to the Shadesmar hunting party they came across in Shadesmar. That being said, I dont think it's beyond an unbound Bondsmith's capabilities to force the Bond on a spren, either by creating a Bond or by forcefully relocating an existing one.

CtrlAltDepressed · February 13, 2024

2 minutes ago, Quantus said:

That being said, I dont think it's beyond an unbound Bondsmith's capabilities to force the Bond on a spren, either by creating a Bond or by forcefully relocating an existing one.

I agree I think Ishar could force a Radiant Connection. I think it would be bad news bears for both the human and spren but he should be able to do this. I dont think it is relevant to the physical spren situation, but should be possible given that you can force it hemalurgically.

alder24 · February 13, 2024

1 minute ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

This does beg the question, where is Ishar getting the investiture to do what hes doing now?

He's a Bondsmith because he has his Honorblade. He can open his own perpendicularity, refill his Stormlight etc. Those are Bondsmith powers. Whatever Dalinar can do, he can do as well. Ishar taps directly into Honor's investiture in SR.

Let's say that the Stormfather and Odium were seeing something in Dalinar that, perhaps, the average person watching even who is knowledgeable about Surges would not completely understand... But he will be able to use that power and Bondsmiths in the past have used that same power.

Footnote: Brandon clarified that he might have been unintentionally misleading in his answers to this question during his Stormlight 4 Update 1.
Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

4 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

We know that Ishar hasnt bonded his order (unless its the nightwatcher which would be CRAZY but i think impossible because he would no longer be unbound) so he cant be absorbing it like a radiant.

He can absorb Stormlight from spheres like a Radiant, he has a Honorblade. Just like Szeth could breathe in Stormlight while having Jez's blade, Ishar can as well.

3 minutes ago, Quantus said:

That being said, I dont think it's beyond an unbound Bondsmith's capabilities to force the Bond on a spren, either by creating a Bond or by forcefully relocating an existing one.

Agree. It sure is possible to force a bond onto spren - that's what Ishar tried to do with the Stormfather (by manipulating an existing bond).

Quantus · February 13, 2024

9 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

I agree I think Ishar could force a Radiant Connection. I think it would be bad news bears for both the human and spren but he should be able to do this. I dont think it is relevant to the physical spren situation, but should be possible given that you can force it hemalurgically.

I think it's relevant in the sense that we know he is experimenting with creating bodies for Spren and forcing them to manifest in the Physical realm by "bringing them over" somehow. We know his powerset primarily centers around Connection Manipulation. It's implied (but not confirmed, correct?) that his ultimate goal is to safely Create a new and/or UnConnected Body for Cognitive Shadows like him, as a step toward the eventual goal of being able to travel more like Returned.

alder24 · February 13, 2024

4 minutes ago, Quantus said:

It's implied (but not confirmed, correct?) that his ultimate goal is to safely Create a new and/or UnConnected Body for Cognitive Shadows like him, as a step toward the eventual goal of being able to travel more like Returned.

I don't think so. That's Kalak's goal. The only time his "goal" was revealed to us was in OB ch 64, Stormfather said:

Quote

Only one, he said with a rumble. I … have seen Ishar. He curses me at night, even as he names himself a god. He seeks death. His own. Perhaps that of every man.

It's hard to say if that's true or not. Stormfather is biased, he doesn't like him and he can only see Ishar in a very limited way. He might not know Ishar's true intentions or he might have misinterpreted them.

Treamayne · February 13, 2024

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

I think it's relevant in the sense that we know he is experimenting with creating bodies for Spren and forcing them to manifest in the Physical realm by "bringing them over" somehow. We know his powerset primarily centers around Connection Manipulation. It's implied (but not confirmed, correct?) that his ultimate goal is to safely Create a new and/or UnConnected Body for Cognitive Shadows like him, as a step toward the eventual goal of being able to travel more like Returned.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I don't think so. That's Kalak's goal. The only time his "goal" was revealed to us was in OB ch 64, Stormfather said:

It's hard to say if that's true or not. Stormfather is biased, he doesn't like him and he can only see Ishar in a very limited way. He might not know Ishar's true intentions or he might have misinterpreted them.

WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

With regards to certain experiments, would it be fair to say Ishar and a certain Scadrian have similar goals?

Brandon Sanderson

*hesitation noises* I don't know that I would say that 100%. The certain Scadrian you reference has been able to achieve the goals that he wants. Let's see if I can circumlocute this: there's a certain set of bones floating around that already has a Connection to this individual, which was useful in achieving what he wanted to do, which is not a luxury that Ishar has.
JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

Quote

Kingsdaughter613

If a Cognitive Shadow or a Splinter gained Connection to the Physical Realm, could they just transition through a perpendicularity to manifest a physical form, or is something else required?

Brandon Sanderson

Something else would be required, because you're... But that would take you a long way. It's going to depend on the situation, right?

Questioner

Because Ishar was doing something where like he was Connecting spren...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Ishar was doing something, and so for instance, spren are gonna be played a little differently than a Cognitive Shadow would be played. Like, Cognitive Shadows, that's just not gonna be enough. But spren is much closer. This has to do with how much Investiture's involved and how they're Connected and things like this, but it's not quite enough. In most cases.

Questioner

So Ishar was doing something in addition to just Connecting the spren to the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. He was indeed doing something more.
JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

Quote

Sheyaan Bhesania

Can whatever Ishar is doing to the spren help Thaidakar with his issue?

Brandon Sanderson

In a roundabout way, possibly.
YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

Doesn't shed much light. . . but narrows some things.

Quantus · February 14, 2024

16 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't think so. That's Kalak's goal. The only time his "goal" was revealed to us was in OB ch 64, Stormfather said:

It's hard to say if that's true or not. Stormfather is biased, he doesn't like him and he can only see Ishar in a very limited way. He might not know Ishar's true intentions or he might have misinterpreted them.

15 hours ago, Treamayne said:

WoBs:

Hide contents

Doesn't shed much light. . . but narrows some things.

That first WOB was the one I was thinking of when I said Ishar's goal was manifesting a new body to allow travel, but I realize there was a whole lot of my own assumptions in there for both of their motivations. Still, I think he's after something other than suicide like the Stormfather believes. The Stormfather has been known to describe a pretty wide variety of things as Death, so it could also be another fuzzy thing. I think he wants to disConnect himself from the Oathpact completely and transition to a new type of Cognitive Shadow that isnt Bound to Honor. That would probably allow him to travel but travel may not be his actual goal.

alder24 · February 14, 2024

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

That first WOB was the one I was thinking of when I said Ishar's goal was manifesting a new body to allow travel, but I realize there was a whole lot of my own assumptions in there for both of their motivations. Still, I think he's after something other than suicide like the Stormfather believes. The Stormfather has been known to describe a pretty wide variety of things as Death, so it could also be another fuzzy thing. I think he wants to disConnect himself from the Oathpact completely and transition to a new type of Cognitive Shadow that isnt Bound to Honor. That would probably allow him to travel but travel may not be his actual goal.

Well, judging by Ishar's own words, he wants to become Adonalsium reborn, I don't think he needs to be free of Roshar, he "just" needs to fix Honor, RoW ch 111:

Quote

“He claims to be the Almighty,” Sigzil said. “God, born again, after being shattered. He says he’s waiting for Odium’s champion to come and fight him for the end of the world. I think he means you, sir.”
[...]
“Your lies cannot fool me. I am Tezim, first man, aspect of the Almighty. I alone prepare for the end of the worlds. I should not have ignored your previous messages to me; I see now what you are. What you must be. Only a servant of my enemy could have captured Urithiru, my holy seat.”
“Ishar,” Dalinar said softly. “I know what you are.”
"I am that man no longer,” Ishar said. “I am Herald of Heralds, sole bearer of the Oathpact. I am more than I once was and I will become yet more. I shall absorb your power, Odium, and become a god among gods, Adonalsium reborn.”

That doesn't explain why he wants to make spren with a physical body.

Quantus · February 14, 2024

15 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Well, judging by Ishar's own words, he wants to become Adonalsium reborn, I don't think he needs to be free of Roshar, he "just" needs to fix Honor, RoW ch 111:

Im not convinced he's particularly consistent, and a lot of that sounds like him buying his own hype a bit.

15 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That doesn't explain why he wants to make spren with a physical body.

Sure it does, if you assume he's at the stage in his research and realmics that he believes that Spren and cognitive shadows (Fused and Heralds, maybe Returned if he's aware fo them) are all cousin states of existence. The Heralds are sustained by the Oathpact by all indications, and their bodies are provided, created, and/or repaired during the course of the Desolation cycle. The nearest example to mimic is the Fused, where a Cognitive Shadow entirely overrides a PR raw material host body. I think he's seeing what it takes to make that happen, and he's settling on Honorspren since they appear to have the closest thing to Human anatomy.

alder24 · February 14, 2024

22 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Im not convinced he's particularly consistent, and a lot of that sounds like him buying his own hype a bit.

Sure it does, if you assume he's at the stage in his research and realmics that he believes that Spren and cognitive shadows (Fused and Heralds, maybe Returned if he's aware fo them) are all cousin states of existence. The Heralds are sustained by the Oathpact by all indications, and their bodies are provided, created, and/or repaired during the course of the Desolation cycle. The nearest example to mimic is the Fused, where a Cognitive Shadow entirely overrides a PR raw material host body. I think he's seeing what it takes to make that happen, and he's settling on Honorspren since they appear to have the closest thing to Human anatomy.

No no no, you've missed my point. If Ishar really wants to become Honor/Adonalsium, he doesn't need to physically get out of the system, he just needs to Ascend to Honor. That's it. Once he is Honor he isn't bound like a Cognitive Shadow is (but is bound by Shard's investiture). It makes no sense for him to try to find a way to leave Roshar if he wants to Ascend to Honor.

So yes, I agree with your statement that Ishar isn't believable - his actions don't match with his words. So either this is just a "hobby," or he has other goals than becoming Honor.

ScavellTane · February 14, 2024

I don't think Ishar is deliberately making physical bodies for the spren. I think its a consequence of the spren being brought through Ishars particular Perpendicularity. Its established that Dalinar and Ishars Perpendicularities are different from each other.

+Child of Hodor · February 23, 2024

He's trying to convert them into physical realm being. Presumably because he wants to either do it to himself so he can be permakilled or to the Fused so they can be permakilled or both. I think this is actually possible. He doesn't know how to do it, but he knows it's been done before.

Aredor · February 23, 2024

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

but he knows it's been done before.

I don't think it has, though. The Stormfather seemed shocked when he saw what had happened. This is the first time that a Bondsmith has been Unchained on Roahar, which means that this is the only time that it could have happened.

Spoiler

Questioner

Aimians and honorspren have a lot in common. They can change their appearance, they are blue, they don't seem to die. Are those Aimians descendants of humans and honorspren?

Brandon Sanderson

No, good question though! The reasons they can change shape are similarly related. Excellent question.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

+Child of Hodor · February 27, 2024

On 2/23/2024 at 11:13 AM, Aredor said:

I don't think it has, though. The Stormfather seemed shocked when he saw what had happened. This is the first time that a Bondsmith has been Unchained on Roahar, which means that this is the only time that it could have happened.

Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Aimians and honorspren have a lot in common. They can change their appearance, they are blue, they don't seem to die. Are those Aimians descendants of humans and honorspren?

Brandon Sanderson

No, good question though! The reasons they can change shape are similarly related. Excellent question.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

I don't think a bondsmith did it in the past. I think the Spren did it themselves. It can happen, Ishar knows that much. I think he fails because the spren is not wiling and cognitive beings like stick can resist change. They can become fabrials and blades on their own maybe other things are possible. In Nohadon's day they could become blades without anyone swearing oaths and Aimia was around before Honor's death. It was a silver kingdom. Stormfather has plot convenient amnesia. Him not realizing something is possible is not necessarily the final word. Plus he's been acting very different with Dalinar than he did with Gailvar, he can lie, but I don't think he's lying here.

Thanks for letting me know about the WoB I wasn't aware of it. He says they are not descendents, they are not human - spren hybrids. He wasn't asked they are Spren transformed into living humanoids. I think they are just spren made into physical realm beings straight up and they either don't age or have extremely long lives, similar to spren who are live indefinitely unless unmade or antiinvestitured.

Edited February 27, 2024 by Child of Hodor

Physical Spren??

Recommended Posts

Quantus he/him

Mr. Suit

Brandon Sanderson

Oversleep

Brandon Sanderson

Oversleep

Brandon Sanderson

Oversleep

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Oversleep

Brandon Sanderson

Oversleep

Brandon Sanderson

Quantus he/him

Quantus he/him

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Quantus he/him

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Kingsdaughter613

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Sheyaan Bhesania

Brandon Sanderson

Quantus he/him

Quantus he/him

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Recently Browsing 0 members