Through The Living Grub He/Him Posted February 12, 2024 Posted February 12, 2024 When Investiture is corrupted it turns red as far as I'm aware. As far as I'm aware, this includes Voidspren, whatever Sja-anat enlightens(?). What about Voidlight, Odium's colors are gold and white, and Trellium(TLM spoilers) Spoiler Marasi finds a Cycle with a Trellium spike and when she takes it from him his eyes turn red. When Wax later runs some tests on the spike and finds it releases a full color spectrum with a larger red section. I understand Odium having more corrupted investiture because he doesn't want to be chained down. But why does Trell/Autonomy/Bavadin/whatever avatar is doing this have corrupted Investiture?
Highprince10 he/him Posted February 12, 2024 Posted February 12, 2024 6 minutes ago, Xiahida said: But why does Trell/Autonomy/Bavadin/whatever avatar is doing this have corrupted Investiture? I think Autonomy has corrupted investiture because she is operating on a different planet and in a different magic system then her own. She needs a back door into the magic system so she has to corrupt it if she doesn't want to be connected to it. On Talidin her magic system is normal with no red investiture if harmony wanted to put his own sand mages on her planet I think they would have corrupted investiture too. 1
Quantus he/him Posted February 12, 2024 Posted February 12, 2024 Basically, once the Shard has Invested in the world enough for it's Pure Tone to emerge, then it has assimilated enough that it's no longer "Corrupting" foreign Investiture to interact with the local system. This is why some Voidspren are described as shadowy red and some are Odium's Gold, the older ones where created under old rules (just like Spren genders). 2
alder24 Posted February 12, 2024 Posted February 12, 2024 1 hour ago, Xiahida said: When Investiture is corrupted it turns red as far as I'm aware. As far as I'm aware, this includes Voidspren, whatever Sja-anat enlightens(?). Not every time. Nightblood leaks corrupted investiture and it's black, Midnight essence is something corrupted and it's black, Enlighten spren can be not red (Firespren are blue for example, they just look wrong) etc. But generally it's common for corrupted investiture to manifest with something red in it. Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Anyway, Nightblood is named for the smoke he leaks, and he originally had a different name when he was created. Vasher himself dubbed the sword Nightblood after he had used it to kill the woman he loved. The blackness that leaks out is actually corrupted and consumed Breaths, the ones that Nightblood leeches off anyone who draws him. Warbreaker Annotations (April 25, 2011) Spoiler Red the Windrunner (paraphrased) We have now seen Midnight Essence on Lumar and as part of the Unmade on Roshar, should we assume that all the other Unmade have connections to Odium’s other conquests like maybe Sja-anat and Ambition? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Midnight Essence is more like Lightweaving in that multiple magic systems will reach the same conclusion. When something is done to the magic to corrupt it, it becomes like Midnight Essence. So while there are similarities between the two and they work the same they may not have the same point of origin. Red the Windrunner (paraphrased) So there is no meaningful connection between Sja-anat and Ambition? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) You weren’t going to let me off the hook. You are theorizing in a very interesting direction. RAFO! Tampa Bay Comic Convention 2023 (July 28, 2023) 1 hour ago, Xiahida said: What about Voidlight, Odium's colors are gold and white Voidlight is not corrupted, it's pure raw investiture of Odium. Odium's true color is gold, you see red a lot when he is corrupting something: Spoiler Questioner So, we know in Mistborn there is this running... you can say, motif about Ruin being associated with the color black and Preservation with the color white, we see a lot of very subtle and a lot of very unsubtle... Brandon Sanderson Yeah, yes. Questioner Is such a motif present in any other books? I think I see it in Stormlight. Brandon Sanderson Yeah, in Stormlight you can see it. So, Ruin is a red-gold... not Ruin, Odium. Odium is a red-gold. Honor is a blue-white and Cultivation is green, obviously. So, those motifs stay, when you... when you see a red or a gold, it's a reddish gold sort of thing, either of those colors, it's going to be Odium. Questioner Even when we something we might suspect to be outside influence in other worlds? Brandon Sanderson Not necessarily, because red can also mean corrupted Investiture in the Cosmere. So, I would call Odium's real color gold, because you're going to see red when Odium is corrupting other things, so... Questioner It's not necessarily on Roshar. Brandon Sanderson It's not necessarily Odium. So, you're asking for the invading force on Mistborn, it doesn't necessarily mean Odium because it's red. So red just kind of means corruption. I've talked about that before, so. Not necessarily, not definitive, yeah. Footnote: When Sanderson said "you're asking about the invading force on Mistborn", the questioner made a guilty "caught red-handed" shrug. ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019) 1 hour ago, Xiahida said: Marasi finds a Cycle with a Trellium spike and when she takes it from him his eyes turn red. When Wax later runs some tests on the spike and finds it releases a full color spectrum with a larger red section. I understand Odium having more corrupted investiture because he doesn't want to be chained down. But why does Trell/Autonomy/Bavadin/whatever avatar is doing this have corrupted Investiture? No need for a spoiler box for TLM anymore. We don't know, but that's just a way Shards influence other systems that aren't theirs. Corruption means mixing investiture of different Shards together in a specific way which changes things. Autonomy is bound to the Taldain system, but her essence permeates the entire Cosmere. She can use it and tweak it and that's how she creates her Avatars - that's how Trell was made, that's how Patji was made. With Trellium it's unknown how she got it to Scadrial - it might have been from her investiture that was present there, it might have been carried to Scadrial from Taldain. Metal itself is made out of pure Bavadinium, pure investiture of Autonomy. The Trellium spike was noted to have red, rusty veins - that might be indication of corruption, or that might be simply the natural coloration of Trellium god metal. It might be that because they are using Trellium spikes to steal Scadrian's souls (made out of Ruin and Preservation) and it corrupts those stolen pieces with Autonomy investiture - and that's where the red is coming from. So the redness in Trellium spikes would indicate that their charge was corrupted. Not every red you see means corruption. It can just be red. Red can be just the natural color of Autonomy, just like blue is the color of Honor, or gold is of Odium. There are some people across Cosmere wearing gold and red colors, just like Autonomy’s army is - not every time it has to have some connection to Autonomy but it can in some cases. Personally I think that spikes have this rusty color because it's an indication of the corrupted Scadrian souls being held inside them, but I'm not sure about the spectrum of the metal itself, with its big red spike. It can be either because it holds corrupted investiture (so an empty spike would emit a different color), or because Bavadinium naturally emits in red wavelength, as that may be Autonomy's color. Spoiler Blightsong How does corrupted investiture work, like Nightblood? Brandon Sanderson Oh, Nightblood. Again, this is a definition of what somebody feels is a corruption. For instance, there are spren that people would feel are corrupted. But that's corruption where the mixing of different Shards has changed things, and I think a lot of times when people say corruption, what they're meaning is the mixing of Shards' powers. Blightsong So is there a mixing of Shards' powers happening with Nightblood? Brandon Sanderson *smirks* RAFO. That's the natural question, I'm glad you asked it. Blightsong Ok, uhhh, so something similar is happening with Gavilar's sphere, right? Brandon Sanderson *contemplative silence* RAFO. OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016) Spoiler FirstSelector Does red in cosmere signify one Shard co-opting or corrupting another Shard's magic? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017) Spoiler Roger As I understand it, red is a sign of corruption in the cosmere. I just reread The Emperor's Soul, and it mentioned wisps of red smoke when Shai tests the Soulstamps. Does this mean she is corrupting Gaotona's soul? Brandon Sanderson Yes, that is what that means. Corruption doesn't have to have the negative connotation, right? Basically, it means an outside influence is changing the Spiritual nature of the soul. And, yeah, that's exactly what is happening right there. Now, I would call that a pretty good thing, but... like, all of those things, where she is playing with someone's soul, and changing it, and changing their past, and things like this. This is, by cosmere definition, corrupting someone's soul. That's expressly what it is. YouTube Livestream 10 (June 18, 2020) Big WoB, look at the bolded parts: Spoiler ReadAndFindOut In 2014, Brandon said First of the Sun - the planet in Sixth of the Dusk - is a minor Shardworld, in that it does not have a Shard present (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103-salt-lake-city-comic-con-2014/#e1010). However, we've now gotten a WoB saying that Patji - the Father island - IS a Shard (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8606). Patji was a Shard, but isn't during SotD? Or did we finally get confirmation on that elusive "Survival Shard"? What do you guys think? Brandon Sanderson I stand by them. Though, as always, quotes and WoBs at signings aren't always as deliberately thought out as I'd like them to be. Answering questions on the fly can be challenging, and my phrasing can be bad in retrospect. But no Shard was in residence on First of the Sun during the events of that story. The Investiture on that planet is residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium. Everything happening there could happen with or without a Shard present. Indeed, I would say that no Shard was ever "in residence" on First of the Sun. The being called Patji still exists, and is a Shard of Adonalsium. Shards in the past have been interested in First of the Sun, and have meddled in small ways there. (Like they have on a lot of Shardworlds.) Note that I might have been a little misleading in the first quote by bringing up Threnody, which is a real corner case in the cosmere because of uncommon events there. That said, I'm sure that every story I write about a planet will bring up the quirks and unusual interactions of the magic there, because that's kind of what I do. (First of the Sun has its own oddities, as mentioned in Arcanum Unbounded.) Every planet is likely to end up as a corner case in some way, just like every person is distinctive in their own way, and never fully fits expectations. I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" Shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor Shardworlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor Shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a Mistborn. But, as ever, the cosmere is a work in progress. The needs of telling a great story trump things I've said about what I'm planning. (I do try as much as I can to avoid having two texts contradict one another. And when they do, that's often a lapse on my part.) Oversleep Wait. I'm confused. So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium? Cause the question was a follow up (on this) where you revealed that all Investiture in Cosmere got assigned to a Shard even if it wasn't part of a Shard. And then you said that the one on First of the Sun is directly associated with one of the Shards (and since later you revealed Patji to be an avatar of Autonomy (also, what are avatars and how do they work?)) we took it to mean that at one point Autonomy Invested in First of the Sun. But now you're saying it didn't? If there was no Shard ever on First of the Sun but Patji is a Shard/avatar of a Shard then where is Patji, actually? Could you please clarify all that? Brandon Sanderson So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?" The reason I have so much trouble answering these questions (and you'll see me struggling to get an answer in the 10-15 seconds I have when someone asks me in a signing line) is because this isn't an either or. Is this computer I'm using matter associated with Earth, the Big Bang, or such-and-such star that went supernova long ago? Well, it's probably all three. When people ask, "What Shard is this Investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain Investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all Investiture ever predates the Shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and Investiture are one thing. I always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time. We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have. Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists. You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring. Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time. And...I'm already into WAY more than I want to be typing this out right now. If it's confusing, it's because it's practically impossible for me to explain these things in a short span of time. I'm going to leave it here, understanding that no, I haven't fully explained your question. (I didn't even get into what avatars are, what Patji was, and what happened to Patji the being--and how that relates to Patji the island.) But hopefully this kind of starts to point the right direction, though I probably should have just left this question alone because I bet this post is going to raise more questions than it answers... Overlord Jebus You've confused things so much now. We thought we had a pretty good grasp of this whole Patji situation (Autonomy visited the planet at some point, got themselves all Invested and created an avatar which is called Patji by the locals). Now you're saying no Shard has ever visited there? And that the pool would have existed if no Shard had ever interfered? But that Patji still exists and is a Shard? Does that mean Autonomy edited First of the Sun from afar without actually going there? And that the pool would have already existed without any intervention? Does this mean it was associated with Autonomy from the beginning? I'm really confused now. Brandon Sanderson I don't believe I said no Shard had visited. I said no Shard was there during the events of the story. Investiture on First of the Sun predates any Shards fiddling with it. Shards have fiddled with it by the time of the story. I think fandom might be going down too far a rabbit hole on this one. Chaos Are you saying here that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy, or is it a separate Shard and not an avatar of Autonomy? Brandon Sanderson When I said Patji was a Shard, I was meaning Automony--but it is not quite that simple. Take this post to mean "no, you should not be looking toward another Shard for Patji's origins. Autonomy is the one relevant." But Autonomy's relationships with entities like this (not sure entity is the right word, even) is complex. I'm not trying to confuse the issue, though. General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018) Spoiler Questioner I noticed during Oathbringer, is there a symbolism between the color red? Because I noticed that red is mentioned many times. Is it tied directly to the Thrill? Brandon Sanderson When I am using red specifically for spren and eye color, I'm doing it intentionally. It means something. I'm not gonna tell you what it means yet. Questioner Azure's cloth was red, and Adolin picked up a red glass sphere. Brandon Sanderson Some of that is going to be coincidence. But the color of the thing that is going to Scadrial is not coincidence. Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018) 1
Stormtide_Leviathan Posted February 13, 2024 Posted February 13, 2024 9 hours ago, alder24 said: It might be that because they are using Trellium spikes to steal Scadrian's souls (made out of Ruin and Preservation) and it corrupts those stolen pieces with Autonomy investiture - and that's where the red is coming from. So the redness in Trellium spikes would indicate that their charge was corrupted. Yeah I think this is true. (Or close to. Im more of the opinion that it's ruin investiture in the spike because hemalurgy is of ruin. So even if trellium was used to spike, say, a sandmaster I think it would still get red spots. Any godmetal used as a spike- other than atium, harmonium if you somehow could, and mayyybe lerasium at least post-harmony- would develop red spots). 1
alder24 Posted February 13, 2024 Posted February 13, 2024 7 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said: Yeah I think this is true. (Or close to. Im more of the opinion that it's ruin investiture in the spike because hemalurgy is of ruin. So even if trellium was used to spike, say, a sandmaster I think it would still get red spots. Any godmetal used as a spike- other than atium, harmonium if you somehow could, and mayyybe lerasium at least post-harmony- would develop red spots). That's also a possible explanation. It makes sense.
Treamayne Posted February 13, 2024 Posted February 13, 2024 20 hours ago, alder24 said: Personally I think that spikes have this rusty color because it's an indication of the corrupted Scadrian souls being held inside them, but I'm not sure about the spectrum of the metal itself, with its big red spike. It can be either because it holds corrupted investiture (so an empty spike would emit a different color), or because Bavadinium naturally emits in red wavelength, as that may be Autonomy's color. 10 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said: Yeah I think this is true. (Or close to. Im more of the opinion that it's ruin investiture in the spike because hemalurgy is of ruin. So even if trellium was used to spike, say, a sandmaster I think it would still get red spots. Any godmetal used as a spike- other than atium, harmonium if you somehow could, and maybe lerasium at least post-harmony- would develop red spots). I think Trellium =/= Bavadinium. I think it is more likely that "Trellium" is a Bavadinium alloy (maybe with Atium) and whatever the second metal is - the Bavadinium is changing it's nature (hence the corruption spots and red-heavy spectrum). If it were to be an Atium (Pure Atium) alloy, then that might explain the "Trellium seems to steal more than one quadrant - while also hiding from Harmony" thing; but would have required Autonomy's agents to have "stockpiled" some Atium before the events of TFE (back when the Pits were a thriving Shadesmar market for things like TLR's canned food). Somebody should ask Felt what else was smuggled through the Pits before the Kelsinado struck. 20 hours ago, alder24 said: Voidlight is not corrupted, it's pure raw investiture of Odium. We don't know this for sure (at least it might not have always been this way). It is possible that Voidlight is "purplish" because it was from before Odium was (fully) invested in the Rosharan System. After all, if he (Red) Corrupted Stormlight (Blue) to serve his purposes way back in the early desolations - Red+Blue=Purple (Physical media | as light Red + Blue = Magenta) which is also "influenced" by the Stygian nature of Odius colors.
Dofurion Posted February 13, 2024 Posted February 13, 2024 8 minutes ago, Treamayne said: It is possible that Voidlight is "purplish" because it was from before Odium was (fully) invested in the Rosharan System. After all, if he (Red) Corrupted Stormlight (Blue) to serve his purposes way back in the early desolations - Red+Blue=Purple (Physical media | as light Red + Blue = Magenta) which is also "influenced" by the Stygian nature of Odius colors. I would also like to point out that the coloration of the lights on Roshar may not be due so much to the Shards that occupy the system, but rather to the moons.
Treamayne Posted February 13, 2024 Posted February 13, 2024 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Dofurion said: I would also like to point out that the coloration of the lights on Roshar may not be due so much to the Shards that occupy the system, but rather to the moons. WoBs: Spoiler Quote Questioner Back to Stormlight. Is there significance to the color of moons? Brandon Sanderson Yes, there is a significance to the colors of the moons in Stormlight, but it is not a major player in theories. There is a significance, but it's not, like, one of these things that you're going to read book seven and be like "The colors of the moons! It was there all along!" Sometimes, I put stuff like that in, right? It's not like that. Oathbringer Glasgow signing (Dec. 2, 2017) Quote Tony Patrick Where did you get the idea to have multiple moons on Roshar? Brandon Sanderson I have no idea, it's gone back so far. I mean... Yeah, no idea. I like doing weird things with the cosmology and with planets and things like that. For the 2010 version, looking at the moons, I wanted to subtly indicate the presence of three gods and kind of subtly give some color scheme indications of them and things like that, but they aren't one to one. Just that idea, because everything was based around ten, I wanted some threes hanging around in the world building as well. YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021) The moon colors are likely references to the Shards, but more in the "worldbuilding" sense than the "Realmatic Importance" sense. Edited February 13, 2024 by Treamayne Clarity/SPAG
alder24 Posted February 13, 2024 Posted February 13, 2024 16 minutes ago, Treamayne said: I think Trellium =/= Bavadinium. I think it is more likely that "Trellium" is a Bavadinium alloy (maybe with Atium) and whatever the second metal is - the Bavadinium is changing it's nature (hence the corruption spots and red-heavy spectrum). I don't think so. Sazed calls it Bavadinium and that's the best confirmation we have right now. He would know if that was an alloy. TLM epilogue 4: Quote “It appears that if you detonate harmonium against trellium—or, I suppose bavadinium would be its true name [...]" 19 minutes ago, Treamayne said: We don't know this for sure (at least it might not have always been this way). It is possible that Voidlight is "purplish" because it was from before Odium was (fully) invested in the Rosharan System. After all, if he (Red) Corrupted Stormlight (Blue) to serve his purposes way back in the early desolations - Red+Blue=Purple (Physical media | as light Red + Blue = Magenta) which is also "influenced" by the Stygian nature of Odius colors. Odium at its core is a purple hatred (seen by Dalinar in OB ch Passion). Voidlight is black-purple. Odium is able to directly supply his Regals and Fused with Voidlight. Voidlight is resonating with the pure tone of Odium and that's the biggest evidence there is. I don't really see reasons to believe that Voidlight is not pure investiture of Odium, considering how it is used and described in books. 1
Treamayne Posted February 13, 2024 Posted February 13, 2024 (edited) 20 minutes ago, alder24 said: I don't think so. Sazed calls it Bavadinium and that's the best confirmation we have right now. He would know if that was an alloy. Right? Because Sazed Harmony is always so open and completely honest with his friends tools worshippers protagonists. I'm not saying either of us is right or wrong, I'm saying "this is something to consider - pending more information" 20 minutes ago, alder24 said: I don't really see reasons to believe that Voidlight is not pure investiture of Odium, considering how it is used and described in books. Which is why I said "at least it might not have always been this way" - Sure, over millenia Odium has become fully invested in Roshar and Voidlight is his "thing" - but before he was fully invested in Roshar, it is possible (if not probable) that Voidlight started as "let me change this Stormlight into something you can use." If pre-Invested OdiumSpren can be purple because his true color wasn't part of Roshar back then - then I think it is worth considering that Voidlight has a similar origin story, and now retains it's "shade" due to how it is perceived (even if it is now pure Odium). Just a consideration to discuss. . . Edited February 13, 2024 by Treamayne SPAG
Dofurion Posted February 13, 2024 Posted February 13, 2024 Hace 15 minutos, Treamayne dijo: The moon colors are likely references to the Shards, but more in the "worldbuilding" sense than the "Realmatic Importance" sense. This is one of the few things where I think Brandon has played dumb. As Roshar is configured now, we know that it is unstable, the moons change their axis 180° per day, and in addition to that the planet has no volcanic activity, which means that in principle it should not have a magnetosphere (therefore everyone should die from radiation). One proposal I have is that although the planet does not have a magnetic field, perhaps the moons do and the interaction between these fields is what causes the highstorm. In this case, all Odium had to do was invest enough in Roshar to include a third field on the unoccupied moon (Salas).
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