Wits instant noodles he/him Posted January 30, 2024 Posted January 30, 2024 the idea is if there is a perfect set of conjoined twins both who are fully functioning, so like two people just attached at the waist what would happen? like if one burned lerasium would they both be mistborns? Would they both get powers if they bonded a spren? what would happen if one got a hemalurgic spike? i dont think theres an answer here so i put it here instead of q and a just to see what y'all think 1
Returned he/him Posted January 30, 2024 Posted January 30, 2024 (edited) I think that the conjoined aspect would not matter. Cosmere magic all works via sprit webs, "spiritual DNA", and Identity. Conjoined twins would be two people, regardless of how they are physically arranged, so I don't think that what one does (like burning Lerasium) would impact the other directly. The one that does the magical thing is the one that gets the magical result. If the twins are totally independent save for sharing part of a pelvis I don't see how they would be just one person, Realmatically, and they would barely have any overlap in their bodies. There could be some more to it given that they share a body to some extent, though I think that the degree to which they are sharing physical structures would matter (especially to how they view themseleves). Like, if one can burn pewter Allomantically but the other can't, to the degree that they have the same body the effect would maybe cover both since there is only "one" body between them. But only the one can burn the metal: the one which is not an Allomancer can't just choose to start burning. At least, that's how I believe it would work in a generic case. You could also get some different results based on how they view their Identities (or Identity). If they view themselves as one person (or something similar to that), and have overlapping spirit webs, maybe something like both getting the benefits of one member burning Lerasium could happen. We don't really know. The closest analogue I can think of offhand isn't all that similar. Aimians are single individuals, as far as Identity is concerned, made up of an agglomeration of smaller, somewhat independent pieces. But I don't think that one piece of an Aimian is its own individual in the same way that one member of a set of conjoined twins would be, as described in the question. Edited January 30, 2024 by Returned 4
alder24 Posted January 30, 2024 Posted January 30, 2024 42 minutes ago, Wits instant noodles said: the idea is if there is a perfect set of conjoined twins both who are fully functioning, so like two people just attached at the waist what would happen? like if one burned lerasium would they both be mistborns? Would they both get powers if they bonded a spren? what would happen if one got a hemalurgic spike? i dont think theres an answer here so i put it here instead of q and a just to see what y'all think It would be weird. They should have separate spirit webs so certain things would be reserved only to one twin. But if one is a Radiant then he can heal the entire body, but the perception of the second non-Radiant twin will also matter and they can cancel out healing. If one were to burn Lerasium then only that twin would be a Mistborn and only they would be able to control their power and burning metals. Spikes would be messy because binding points are all messed up on their body and it would really depend on the intent during spiking and on the placement - if a spike is placed on the shared body part I suspect the intent would have to be super precise and choose the correct spirit web, if on the not-shared part then you probably can't place a spike there that would affect the other twin. Their view of themselves and their body would matter a lot - if their view their entire body and the second twin as themselves, actions like burning pewter or tapping pewter might affect the entire body - but that really depends how their spirit webs are attached. This is the only WoB about this topic and it involves healing: Spoiler DrogaKrolow We have this one bizarre question, that actually was really, really weird but we have to know it. There was a question about Siamese twins. If they were born gold Feruchemists, and they they were split apart, would they like, form together again? Brandon Sanderson Uhhhnn... It depends on how they view themselves DrogaKrolow That's the answer to every question like that! Brandon Sanderson Right! But that's the whole point of the cosmere is that-- Spiritual Realm is filtered through the Cognitive Realm to the Physical Realm, right? And this lens is going to filter how things work. Perception is really important in the cosmere. That's where most of these things come from, and so-- Yeah that is the answer to everything. But that's the point of the answer to everything, is that there aren't a lot of hard and fast rules when it comes to a lot of these things, with Identity and whatnot is going be filtered through perception. DrogaKrolow So it is technically possible for them, if they are seeing each other as one. Brandon Sanderson Right. DrogaKrolow So we can-- Brandon Sanderson Now the big hard question is, what if one of them views them as one and one of them doesn't? DrogaKrolow Oh. Brandon Sanderson Aaaaoooohhh! Then it depends on who's using the magic. DrogaKrolow What if both of them are? Brandon Sanderson Both of them what? Are gold? If both of them are healing and one doesn't want to and one does, magic's gonna cancel each other out and nothing will happen. DrogaKrolow Ok. Brandon Sanderson Mmhmm. Yeah I made your question harder and weirder. DrogaKrolow Well it was a very logical answer to a very unlogical question. Brandon Sanderson Yes. I've had to answer a lot of these. My feeling is that if I can make the fundamental magic principles work then you can answer those questions rationally but really what you would have to do is-- Even I'm not the expert on these things. Like I'm the ultimate word in some ways but in another ways the answer would be "I don't know, let's have a thought experiment and if it ever comes up, try it out and see what happens". But yeah, there you go. There is my best answer to you. DrogaKrolow.pl interview (March 17, 2017)
Quantus he/him Posted January 30, 2024 Posted January 30, 2024 30 minutes ago, alder24 said: It would be weird. They should have separate spirit webs so certain things would be reserved only to one twin. But if one is a Radiant then he can heal the entire body, but the perception of the second non-Radiant twin will also matter and they can cancel out healing. If one were to burn Lerasium then only that twin would be a Mistborn and only they would be able to control their power and burning metals. Spikes would be messy because binding points are all messed up on their body and it would really depend on the intent during spiking and on the placement - if a spike is placed on the shared body part I suspect the intent would have to be super precise and choose the correct spirit web, if on the not-shared part then you probably can't place a spike there that would affect the other twin. Their view of themselves and their body would matter a lot - if their view their entire body and the second twin as themselves, actions like burning pewter or tapping pewter might affect the entire body - but that really depends how their spirit webs are attached. This is the only WoB about this topic and it involves healing: Reveal hidden contents DrogaKrolow We have this one bizarre question, that actually was really, really weird but we have to know it. There was a question about Siamese twins. If they were born gold Feruchemists, and they they were split apart, would they like, form together again? Brandon Sanderson Uhhhnn... It depends on how they view themselves DrogaKrolow That's the answer to every question like that! Brandon Sanderson Right! But that's the whole point of the cosmere is that-- Spiritual Realm is filtered through the Cognitive Realm to the Physical Realm, right? And this lens is going to filter how things work. Perception is really important in the cosmere. That's where most of these things come from, and so-- Yeah that is the answer to everything. But that's the point of the answer to everything, is that there aren't a lot of hard and fast rules when it comes to a lot of these things, with Identity and whatnot is going be filtered through perception. DrogaKrolow So it is technically possible for them, if they are seeing each other as one. Brandon Sanderson Right. DrogaKrolow So we can-- Brandon Sanderson Now the big hard question is, what if one of them views them as one and one of them doesn't? DrogaKrolow Oh. Brandon Sanderson Aaaaoooohhh! Then it depends on who's using the magic. DrogaKrolow What if both of them are? Brandon Sanderson Both of them what? Are gold? If both of them are healing and one doesn't want to and one does, magic's gonna cancel each other out and nothing will happen. DrogaKrolow Ok. Brandon Sanderson Mmhmm. Yeah I made your question harder and weirder. DrogaKrolow Well it was a very logical answer to a very unlogical question. Brandon Sanderson Yes. I've had to answer a lot of these. My feeling is that if I can make the fundamental magic principles work then you can answer those questions rationally but really what you would have to do is-- Even I'm not the expert on these things. Like I'm the ultimate word in some ways but in another ways the answer would be "I don't know, let's have a thought experiment and if it ever comes up, try it out and see what happens". But yeah, there you go. There is my best answer to you. DrogaKrolow.pl interview (March 17, 2017) We know it's been asked a bunch whether a person can Bond multiple Spren and the answer is "Theoretically Yes," but has it ever been addressed whether a Spren can bond multiple actual Radiants (not just empower Squires) at the same time? Could a Spren Bond a Married couple, a set of Twins, or some other similarly Connected pair who share a spren and blade, etc?
Wits instant noodles he/him Posted January 30, 2024 Author Posted January 30, 2024 speaking of burning metals could one burn metals the other eats sense they share a body? cause like its there body kinda? 45 minutes ago, Returned said: save for sharing part of a pelvis i think results might also very based on how conjoined they are though because if its one body but two heads it might work different then just conjoined pelvises
Immortal Platypus Posted January 30, 2024 Posted January 30, 2024 I think it's relatively simple. I think if they view themselves as one, then they will share a spiritweb, so burning lerasium would make their shared spiritweb the spiritweb of a mistborn. I could definitely be wrong though.
alder24 Posted January 30, 2024 Posted January 30, 2024 51 minutes ago, Quantus said: We know it's been asked a bunch whether a person can Bond multiple Spren and the answer is "Theoretically Yes," but has it ever been addressed whether a Spren can bond multiple actual Radiants (not just empower Squires) at the same time? Could a Spren Bond a Married couple, a set of Twins, or some other similarly Connected pair who share a spren and blade, etc? I don't think it was asked. BAM certainly bonded multiple people at once but she was unique, even Radiants were surprised. 48 minutes ago, Wits instant noodles said: speaking of burning metals could one burn metals the other eats sense they share a body? cause like its there body kinda? Possible, depending on which body parts they share and their self-perception about what is "their" body. If they both consider the entirety of the body as theirs, that might work. 7 minutes ago, Immortal Platypus said: I think it's relatively simple. I think if they view themselves as one, then they will share a spiritweb, so burning lerasium would make their shared spiritweb the spiritweb of a mistborn. I could definitely be wrong though. They WON'T share a spirit web. Every person has a separate spirit web. So the one who mentally initiates burning of Lerasium will get the power.
Immortal Platypus Posted January 31, 2024 Posted January 31, 2024 3 hours ago, alder24 said: I don't think it was asked. BAM certainly bonded multiple people at once but she was unique, even Radiants were surprised. Possible, depending on which body parts they share and their self-perception about what is "their" body. If they both consider the entirety of the body as theirs, that might work. They WON'T share a spirit web. Every person has a separate spirit web. So the one who mentally initiates burning of Lerasium will get the power. oops. I misread a WOB and thought that it meant that twins in such a condition shared a spiritweb. I'll have to look closer next time.
MistbornMathematician Posted January 31, 2024 Posted January 31, 2024 6 hours ago, alder24 said: I don't think it was asked. BAM certainly bonded multiple people at once but she was unique, even Radiants were surprised. These are the WoBs I'm familiar with on the topic: Spoiler Questioner Is someone limited to how many Nahel bonds they can form, or could someone go play Pokéspren and catch them all, getting access to all Surges? Brandon Sanderson There are limits to what a soul can handle. These limits are soft caps, not hard caps. Pokéspren is theoretically possible, but there would be hoops, not just the normal "I want to bond two spren" hoop, which is already a pretty big one. YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022) Spoiler tganchero (paraphrased) Is it true that humans can bond to multiple spren? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) They can theoretically bond to multiple spren. Words of Radiance Lexington signing (March 18, 2014) Spoiler Questioner Can you have multiple spren? Brandon Sanderson Can you have multiple spren at once? This is theoretically possible, to have multiple spren. They would both have to agree, which might be difficult to get them... But it is possible. Good question. Someone may have done that already... It's pretty obvious, too. You should be able to figure out who that is from Rhythm of War. It's not two different Orders. Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023) Doesn't appear that as far as human-spren relations go, it's ever happened. Or at least that's the way he's phrasing it, which as we know could be tricky. 2 hours ago, Immortal Platypus said: oops. I misread a WOB and thought that it meant that twins in such a condition shared a spiritweb. I'll have to look closer next time. It's certainly reasonable to think that a sufficiently strong connection between two people, perhaps both of whom genuinely think of themselves as the "same person", could allow for some Connection-based spookyness. Perhaps it'd manifest as some kind of "twinsense", perhaps it wouldn't do much of anything at all, or perhaps it could actively copy/share capital-B Bonds.
Duxredux he/him Posted January 31, 2024 Posted January 31, 2024 I think there's a decent handle on this so far, so let's ask even weirder scenarios of the question! The conjoined twins live on Nalthis, one gets head trauma and dies heroically in battle (yeah, I know, unlikely to happen due to logistical limitations, but just suppose) and while the other twin is weeping over the loss of their lifelong companion. Endowment decides to send back the deceased twin as a Returned. Keeping in mind that Returned have their memories wiped and are influenced by the social view of bodily perfection, the Divine Breath comes down and strikes the deceased twin and...? The least complicated outcome I can think of is if Endowment includes the proper Intent (if this works) and the Divine Breath does double duty and splits the body into two complete and separate beings. One is Returned, the other has been healed by the passing kinetic Investiture to the social norm and gains a complete non-bifurcated body with the accompanying knowledge of how to use it, like how Susebron didn't need to learn how to talk when healed by Lightsong. This doesn't have to be the only outcome though. Alternately with no intervention from Endowment, the living twin is pragmatic and desperate to get off the battlefield alive and tries to use their single Breath to create a Lifeless from their dead twin. After we discuss how that goes and what degree of control they share with a Lifeless sharing a body if it works at all, they later get their hands on a Feruchemical Gold Medallion with this WoB in mind: Quote AndyGranny If you used a Lifeless body, would a Lifeless be able to access an untapped metalmind... Brandon Sanderson An unkeyed type of metalmind? AndyGranny Thank you, I could not think of that word. Would they be able to access an unkeyed metalmind if the intent when the Lifeless was created, if the intent was that they could... Brandon Sanderson Right, I see what you're getting at. Yes, they could. As they could access and use any tool that is appropriate for what they're Commanded to do, they could indeed access a metalmind in the same way. In fact, doing so may, depending on the metalmind, be dangerous for keeping your Lifeless a Lifeless. JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021) Add in Ulaam's experience of eating a two-headed reptile and discovering he couldn't split his mind or think faster. For this one, it's weird because the Spiritweb of the dead twin is absent and is then replaced with a surrogate Spiritweb from the living twin. The Surrogate Spiritweb and the original Spiritweb would be touching at the bifurcation and you should have an entire body with the same DNA matching with the sDNA of the soul(s) occupying the whole body. Would they gain conscious control over the Lifeless half without need for spoken Command? Would they be able to sense as a Lifeless senses? I'm not worried about the sustainability of a half Lifeless body just yet, I'm wondering about at least the first few hours for the twin. 1
alder24 Posted January 31, 2024 Posted January 31, 2024 7 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: These are the WoBs I'm familiar with on the topic: Doesn't appear that as far as human-spren relations go, it's ever happened. Or at least that's the way he's phrasing it, which as we know could be tricky. The question was about one spren bonding multiple knights. 58 minutes ago, Duxredux said: I think there's a decent handle on this so far, so let's ask even weirder scenarios of the question! The conjoined twins live on Nalthis, one gets head trauma and dies heroically in battle (yeah, I know, unlikely to happen due to logistical limitations, but just suppose) and while the other twin is weeping over the loss of their lifelong companion. Endowment decides to send back the deceased twin as a Returned. Keeping in mind that Returned have their memories wiped and are influenced by the social view of bodily perfection, the Divine Breath comes down and strikes the deceased twin and...? Oh boy. This is still a form of healing. It will depend on how they both see each other, but most importantly how the soon-to-be-Returned sees their body. Spoiler Phantine If a heroic guy was also an organ donor, what happens to his original organs when he Returns? Will the recipient's heart grow three sizes that day? Brandon Sanderson Ha. Not a question I'd anticipated, but the body is healed when made Returned, so anything missing would be regrown. So everything is fine. Stormlight Three Update #4 (Sept. 27, 2016) However a Divine Breath is a piece of divinity, it brings you closer to the ideal image of a person, thus the healing might be so strong that it will grant them separate bodies no matter their perception - I find this unlikely because of how influential perception is and even a Divine Breath healing can't ignore that. It's also possible that Endowment just creates a separate body in this case. Spoiler Kurkistan Are flamespren, are they all doing their own thing, or is there some Ideal of "Fire" sitting in the Spiritual Realm that they're all based on? Brandon Sanderson Each spren is based on the Ideal of Fire. Kurkistan And is that sitting in the Spiritual Realm? Brandon Sanderson Yes, we're using sort of a Platonic Ideal, and that concept is in force, so *sounds hesitant* "yes", but [spren] are manifestations of it. Kurkistan So these Ideals in the Spiritual Realm: Divine Breath, does that heal by accessing some Ideal of Human Health: so a guy who had never had a tongue and doesn't know how to speak all the sudden has a tongue and can speak? Brandon Sanderson You are... *LONG pause* You are, um, on the right track. Kurkistan Okay. Brandon Sanderson Because the Breath is... eh. How can I explain this? You are, yeah... So... So each Breath is a shade of deity, right? Kurkistan Yeah. Brandon Sanderson And each Breath incorporates into it this sort of idea of being endowed by the deity Endowment, correct? Kurkistan Yes. Brandon Sanderson And so each Breath you hold brings you one step closer to becoming like that, and so what you're saying is... is "yes", kind of true, yes. Kurkistan But it's like within the Breath, not sitting off by itself- Brandon Sanderson Yes, yes yes exactly. Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014) Spoiler Questioner Given Sanderson's Laws about limitations... Brandon Sanderson Yes. Questioner What would you say are any spiritual, cognitive, and or physical limitations to a Returned's healing ability? Brandon Sanderson That they can do it once. Questioner That they can do it once, and that's it? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, right? The Returned get one heal and then they die. That's a pretty big limitation. Like you have to choose really well. However, what they can heal is bounded by cosmere limitations on healing, but it is a supercharged version. Questioner Okay. Could you define more cosmere limitations on healing? Brandon Sanderson Cosmere limitations on healing can be affected by your own perception. Questioner Okay. Cognitive stuff. Brandon Sanderson Cognitive stuff. And so there's a part of that, and... But that's really-- cognitive interferes. And if your spirit is gone? Right? Cosmere healing, you know, if your spirit is passed on you just get a dead body even though you've healed it. Questioner So potentially Vasher, having a much greater cosmere knowledge than others could potentially have a much greater usage of that healing than regular-- Brandon Sanderson Well the healing-- What I mean by that is yourself. You impose limits. So the person being healed can impose some limits on the healing working. It doesn't happen as often as I'm making it sound. But, you know-- why Kaladin's scars have not healed, right? So Kaladin being hit by a Returned would still not heal his scars. He's got a major hangup about those scars. Footnote: The questioner seems to have been asking about cosmere healing in general for Returned, but Brandon focused on their ability to give up their Divine Breath to heal somebody else. Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016) 1 hour ago, Duxredux said: Alternately with no intervention from Endowment, the living twin is pragmatic and desperate to get off the battlefield alive and tries to use their single Breath to create a Lifeless from their dead twin. After we discuss how that goes and what degree of control they share with a Lifeless sharing a body if it works at all, they later get their hands on a Feruchemical Gold Medallion with this WoB in mind: Quote AndyGranny If you used a Lifeless body, would a Lifeless be able to access an untapped metalmind... Brandon Sanderson An unkeyed type of metalmind? AndyGranny Thank you, I could not think of that word. Would they be able to access an unkeyed metalmind if the intent when the Lifeless was created, if the intent was that they could... Brandon Sanderson Right, I see what you're getting at. Yes, they could. As they could access and use any tool that is appropriate for what they're Commanded to do, they could indeed access a metalmind in the same way. In fact, doing so may, depending on the metalmind, be dangerous for keeping your Lifeless a Lifeless. JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021) Add in Ulaam's experience of eating a two-headed reptile and discovering he couldn't split his mind or think faster. For this one, it's weird because the Spiritweb of the dead twin is absent and is then replaced with a surrogate Spiritweb from the living twin. The Surrogate Spiritweb and the original Spiritweb would be touching at the bifurcation and you should have an entire body with the same DNA matching with the sDNA of the soul(s) occupying the whole body. Would they gain conscious control over the Lifeless half without need for spoken Command? Would they be able to sense as a Lifeless senses? I'm not worried about the sustainability of a half Lifeless body just yet, I'm wondering about at least the first few hours for the twin. I see a problem with this - it all depends on how their bodies are connected together. They can share a blood circulation - I mean one heart can carry blood everywhere - thus the body won't be considered dead, so you might not be able to make a Lifeless at all. I think for this to work the dead twin's body has to be truly dead and decaying - and that would kill the other twin really fast. I don't think the living twin would get control over the Lifeless part because identity is different - Lifeless have different identities when they're created, they would remain separate entities. But adding proper healing to the mix and I have no idea what might happen - it's likely you would bring the dead twin back because while his spirit web is really gone, the body has a spirit web of its own and "remembers" - and that might created some kind of weirdness and bring an imprint of that person back. But those ideas are so weird that anything can happen. 1
Immortal Platypus Posted January 31, 2024 Posted January 31, 2024 10 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: It's certainly reasonable to think that a sufficiently strong connection between two people, perhaps both of whom genuinely think of themselves as the "same person", could allow for some Connection-based spookyness. Perhaps it'd manifest as some kind of "twinsense", perhaps it wouldn't do much of anything at all, or perhaps it could actively copy/share capital-B Bonds. yes, but they probably wouldn't have the same spiritweb, which is where these change occur. They could, however, probably have some weird things happen. I'm not entirely sure but it sounds like something that could happen
Duxredux he/him Posted January 31, 2024 Posted January 31, 2024 21 minutes ago, alder24 said: Oh boy. This is still a form of healing. It will depend on how they both see each other, but most importantly how the soon-to-be-Returned sees their body. Hide contents Phantine If a heroic guy was also an organ donor, what happens to his original organs when he Returns? Will the recipient's heart grow three sizes that day? Brandon Sanderson Ha. Not a question I'd anticipated, but the body is healed when made Returned, so anything missing would be regrown. So everything is fine. Stormlight Three Update #4 (Sept. 27, 2016) However a Divine Breath is a piece of divinity, it brings you closer to the ideal image of a person, thus the healing might be so strong that it will grant them separate bodies no matter their perception - I find this unlikely because of how influential perception is and even a Divine Breath healing can't ignore that. It's also possible that Endowment just creates a separate body in this case. Reveal hidden contents Kurkistan Are flamespren, are they all doing their own thing, or is there some Ideal of "Fire" sitting in the Spiritual Realm that they're all based on? Brandon Sanderson Each spren is based on the Ideal of Fire. Kurkistan And is that sitting in the Spiritual Realm? Brandon Sanderson Yes, we're using sort of a Platonic Ideal, and that concept is in force, so *sounds hesitant* "yes", but [spren] are manifestations of it. Kurkistan So these Ideals in the Spiritual Realm: Divine Breath, does that heal by accessing some Ideal of Human Health: so a guy who had never had a tongue and doesn't know how to speak all the sudden has a tongue and can speak? Brandon Sanderson You are... *LONG pause* You are, um, on the right track. Kurkistan Okay. Brandon Sanderson Because the Breath is... eh. How can I explain this? You are, yeah... So... So each Breath is a shade of deity, right? Kurkistan Yeah. Brandon Sanderson And each Breath incorporates into it this sort of idea of being endowed by the deity Endowment, correct? Kurkistan Yes. Brandon Sanderson And so each Breath you hold brings you one step closer to becoming like that, and so what you're saying is... is "yes", kind of true, yes. Kurkistan But it's like within the Breath, not sitting off by itself- Brandon Sanderson Yes, yes yes exactly. Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014) Reveal hidden contents Questioner Given Sanderson's Laws about limitations... Brandon Sanderson Yes. Questioner What would you say are any spiritual, cognitive, and or physical limitations to a Returned's healing ability? Brandon Sanderson That they can do it once. Questioner That they can do it once, and that's it? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, right? The Returned get one heal and then they die. That's a pretty big limitation. Like you have to choose really well. However, what they can heal is bounded by cosmere limitations on healing, but it is a supercharged version. Questioner Okay. Could you define more cosmere limitations on healing? Brandon Sanderson Cosmere limitations on healing can be affected by your own perception. Questioner Okay. Cognitive stuff. Brandon Sanderson Cognitive stuff. And so there's a part of that, and... But that's really-- cognitive interferes. And if your spirit is gone? Right? Cosmere healing, you know, if your spirit is passed on you just get a dead body even though you've healed it. Questioner So potentially Vasher, having a much greater cosmere knowledge than others could potentially have a much greater usage of that healing than regular-- Brandon Sanderson Well the healing-- What I mean by that is yourself. You impose limits. So the person being healed can impose some limits on the healing working. It doesn't happen as often as I'm making it sound. But, you know-- why Kaladin's scars have not healed, right? So Kaladin being hit by a Returned would still not heal his scars. He's got a major hangup about those scars. Footnote: The questioner seems to have been asking about cosmere healing in general for Returned, but Brandon focused on their ability to give up their Divine Breath to heal somebody else. Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016) I see a problem with this - it all depends on how their bodies are connected together. They can share a blood circulation - I mean one heart can carry blood everywhere - thus the body won't be considered dead, so you might not be able to make a Lifeless at all. I think for this to work the dead twin's body has to be truly dead and decaying - and that would kill the other twin really fast. I don't think the living twin would get control over the Lifeless part because identity is different - Lifeless have different identities when they're created, they would remain separate entities. But adding proper healing to the mix and I have no idea what might happen - it's likely you would bring the dead twin back because while his spirit web is really gone, the body has a spirit web of its own and "remembers" - and that might created some kind of weirdness and bring an imprint of that person back. But those ideas are so weird that anything can happen. Yup, that all tracks with what we've seen so far and the WoBs we've been given. I want to dig a little deeper on the Lifeless scenario though, since that one is really weird and is an edge case on a lot of the Realmatic concepts and I want to challenge some of the assumptions that Brandon has lead us to believe. I'll bold the topics. The body is not fully dead and may not be in the proper condition to become a Lifeless I'll split my response in two parts. Regardless of whether or not the body is dead, it still can be a valid target for a bestowal of Breath. It doesn't need to be dead to be given a Breath, and the Lifeless Command phrase doesn't stipulate that the original is dead, though it does tell it live. It's also possible for a person to utilize their Breath internally (Vasher teaching Nanrovah's daughter how to modify her memory) and for a person to Invest a Breath inside of themselves (at least in the case of Vasher suppressing his Divine Breath). Do these factors play into this scenario where the body is a shared unit? The fact that the body is not fully deceased is likely accurate. The follow up question is does it really need to be? What if the necessary components were really just a body or something similar that is very closely adjacent to Life, and something that doesn't have an existing Spiritweb or something providing cognitive function that the Breath would become subservient to? The vast majority of cases the easiest resource for this is just a dead body, but just because it's the most commonly used doesn't mean that it's the only one that works. The part where the color of the body is consumed to power the transformation of a Lifeless isn't unique to Lifeless, Nightblood draws color from living flesh and Vasher was able to use his own blood pouring from a wound as fuel for Awakening. Why does the Identity of the Breath change when Investing a person or a Lifeless? I'll ask a follow up question: what does the Identity of a Breath used to Awaken a Lifeless change itself to? The answer for a living person is pretty straight forward, what changes with the deceased? Let's start with the familiarity principle we learn with Soulstamps. This scenario might share a lot of similarities with Shai's work to revive Ashravan. Now there's some debate as to whether or not Ashravan's Spiritweb left his body, but it likely fits the same uncertainties as this scenario, where you have a body kept functionally alive despite being in a practically vegetative state. We learn from Soulstamping that the body still remembers the original soul and that stamping both the body and those close to the original person can increase the chances to create a Soulstamp that works for the body - so presumably the surrogate Spiritweb also more closely resembles the original soul. With a Breath, it's Endowment's power, and in this case the body has enough residual ties to the original Spiritweb that when a Lifeless is created the Breath aligns itself to the previous Spiritweb, but with residuals left over from the first owner of the Breath as well as a backdoor hardwired into the soul (like what Frava suggested they do to Ashravan). Basically the Breath aligns itself with the Identity of the previous owner either from the body's familiarity with the original soul, or from the familiarity of the body itself. So how does that work when the body is shared by another person? The DNA is identical between the two twins, there's the familiarity principle more closely aligning them, and there may have been overlap or merging with their Spiritwebs. The Breath used to Awaken a Lifeless would likely try to align itself to the deceased twin... or would it be realigned to the Spiritweb of the living twin? I dunno. Yeah, this one is funky, but again, it hits enough of the edge scenarios of Connection, Identity, familiarity, and Spiritwebs that it could be really interesting to ask this as a WoB. 1
alder24 Posted January 31, 2024 Posted January 31, 2024 11 minutes ago, Duxredux said: I'll split my response in two parts. Regardless of whether or not the body is dead, it still can be a valid target for a bestowal of Breath. It doesn't need to be dead to be given a Breath, and the Lifeless Command phrase doesn't stipulate that the original is dead, though it does tell it live. Living things can't be Awakened. Sure you can modify memories and do those sorts of Awakenings but not type 2 or 3 (and definitely not 4). 13 minutes ago, Duxredux said: The fact that the body is not fully deceased is likely accurate. The follow up question is does it really need to be? What if the necessary components were really just a body or something similar that is very closely adjacent to Life, and something that doesn't have an existing Spiritweb or something providing cognitive function that the Breath would become subservient to? Possible. 16 minutes ago, Duxredux said: I'll ask a follow up question: what does the Identity of a Breath used to Awaken a Lifeless change itself to? It's not the Identity of the dead person and not the identity of the Awakener - it has to do something with the body (being invested in the moment of the death like Arsteel was?) rather than a given Breath, but if the Breath used to belong to the dead person it can help: Spoiler Oudeis16 If Bob the Awakener Awakened fifty straw men to dance around, then died, then Returned as FormerBob the Appropriately Named, would FormerBob be able to reclaim the Breath from the straw men in the normal fashion (once he learned the "Your Breath to Mine" Command)? Brandon Sanderson Yes. He has enough of his original Identity, and the spiritual connection would remain. sonofstannis What if he instead were reincarnated as a lifeless? Is there a way he could reclaim it then? Brandon Sanderson Lifeless have someone else's investiture replacing their own. (As opposed to Returned, who are augmented.) Depends on how much of them is left, and if they can achieve sapience again, but I'd say this is unlikely. WeiryWriter What if the Lifeless is Awakened with their own Breath? (i.e. they gave it away right before they died and the person they gave it to then used it in the Awakening) Brandon Sanderson This has happened already in the world, and it does help. -Nayrb Did this happen "on screen"? Brandon Sanderson RAFO. /r/books AMA 2015 (July 30, 2015) Spoiler Joeh42 In Warbreaker, is Clod the Lifeless body of Arsteel? I like this idea because Arsteel would have had some Breaths within him when he died, as this is how Vashir defeated him and Denth, and this could help explain why he seems to be a little more self-aware than most Lifeless. Could you respond to this idea? Brandon Sanderson I confirmed in the Warbreaker annotations that Clod is Arsteel. Clod is more self-aware than most Lifeless. There is something left of Arsteel within Clod. The Breaths that Vasher gave him when he killed him do have an effect on this. Tor.com Q&A with Brandon Sanderson (Jan. 10, 2011) 21 minutes ago, Duxredux said: Let's start with the familiarity principle we learn with Soulstamps. This scenario might share a lot of similarities with Shai's work to revive Ashravan. Now there's some debate as to whether or not Ashravan's Spiritweb left his body, but it likely fits the same uncertainties as this scenario, where you have a body kept functionally alive despite being in a practically vegetative state. We learn from Soulstamping that the body still remembers the original soul and that stamping both the body and those close to the original person can increase the chances to create a Soulstamp that works for the body - so presumably the surrogate Spiritweb also more closely resembles the original soul. With a Breath, it's Endowment's power, and in this case the body has enough residual ties to the original Spiritweb that when a Lifeless is created the Breath aligns itself to the previous Spiritweb, but with residuals left over from the first owner of the Breath as well as a backdoor hardwired into the soul (like what Frava suggested they do to Ashravan). Basically the Breath aligns itself with the Identity of the previous owner either from the body's familiarity with the original soul, or from the familiarity of the body itself. So as presented above, it's possible to create a Lifeless whose Breath will have the same identity that the dead person had, but this is hard. The original Breath which belonged to that person helps, being invested in the moment of the death helps too, but you need to somehow have "something more of the dead person left in the body" too - which is as vague as possible and I can't really think of any proper realmatic mechanic that would make it work. Maybe Awakening a very fresh corpse would help as well? Or maybe a very special Lifeless Command or precise Intent during Awakening would help too? I don't really know but that's a crucial part of it. But normally Breath doesn't align itself to the original spirit web, because it's gone. It makes something new, maybe partially aligned but not fully, thus identity is not the same.
bmcclure7 Posted February 1, 2024 Posted February 1, 2024 On 1/30/2024 at 2:32 PM, alder24 said: It would be weird. They should have separate spirit webs so certain things would be reserved only to one twin. But if one is a Radiant then he can heal the entire body, but the perception of the second non-Radiant twin will also matter and they can cancel out healing. If one were to burn Lerasium then only that twin would be a Mistborn and only they would be able to control their power and burning metals. Spikes would be messy because binding points are all messed up on their body and it would really depend on the intent during spiking and on the placement - if a spike is placed on the shared body part I suspect the intent would have to be super precise and choose the correct spirit web, if on the not-shared part then you probably can't place a spike there that would affect the other twin. Their view of themselves and their body would matter a lot - if their view their entire body and the second twin as themselves, actions like burning pewter or tapping pewter might affect the entire body - but that really depends how their spirit webs are attached. This is the only WoB about this topic and it involves healing: Reveal hidden contents DrogaKrolow We have this one bizarre question, that actually was really, really weird but we have to know it. There was a question about Siamese twins. If they were born gold Feruchemists, and they they were split apart, would they like, form together again? Brandon Sanderson Uhhhnn... It depends on how they view themselves DrogaKrolow That's the answer to every question like that! Brandon Sanderson Right! But that's the whole point of the cosmere is that-- Spiritual Realm is filtered through the Cognitive Realm to the Physical Realm, right? And this lens is going to filter how things work. Perception is really important in the cosmere. That's where most of these things come from, and so-- Yeah that is the answer to everything. But that's the point of the answer to everything, is that there aren't a lot of hard and fast rules when it comes to a lot of these things, with Identity and whatnot is going be filtered through perception. DrogaKrolow So it is technically possible for them, if they are seeing each other as one. Brandon Sanderson Right. DrogaKrolow So we can-- Brandon Sanderson Now the big hard question is, what if one of them views them as one and one of them doesn't? DrogaKrolow Oh. Brandon Sanderson Aaaaoooohhh! Then it depends on who's using the magic. DrogaKrolow What if both of them are? Brandon Sanderson Both of them what? Are gold? If both of them are healing and one doesn't want to and one does, magic's gonna cancel each other out and nothing will happen. DrogaKrolow Ok. Brandon Sanderson Mmhmm. Yeah I made your question harder and weirder. DrogaKrolow Well it was a very logical answer to a very unlogical question. Brandon Sanderson Yes. I've had to answer a lot of these. My feeling is that if I can make the fundamental magic principles work then you can answer those questions rationally but really what you would have to do is-- Even I'm not the expert on these things. Like I'm the ultimate word in some ways but in another ways the answer would be "I don't know, let's have a thought experiment and if it ever comes up, try it out and see what happens". But yeah, there you go. There is my best answer to you. DrogaKrolow.pl interview (March 17, 2017) Your assuming that they would still be conjoined if one bonded a Spren but if they see each other as separate shouldn't the bond make it so?
alder24 Posted February 1, 2024 Posted February 1, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said: Your assuming that they would still be conjoined if one bonded a Spren but if they see each other as separate shouldn't the bond make it so? I'm not assuming anything. If they both see each other as separate then the healing would make them that. But if one of them views themselves as being together then nothing would happen. WoB explains this situation. Edited February 1, 2024 by alder24 1
MistbornMathematician Posted February 2, 2024 Posted February 2, 2024 On 1/31/2024 at 7:50 AM, alder24 said: The question was about one spren bonding multiple knights. And all I was able to find on the topic of one soul allowing multiple Nahel bonds was human-oriented, which doesn't even appear to have happened. So not a lot of evidence. On 1/31/2024 at 9:55 AM, Immortal Platypus said: yes, but they probably wouldn't have the same spiritweb, which is where these change occur. They could, however, probably have some weird things happen. I'm not entirely sure but it sounds like something that could happen Oh absolutely. We also know that they would have a different Identity. As for the weird things, we haven't seen any identical twins in the Cosmere, have we? Or am I forgetting someone? 1
alder24 Posted February 2, 2024 Posted February 2, 2024 6 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Oh absolutely. We also know that they would have a different Identity. As for the weird things, we haven't seen any identical twins in the Cosmere, have we? Or am I forgetting someone? It's possible for identical twins to have the same identity, because they would have the same DNA. It isn't assured but it seems to be possible, their sDNA can still differ: Spoiler Phantine So... CS question here, I'm seeing identity as essentially a 'encryption' on the metalmind - the spike has the decryption key to existing metalminds, but when you encrypt a new one you use your personal encryption key with the spike's hardware, so you still have compounding access to the metalminds even after removing the spike. Is it possible for there to be a 'key collision' with Identity? Two people just randomly end up making compatible metalminds, because the pieces of their Identities that the magic looks like happen to be the same. Brandon Sanderson This would be about as likely as two unrelated people ending up with the exact same genetic sequence. But, so far as I understand, that WOULD be possible. Lucadaw So identical twins could share metalminds ? Brandon Sanderson RAFO. Worldbuilders AMA (Dec. 9, 2015) Spoiler Questioner (paraphrased) If two people are identical twins, and one is a Mistborn, will the second be Mistborn? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) No. They could have different Spiritual DNA. Ancient Lunch Q&A (July 31, 2010)
Immortal Platypus Posted February 3, 2024 Posted February 3, 2024 On 2/1/2024 at 11:29 PM, MistbornMathematician said: And all I was able to find on the topic of one soul allowing multiple Nahel bonds was human-oriented, which doesn't even appear to have happened. So not a lot of evidence. Oh absolutely. We also know that they would have a different Identity. As for the weird things, we haven't seen any identical twins in the Cosmere, have we? Or am I forgetting someone? i don't think we've seen any
bmcclure7 Posted February 6, 2024 Posted February 6, 2024 On 2/1/2024 at 12:32 PM, alder24 said: I'm not assuming anything. If they both see each other as separate then the healing would make them that. But if one of them views themselves as being together then nothing would happen. WoB explains this situation. But if they saw themselves as together shouldn't the stormlight and surgebing work for both.
alder24 Posted February 6, 2024 Posted February 6, 2024 22 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said: But if they saw themselves as together shouldn't the stormlight and surgebing work for both. No because their spirit webs are still separate and will remain separate no matter their perception. Those abilities are tied to their spirit webs. If a spren bonds one of the twins, then it means spren bonds the spirit web of one of the twins and only that twin can Surgebind.
bmcclure7 Posted February 6, 2024 Posted February 6, 2024 43 minutes ago, alder24 said: No because their spirit webs are still separate and will remain separate no matter their perception. Those abilities are tied to their spirit webs. If a spren bonds one of the twins, then it means spren bonds the spirit web of one of the twins and only that twin can Surgebind. Would that also apply to stormlight healing.?
alder24 Posted February 6, 2024 Posted February 6, 2024 13 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said: Would that also apply to stormlight healing.? No, look at the WoB again. Healing is filtered through your perception and if they both consider this body to be shared and theirs together, then healing should affect the entire body. If they have different identities then it might limit it. 1
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