What would happen if a shardblade were to only partially cut through a limb or the neck ?

[Craiko she/her]

I've had this pop up in my mind yesterday when re-reading the Prologue "To Kill" of WoK. What if a shardblade, either a dead one (the ones that take 10 heartbeats to summon) or the ones that are still alive (such as Syl) were to cut through only 1 centimetre or 2 through the skin or an arm, for example.

Let's set up an in-universe scenario: Kaladin summons Syl as a scalpel and, on a willing Radiant that can then restore whatever was damaged, cuts through only partially. Would it be different if the scalpel were to penetrate the skin from the tip, or if it was more like an incision ?

I already asked this question on the 17th Shard discord, and someone said that it would probably kill the nerves. If that is how it works, then the answer would be that the cut would make the person only lose feeling wherever the shardblade cut through, not the entire limb.

 

Additionally, it's very early on established that cutting through the neck kills instantly. What if the neck is only cut halfway through ? Only a quarter through ?

 

I don't know if this question has ever been asked, for I'm sorry if it has been.

[Voidlit Man he/him]

I think it still hurts, but doesn't kill. For example, Kaladin stabs the pursuer at the beggining of the second book, and tries to stab his gemheart. The Pursuer has to expend voidlight to heal it, but it doesn't seem to do any permanent damage to him. I know it's different circumstances, but that would be my guess. You might loose some function, but would still keep the limb.

EDIT: WOB

airsicklowlanders

If someone shaves with a shardrazor is that shave their last shave?

Brandon Sanderson

No, not unless you cut down beneath the skin--so nicks maybe would be a problem...

Jimbyl

Would a living spren be able to choose whether or not they cut something? Like could Syl make herself cut nonliving objects without also harming living things? If that's possible, could that go even farther and make it so a radiant's blade could only harm specific targets?

I'm starting to think up a ridiculous scenario where a radiant cuts through an ally without harming them to get to an enemy.

Brandon Sanderson

As it stands, no, this is not possible. (Sorry.) It's possible the spren could dismiss in time, then reappear on the other side, and FAKE that they'd done this--but couldn't simply choose not to do damage while cutting someone.

General Reddit 2017 (Dec. 18, 2017)

I know this is only tangentally related, but it does seem like it interferes with the function of the area at least a little, while still not killing the person.

Edited January 18, 2024 by Voidlit Man

[alder24]

26 minutes ago, Craiko said:

I've had this pop up in my mind yesterday when re-reading the Prologue "To Kill" of WoK. What if a shardblade, either a dead one (the ones that take 10 heartbeats to summon) or the ones that are still alive (such as Syl) were to cut through only 1 centimetre or 2 through the skin or an arm, for example.

Let's set up an in-universe scenario: Kaladin summons Syl as a scalpel and, on a willing Radiant that can then restore whatever was damaged, cuts through only partially. Would it be different if the scalpel were to penetrate the skin from the tip, or if it was more like an incision ?

I already asked this question on the 17th Shard discord, and someone said that it would probably kill the nerves. If that is how it works, then the answer would be that the cut would make the person only lose feeling wherever the shardblade cut through, not the entire limb.

We've seen scenes like this, particularly in WoR Kaladin vs Szeth fight. I don't know if it's about severing nerves, there is nothing on this, but it is confirmed to be about severing the soul fully. Partial cuts to the body parts seem to do no big damage and leave the limb/body part functioning but the soul in that place has now a hole in it. It still hurts. In my opinion if you cut a limb only partially, the soul isn't severed and the limb would be still alive but its functionality might be decreased, depending which part was damaged - like a muscle cut right in the middle probably won't be functioning well, but if it passes through the vital nerve it might partially paralyze your limb. 

WoR ch 86:

Quote

The assassin cursed, but responded with his Blade. A shield was in Kaladin’s hand a split second later, and he slammed away the attack. Syl shattered even as he did so, forming back into a sword as Kaladin thrust forward with empty hands. The sword appeared, and the weapon bit deeply into Szeth’s shoulder.
The assassin’s eyes widened. Kaladin twisted his Blade, pulling it out of the assassin’s flesh, then tried a backhand to end the man permanently. Szeth was too fast. He Lashed himself backward, forcing Kaladin to follow, piling on Lashing after Lashing.
Szeth’s hand still worked. Damnation. The strike to the shoulder hadn’t fully severed the soul leading to the arm. And Kaladin’s Stormlight was running out.

RoW ch 6:

Quote

Then—while Leshwi was reacting to the failed block—he stabbed forward, the spear forming as he did so, and slammed it straight into—
Pain.
Leshwi had brought her spear around to strike precisely as he did. Her weapon hit him in the shoulder, mirroring where he’d struck her opposite shoulder. He felt his Stormlight draining away, leeched into the spear; it felt as if his very soul was being drawn out. He held on, sucking in all the remaining Light from the recharged spheres in his pouches—then forced his spear deeper into her wound until tears leaked from the corners of her eyes.
Leshwi smiled. He grinned back, a full-toothed grin, even while she was draining away his life.
He yanked away almost at the same moment she did. She immediately put her free hand to her wound, and Kaladin shivered. [...]
Indeed, she smiled, then—her off hand still pressed to her wound—she held out her own spear and pointed the tip downward. 

Here we see Leshwi was wounded in the shoulder and it was painful to the point of tears. It didn't immobilize her entire arm, but she kept her hand on the wound afterwards. I think that this particular body part, where the spear was, is now gray and dead. There probably are other examples in books but I can remember only these two.

Where a Shardblade strikes, it will kill the body on its way - a small cut done by a sword won't do much damage, some muscles with a dead part in the middle for example. A spear that twists will kill basically a cone-shaped region of a body. Only a full and clean cut through the limb will fully kill a limb.

I'm not entirely sure what would happen if you cut an arm to the main nerve only but not fully through it. Would it be fully paralyzed without killing it and making it gray? Would it not be paralyzed and be somewhat functional because your soul is still connected? From the examples we’ve seen it seems that cutting through a nerve would kill it and lead to paralyzation, especially considering what a cut to the spine does but connected soul is important enough to change the outcome. A cut through the spine seems to cut your soul's Connection to the body entirely rather than fully paralyzing you.

38 minutes ago, Craiko said:

Additionally, it's very early on established that cutting through the neck kills instantly. What if the neck is only cut halfway through ? Only a quarter through ?

You need to sever the spine specifically. If you won't cut the spine, it won't kill you. 

[Craiko she/her]

29 minutes ago, Voidlit Man said:

airsicklowlanders

If someone shaves with a shardrazor is that shave their last shave?

Brandon Sanderson

No, not unless you cut down beneath the skin--so nicks maybe would be a problem...

I think this answer leaves it still ambiguous as to what I'm asking. It could either mean death or loss of sense in the cut area.

[alder24]

23 minutes ago, Craiko said:

I think this answer leaves it still ambiguous as to what I'm asking. It could either mean death or loss of sense in the cut area.

That kind of shaving won't kill a person, it would make the cut area dead and kill cells responsible for the hair growth. Loss of sense in this area would also happen most likely as receptors in your skin would be killed too. Thus it would be the last shave you will ever need and if you cut shallow enough it would damage only skin cells, not muscles beneath, thus your face would function normally but you won't feel any touch in that area. That is what I think about this scenario. 

[Voidlit Man he/him]

10 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That kind of shaving won't kill a person, it would make the cut area dead and kill cells responsible for the hair growth. Loss of sense in this area would also happen most likely as receptors in your skin would be killed too. Thus it would be the last shave you will ever need and if you cut shallow enough it would damage only skin cells, not muscles beneath, thus your face would function normally but you won't feel any touch in that area. That is what I think about this scenario. 

I agree, and think a similar thing would happen to the limb. Cells would die, no hair would grow their again, and you would not be able to feel it. If a part with a vein got cut, likely the vein would still function for the rest of the arm, if I am reading this WOB correctly.

Excelsius

What's the biological reaction of a limb cut by a Shardblade, because they don't start to rot after being cut?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah they don't start to rot, so the bloodflow is still happening. The limb is still attached, it's not going to rot off, but the soul is dead. This is a thing that can happen in the cosmere that can't happen here. Because you have Spiritual, [Cognitive], and Physical DNA. Your soul's been severed in that part, and it just flops around. You can't feel it, you can't control it. It's something that, again, couldn't happen here.

Bonn Signing (May 15, 2019)

The cells would spiritually die, and you wouldn't be able to feel from them anymore.

[Craiko she/her]

Alright, I think you all answered my question

 

Thank you everyone !

[NH2316]

22 hours ago, Craiko said:

Additionally, it's very early on established that cutting through the neck kills instantly. What if the neck is only cut halfway through ? Only a quarter through ?

Oh It's MUCH more complicated.  

First, going halfway through the spinal cord you *obviously* get Radiant Brown-Sequard Syndrome (google it).  You lose motor, vibration, proprioception, and your primary surge on the ipsilateral side below the lesion.  On the contralateral side, you lose pain and light touch sensation, and your secondary surge.  

 

However, it would be difficult to achieve hemi-section of the spinal-cord with a shardblade without *also* disrupting the other part of your neck.  Importantly, you would knock out the carotid, vertebral artery, and internal jugular on the affected side.

- Losing the IJ is bad, but with radiant healing maybe it's survivable without lasting damage (obviously you'd need surveillance for developing thromboembolic events proximal and distal, but you could probably survive the bleeding long enough to achieve hemostasis).  

- Losing the common carotid is a much bigger problem. You stroke out essentially the entire ipsilateral hemisphere of your brain.  Maybe some of the brainstem is saved....depending on where you cut the vertebral artery you might have enough collateral flow from the contralateral vertebral to supplement the vertebrobasilar syndrome through it....especially with radiant healing.  But your ipsilateral middle, anterior, and posterior cerebral artery territories are TOAST (maybe you save some PCA territory, sight, by vertebrobasilar contributions....but that's a stretch.)

 

Now, this is where things become tragic.  Since the stroke is above the pyramidal decussation, it *obviously* means you lose motor on the contralateral side.  Now, even though the spinal cord hemisection alone would have preserved contralateral motor function, you now lose motor on that side too.  So, you've now lost all voluntary motor movement.  Also, you lose effective use of your ipsilateral lung, as the phrenic nerve is likely lacerated.

The other effects of the MCA/ACA stroke are varied:

- If the cut was on the right, you get hemineglect of the left side.  This is bad enough for normal people, but for a radiant it's WAY WORSE.  If you or your spren accidentally position yourselves so the spren ends up to the left of you, you stop perceiving their existence.  This immediately murders the spren. No take backs.*  The only silver-lining is if Shallan stands to your left you also aren't aware of her when she's making puns.

- If the cut was on the left, you lose speech function.  For a normal human, Broca's or Wernicke's aphasia could apply, but for a radiant something special happens - you end up getting "Shallan's aphasia", wherein you can no longer MAKE cheap puns.  

 

Lastly, if your were previously suffering from hyperthyroidism the loss of half your thyroid results in partially-treated  thyroid disease.  You still need to see lirin to get the other half taken out, but maybe it temporizes your symptoms until you get an appointment.  "Be thankful for small blessings..." and some-such.

--Anyway, hope this very serious explanation helps!

 

*The mechanism here should again be *obvious*, but if not...... it's because once your spren passes to the neglected left side you no longer believe they exist or in fact ever existed.  Like a baby lacking object permanence, the object literally does not exist in your mind if you can't see it (or, as in your case, you technically can see it but the object unfortunately stood to the left of you so you neglect the seeing). For regular objects that's fine - once they pass back to your right side they exist in your mind again. Unfortunately for your spren..... if they don't exist in your mind (as their heavily-Connected radiant), they stops existing in the cognitive realm.  Again, sadly, no takebacks.

Edited January 19, 2024 by NH2316