How Commands Work

[TheFrugalWizard]

I have a theory about how commands for mindless objects work in Warbreaker. Based on analyzing the various commands used throughout the novel, I have developed a theory that I am fairly confident in. 

The core of a command is the verb. This is universal throughout the commands. There is a central verb that describes what the object is to do. Some examples used in the novel are "Grab," "Hold," and "Climb," among others. There are slight variants from this rule, often taking the form of partial verb phrases like "Fight for."

The second part of a command is the subject. Only three types of subjects are used in Warbreaker; "things," "me," and "something (representing saying a specific object as the subject)." This appears in most commands except for when the subject is the object itself, like "Untie."

The third part of a command doesn't appear in most commands. An awakener can optionally add an adjective to their command phrase, describing how to carry out a command. A great example of this is when Vasher commands a pile of clothes to "Fight for (verb) me (subject) as if you were me (adjective).

If I missed something or am misunderstanding something, please let me know.

[alder24]

32 minutes ago, TheFrugalWizard said:

I have a theory about how commands for mindless objects work in Warbreaker. Based on analyzing the various commands used throughout the novel, I have developed a theory that I am fairly confident in. 

The core of a command is the verb. This is universal throughout the commands. There is a central verb that describes what the object is to do. Some examples used in the novel are "Grab," "Hold," and "Climb," among others. There are slight variants from this rule, often taking the form of partial verb phrases like "Fight for."

The second part of a command is the subject. Only three types of subjects are used in Warbreaker; "things," "me," and "something (representing saying a specific object as the subject)." This appears in most commands except for when the subject is the object itself, like "Untie."

The third part of a command doesn't appear in most commands. An awakener can optionally add an adjective to their command phrase, describing how to carry out a command. A great example of this is when Vasher commands a pile of clothes to "Fight for (verb) me (subject) as if you were me (adjective).

If I missed something or am misunderstanding something, please let me know.

I don't think there is any specific set of rules for wording in Commands, you have to keep it simple and in your native language. The most important thing is visualization and your intent - Command is the focus for both of those. There are verbs and subjects in Command because they are words, thus they form sentences which have a meaning. 

Spoiler

Chaos

In Dawnshard we learned that Intent and Command are two different things, whereas in Warbreaker Vasher is clearly conflating these two into just saying it's the Command. What's the difference between Intent and Command?

Brandon Sanderson

Intent encompasses more understanding. Command is specifically narrow. A lot of times, these things are gonna be conflated, because they basically can be. Like, if Vasher creates an awakened thing and says "go get me those keys." The Intent is: "I need the keys to get outta here. I want to be free." The Command is: "Go fetch keys." Those are two different things, but they are working toward the same goal. It is important in cosmere terms that the Intent is understood, even if sometimes the words that can speak 'em are clunky and smaller in scale by nature than the Intent.

Let's say the Intent of a Shard encompasses more than the word that the Shard is described by. It's a similar thing that the Intent of a Command is often vaster than the actual words spoken. And the magic can grasp the Intent, not just the Command, depending on the magic system and how good you are at it, and things like that. The words are there to focus Intent. How about that?

[...]

Shardcast Interview (Jan. 23, 2021)

[TheFrugalWizard]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't think there is any specific set of rules for wording in Commands, you have to keep it simple and in your native language. The most important thing is visualization and your intent - Command is the focus for both of those. There are verbs and subjects in Command because they are words, thus they form sentences which have a meaning. 

 

I absolutely agree with you. My purpose, however, is not to explain why commands work or how to use them, but the specific mechanics of the commands themselves. Warbreaker not only explicitly stated but also illustrates that commands have to use specific wording, in addition to the intent behind them, in order to properly awaken something. I am not trying to restate what we already know about Intent and its importance in the Cosmere, but trying to explain the mechanics of the commands themselves.

Elantris Spoilers

Spoiler

To give another example, on Sel, Elantrians use magic by drawing glyphs in the air, which both release power and shape that power. They must understand what they want the Aon to do (Intent), but the precise pattern of the glyphs themselves must also be correct for the Aon function properly. I'm not trying to say that you have to have Intent to make your magic work, but explaining how the magic can be shaped. Does that clarify?

 

Edited January 14 by TheFrugalWizard

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, TheFrugalWizard said:

Elantris Spoilers

Spoiler

To give another example, on Sel, Elantrians use magic by drawing glyphs in the air, which both release power and shape that power. They must understand what they want the Aon to do (Intent), but the precise pattern of the glyphs themselves must also be correct for the Aon function properly. I'm not trying to say that you have to have Intent to make your magic work, but explaining how the magic can be shaped. Does that clarify?

 

We are in the Warbreaker section, please edit your post and make sure you use spoiler tags for anything not Nalthis related.

The thing to keep in mind is that the Command may be required in many Manifestations of Investiture, but it is not always tied to linguistics. Spoilers (Elantris/Stormlight Archive)

Spoiler

Your Sel example, as well as Emperor's Soul, show that Commands are necessary language based on Sel, and we know they are on Nalthis, however (Rhythm of War Spoilers)

Spoiler

In RoW it appears that Command and Intent are much closer, and not language based - RoW Ch 49:

Spoiler

During the last year, he’d practiced his Lashings. Sigzil had monitored, making him do experiments, as usual. They’d found that a Reverse Lashing required a command—or at least a visualization of what you wanted. 

 

 

So, if you are specializing "Commands as used in Nalthian Awakening" then there does seem to be a pattern, at least for basic Commands. But if you are generalizing for Commands as a component of Investiture throughout the Cosmere, then I think something else is happening. WoB (Sel/Scadrial Spoilers):

Spoiler

Argent

With Intent and Command, I've been thinking about how these things would apply to other worlds. On Nalthis they seem kind of folded together into the same thing, but I can't crack the metals on Scadrial and the Aons in Elantris. Because the Aons seem very Command-y, not very Intent-y, right? What about the metals?

Brandon Sanderson

The Aons, you should be able to eventually figure it out. With the metals, when I wrap this in, it's going to be very slight, and you shouldn't assume that every one of the permutations of the cosmere magics are going to require the same levels of... I need the freedom on each one. So Intent and Command can't be a major feature of every magic, otherwise it's too restrictive.

 

Edited January 14 by Treamayne
SPAG

[TheFrugalWizard]

27 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

So, if you are specializing "Commands as used in Nalthian Awakening" then there does seem to be a pattern, at least for basic Commands. But if you are generalizing for Commands as a component of Investiture throughout the Cosmere, then I think something else is happening. 

Yes. I should have clarified in the title, but as I haven't finished SA or Dawnshard yet, I am clearly ill informed about how widespread the term "command" is. I apologize for the ambiguity. I was merely referring to Nathalian awakening.

[alder24]

11 hours ago, TheFrugalWizard said:

My purpose, however, is not to explain why commands work or how to use them, but the specific mechanics of the commands themselves.

I don't think there are some specific mechanics of the Commands like you propose. They are based on the language you use and that's the core of it. They are meant to focus your visualization and your intent. They are simple sentences because you're using a language, so a verb is needed there. Just like officers ordering soldiers, they use simple commands like open fire, hold your fire, advance or something like that. They are meant to be clear, short and well understood by others, there is no mystery structure behind them, this is just how language works. That's it.  

The Command can't rely on the follow-up Command, that's why a Command "grab what I say" doesn't work but a Command "hold that brunch" does work. That's a mechanism to consider.

However there are more complicated Commands which rely heavily on your intent, and dynamically reacts to your actions like “Upon call, become my fingers and grip that which I must,” or “Become as my legs and give them strength” - they seem to be vague and unclear, requiring some sort of follow-up input to react to, but the intent is simple - "I want you to be an extension of my hands/legs." That's a mechanism to consider, if you want your Awakened object to respond to some stimuli, you need to smartly include that in your Commands, but more importantly in your visualization - like "be my fingers and grab what I must," but only when I need you, not every time, thus "upon call." This Command isn't even the same every time Vasher said it, he said it also in a shortened way "Upon call, become my fingers and grip" so why do both of them work in the same way?

The Command for Lifeless is even more complicated “Awaken to my Breath, serve my needs, live at my Command and my word. Fallen Rope" - the intent is be alive, do what I told you to and follow my Commands, and my Commands only. 

The structure by which you create Commands is the same by which you form sentences in your native language. If there is a single word in some language by which you can express the entire 10 word long Command in English, this single word will form a Command. But you need to be smart and use precise words and visualization - that's the mechanism of Commands.

[TheFrugalWizard]

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The structure by which you create Commands is the same by which you form sentences in your native language. If there is a single word in some language by which you can express the entire 10 word long Command in English, this single word will form a Command. But you need to be smart and use precise words and visualization - that's the mechanism of Commands.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you. The novel made it abundantly clear that Commands only work when given a specific set of instructions. It isn't hard to see that there is a pattern to the commands similar to the one I described. If using Commands were so ambiguous, then there wouldn't be such a big deal about "discovering new Commands." Awakeners could simply make up and Command phrase, as long as it was concise, it would work. This is not what the book leads me to believe. There is a pattern, and for the most part, Commands that don't follow the pattern won't work.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, TheFrugalWizard said:

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you. The novel made it abundantly clear that Commands only work when given a specific set of instructions.

You're thinking too restrictive. If there is a single word in some language that means "acting like fingers and gripping" then you use it as a part of your Command in this language. Simple, that's a set of instructions expressed by a single word.

The Command "Protect me" doesn't give a specific set of instructions, it is really vague and unclear - only your visualization gives it a specific meaning and set of instructions - catch arrows, swords and people that threaten to hit me. 

1 hour ago, TheFrugalWizard said:

If using Commands were so ambiguous, then there wouldn't be such a big deal about "discovering new Commands."

It's precisely because Commands are so ambiguous that it's so hard to discover new Commands. It's not about how sentences are formed in a specific language, all Commands follow different patterns in different languages. It's about how well the words match your intent and visualization, and that's why certain words won't work for the task you have in mind. 

[Treamayne]

4 hours ago, TheFrugalWizard said:

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you. The novel made it abundantly clear that Commands only work when given a specific set of instructions. It isn't hard to see that there is a pattern to the commands similar to the one I described. If using Commands were so ambiguous, then there wouldn't be such a big deal about "discovering new Commands." Awakeners could simply make up and Command phrase, as long as it was concise, it would work. This is not what the book leads me to believe. There is a pattern, and for the most part, Commands that don't follow the pattern won't work.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

You're thinking too restrictive. If there is a single word in some language that means "acting like fingers and gripping" then you use it as a part of your Command in this language. Simple, that's a set of instructions expressed by a single word.

The Command "Protect me" doesn't give a specific set of instructions, it is really vague and unclear - only your visualization gives it a specific meaning and set of instructions - catch arrows, swords and people that threaten to hit me. 

It's precisely because Commands are so ambiguous that it's so hard to discover new Commands. It's not about how sentences are formed in a specific language, all Commands follow different patterns in different languages. It's about how well the words match your intent and visualization, and that's why certain words won't work for the task you have in mind. 

I'm going to weigh in on the middle ground. As @alder24 said: WoB:

Spoiler

 

Quote

 

clyguy

If you were to make a language that was very complex, and one word could describe a complex idea and you were to raise a child with that language, would their Awakening ability be significantly more powerful?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, sure. *laughter*

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

 

Quote

Jack Milson

How many Awakening Commands are there? Is there a finite number, a finite but large number or infinite? Can you Awaken with sign language?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you can Awaken with sign language. I would say that there are an infinite number, would be my guess. It's either finite but very, very large or infinite. But they're gonna fall into groups as things tend to do in the Cosmere, I would say.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

But also as @TheFrugalWizard points out:

Spoiler

Warbreaker Ch 46:

Quote

He nodded. “The Command ‘Protect me,’ though only two words, is extremely complicated. So are others, like Fetch something. You have to give the right impulse to the object. This area is where you really begin to understand how little we know. There are probably thousands of Commands we don’t know. The more words you add, the more complicated the mental component becomes, which is why discovering a new Command can take years of study.”

For the life of me, I cannot find the WoB or Annotation where Brandon points out that Awakening Research was slowed down because even when a new Commnad was discovered in one country, each other country had to research it for themselves, because you could not just tranlate the words directly and have it work. .  . 

I'll keep looking and update when I find it.

And in the middle:

Spoiler

Annoations to Ch 21:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Twenty-One

Vasher Awakens His Clothing, Then Leaps off the Palace

One of the subtle, yet drastic, changes to Awakening that happened in this story came during the middle drafts. Originally, the Command was part of the process of Awakening—but wasn't as important as I eventually made it. I had intended for very difficult things to be accomplished through the use of very long and intricate Commands. However, as I wrote the first draft, I felt this was bulky. What it meant that was if you wanted to use a powerful Awakening in battle, you'd have to stop and spout several paragraphs of instructions. It really cut down on the tension of the battle sequences. (And Awakening was already slower than I preferred, with the need for all of the steps—Breathing, finding color, then Commanding.)

So during revisions, I changed this. Instead of requiring a lengthy Command to create a powerful Awakening, the strength and skill of the Awakener is instead determined by their ability to visualize what they want the Command to do. The Command is a focus, the spoken words an important part of the process, but the real trick is getting the right mental picture.

This way, someone can practice a lot, and still use simple Commands—like "grab things"—yet have them do very powerful things. It also allows me to have Commands be easier to learn and use, yet still require skill to master.

Warbreaker Annotations (Oct. 19, 2010)

Warbreaker Ch 33:

Quote

“Well,” Denth said, “there are a lot of Commands. If you want to bring a rope to life—like that one you tried to use back in the alleyway—a good Command is ‘hold things.’ Speak it with a clear voice, willing your Breath to act. If you do it right, the rope will grab whatever is closest. ‘Protect me’ is another good one, though it can be interpreted in fairly strange ways if you don’t imagine exactly what you want.”

“Imagine?” Vivenna asked.

He nodded. “You have to form the Command in your head, not just speak it. The Breath you give up, it’s part of your life. Your soul, you Idrians would say. When you Awaken something, it becomes part of you. If you’re good— and practiced—the things you Awaken will do what you expect of them. They’re part of you. They understand, just like your hands understand what you want them to do.”

 

So, to me:

• The Command Words matter, and the Intent and Visualization matter - and if either side of that equation is off, the awakening will not work
• Which is why research for new commands in so important, you need to not-only find the words, but match the intent visualization to go with it. 
  • I think grammar is less important than connotation of meaning - like two synonyms that don't quite match exactly.

[TheFrugalWizard]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

So, to me:

• The Command Words matter, and the Intent and Visualization matter - and if either side of that equation is off, the awakening will not work
• Which is why research for new commands in so important, you need to not-only find the words, but match the intent visualization to go with it. 
  • I think grammar is less important than connotation of meaning - like two synonyms that don't quite match exactly.

I agree with this interpretation wholeheartedly. I wasn't trying to say that the Commands are the only thing that matters in awakening. I was pointing out the pattern that seems to appear in English awakening. I'm not trying to start an argument about the nature of Commands; I would lose nine times out of ten. I simply thought that the pattern was interesting, and that it likely carries over into Cosmere languages. However, I do stand by the fact that Commands have specific structure, and although we can't prove this exists in other Cosmere languages, it's very likely that it does.

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, TheFrugalWizard said:

I was pointing out the pattern that seems to appear in English awakening.

The thing is, the pattern you mention in the OP is just normal grammar. The fact that it reads the way it does is merely an artifact of the fact that you read an "English" version - and the Korean version of Warbreaker reads (lit translation): "Me [object-marker] protect [ongoing action conjugation]."

What I am trying to say is that the word order matters only in that "Awakening must use the native language" and word connotation is the larger Command factor (For example: why "protect" and not "defend" - synonyms with a slightly different connotation and one works as a command while the other does not). 

 

Edited January 14 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Duxredux]

TSM spoilers

Spoiler

We also know it's possible to overwrite your native language via Connection and still speak Commands while technically having no idea what you're saying in literal phonetic pronunciation. This aspect gave Nomad no problems that I noticed. There is definitely something special regarding the native language as it relates to the Spiritweb, Commands, and Invested Arts. Might be the connotation that your soul has.

Makes me wonder if it's possible for the connotations of a language to evolve to the point that a Command that was used 500 years ago is no longer valid to a new Awakener, though if there's any formalization of Awakening training then that will create a persisting language structure around Awakening. Just. Side thought.

[Block]

Theoretically, what would happen if you wanted to use a command, but there isn't a word for what you want to do in your native language? I can't think of a specific example but I do know that some words in certain languages do not have translations into others. Would you just be able to say part of the command and let your intent of what you want it to do, do the rest?

[Treamayne]

Welcome to the Forums. Be sure to let us know in your profile, or an Intro Post, what Cosmere works oyu have (or have not) read (whichever list is shorter) so that we can avoid spoilers, as necessary. Also, here are some tools and tips of which you may not yet be aware (since each forumis slightly different):

Spoiler

• At the bottom left of a post you will see a "+" icon, a "Quote" link.
• At the bottom right you will see an heart icon (and possibly different reactions in the future).
• At the top right you will see a hamburger menu (three dots) which shows: Report, Share, and (your posts only) Edit and Hide tools.

Likes/Reactions:

Spoiler

• The Heart Icon (Like) is how you thank people or "like" a post
  • Likes, Mentions and Quotes should all send an alert to the appropriate person - even when added to an old post through the Edit feature.

Report Tool:

Spoiler

• Use  the Report tool to report any post (your own or others) to a forum Mod
  • Use this if you do accidentally double-post (sometimes it's the browser or a slow link that causes a double post) - just leave a message that it was an accidental double post and the Mods can fix it. If it was the first post of a new thread that doubled, they usually can merge the threads if they both have answers, so all of the content is retained.
  • For reporting Spam, only report a single post by the user to let the Mods and Admins know - they get messages for each "report" so reporting each Spam post is annoying and unnecessary. If all posts by a "new user" (bot) are all spam - then all of those posts will be deleted when that account is deleted.

Hide Tool:

Spoiler

• Use the Hide tool to hide your post if you want to remove it after posting (useful for accidental double-posts)
  • Hiding the first post in a Thread will hide the threan as long as ther have been no replies (Needs Testing)

Mentions:

Spoiler

• You can "Mention" a person by typing "@" and slowly typing their user name (spelling matters). As you spell their name, the interface will show a pop-up with matches - when you match appears, click it to add the Mention
  • Likes, Mentions and Quotes should all send an alert to the appropriate person - even when added to an old post through the Edit feature.

Quote Methods:

Spoiler

• The "Quote" link is exactly that, when you click it the quote will be added to the reply at the bottom of the thread wherever the cursor is (adding a carraige return if necessary)
  • So, if you have already started to reply before you decide to quote you can then add the quote before or after your text depending on the cursor location when you click "Quote"
• The + icon is multi-quote. As you read a thread, if you want to quote multiple items you can click that for each post you want to quote
  • As you click +, you should see a toaster pop-up on the bottom right of the browser window showing how many quotes you will have
  • They are added in the order you click the + icon, not in the original post order, so you can set the order of quotes for your reply
  • When you are ready to reply, click on the toaster pop-up and it will take you directly to the reply section and add the quotes automatically with one blank line between each for you to add your comment(s)
• Finally, you can also highlight a small section of a post and, when hovering over the highlit portion, click the "Quote Selection" button that pops up.
  • This will also be added to the cursor location, rather than the bottom of the reply.
• Also note that you can move quotes after they have been added to your reply.
  • For example, you add a quote and realize there are no empty lines below it for you to type - so you can hit "enter" before the quote to make an empty line then when you hover over a quote you will see a 4-way arrow at the top-left that you can use to drag the quote up (or down)  and move the quote to before the empty line. . .
  • This is also how you can add quotes to an Edit of your own post. You quote using any of the methods above and the quote will go to the reply section. You then hover over the four-way arrow and use CTRL+C to cut the quote, which you can then paste into your edit window.
• Likes, Mentions and Quotes should all send an alert to the appropriate person - even when added to an old post through the Edit feature.

Editing posts:

Spoiler

• Use the Edit link to make changes to a completed post or add information to your post if it is the most recent (to avoid double posting)
  • Quote buttons will still send a quote to "Reply" if you have a post open for edit, but it is easy to cut/paste the quote to the Edit box
  • Editing the first post in a thread allows the thread-creator to edit the thread title (important for changing accidental spoilers)
  • Editing allows you to add a reason for the edit (Spelling and grammar (SPAG), formatting, clarification, new information, etc.), but it is not required.
• Likes, Mentions and Quotes should all send an alert to the appropriate person - even when added to an old post through the Edit feature.

Other:

Spoiler

• Quotes and Spoilers are very similar, but here are the differences:
  • Spoiler tags are default "closed" and are not attributed - they may be opened by clicking the spoiler box title
  • Quotes are default "open" (but may be closed by clicking the Quote Title and are denoted by the basic arrow icon on the left side of the quote title), If the quote was added with one of the methods explained above, it will be attributed - if it was added with the quote icon in the Reply/Edit tools, it will not be attributed.
  • Attributed Quotes will have a curved arrow icon on the right side of the quote title to jump directly to the post from which the quote was taken.

Hope that helps.

12 minutes ago, Block said:

Theoretically, what would happen if you wanted to use a command, but there isn't a word for what you want to do in your native language? I can't think of a specific example but I do know that some words in certain languages do not have translations into others. Would you just be able to say part of the command and let your intent of what you want it to do, do the rest?

From the translation aspect, normally a word like that translates into a phrase or clause (in Korean, for example, the "ju" pronoun is for <something> that is distant from both the speaker and listener - so "ju cha" would the "that car that is over there away from both of us").

I think a mono-linguistic person would not be able to describe or visualize something they did not have vocabulary for, or would have to craft similar phrases to describe that Command (for example, anachronistic comedy that has the "historic person" describing use of a car as "riding and manuevering the metal box" because they don't know the words "drive" or "car" ). I also think that if there was a word for that action, then the Command would probably fail unless the Command were known.

If a polylinguist were trying to take something from a learned language and restructure into their native language, then they would have to find the closest word or phrase with a similar connotation to make it work.