Divine hierarchy in the cosmere

[bmcclure7]

3 hours ago, RoyalBeeMage said:

I feel that he is on a level above slivers and splinters as he is able to directly pull investiture from the spiritual realm which we have not seen a non shard do yet. Not including the dawn shards or aethers as they predate the shattering 

When did he do that?

[RoyalBeeMage]

every highstorm if im not mistaken and his bond allows dalinar to do the same.

[alder24]

12 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 I don't remember it ever saying he mini ascends? 

 I don't even remember that being a thing that you could do what even is a mini acention? 

I call it that way because of the effects it has - Marsh is getting Invested by Harmony to the point when he transcends the realms and can meet dead people in CR. This is a lot of investiture. Being invested doesn't make you transferred into CR with potential to meet souls everywhere on Scadrial at once - thus I call it mini-Ascension. It might not be accurate, we don’t know the details of it but it seems this is happening more or less. I wanted to simply say that at that point Marsh is more than just an "invested mortal," he's closer to Vin and Rashek when they Ascended at the Well.

Quote

Death smiled. “I didn’t meet his soul, Marasi. I only do that some of the time, when Saze Invests me with the power. I think he likes the idea of me living up to the stories people decided to tell about me. It’s … his way."

 

12 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

As for GB  If we can have theory about Dark Matter  Which we can't measure. Surely the same for GB 

You're making a fundamental mistake. We actually can measure it - we see its effect all around the universe. We see and measure that galaxies are heavier than they should be, we see that they spin faster than they should be and many other things - we see and measure the effects of the Dark Matter all around us, we know there is 5x more of it than regular matter. We know it interacts only gravitationally with matter, not by other means. We can't directly detect it, but we know it's out there, we see its effects, we can measure it. We have observational evidence of its existence.

The God Beyond is not measurable, there are no effects of him anywhere, nothing that can be observed, it's just a religious figure people think is out there, but we will never know if that's true. We don't even know and won't ever know if the Beyond is a real place. You said it yourself "belief is not a good basis for the theory of divinity," so why do you include a being who is only found in beliefs? If you do that for him, you need to do that for every religion - you need to involve every god on Scadrial, who is "theoretically possible to be real," and Trell is the proof of this. What about Iriali's One? What about gods of Shins - the spirits of stone, stars and the sun, who is the god of gods? What about Austre? What about the Pahn Kahl religion with their 5 gods?

I agree, belief is not a good basis for the divine hierarchy. That's why you can't include the God Beyond in your tier list because he exists only in people's hearts. There is no investiture, no continuity, we have only speculation and that's not good enough.

[bmcclure7]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

I call it that way because of the effects it has - Marsh is getting Invested by Harmony to the point when he transcends the realms and can meet dead people in CR. This is a lot of investiture. Being invested doesn't make you transferred into CR with potential to meet souls everywhere on Scadrial at once - thus I call it mini-Ascension. It might not be accurate, we don’t know the details of it but it seems this is happening more or less. I wanted to simply say that at that point Marsh is more than just an "invested mortal," he's closer to Vin and Rashek when they Ascended at the Well.

 

You're making a fundamental mistake. We actually can measure it - we see its effect all around the universe. We see and measure that galaxies are heavier than they should be, we see that they spin faster than they should be and many other things - we see and measure the effects of the Dark Matter all around us, we know there is 5x more of it than regular matter. We know it interacts only gravitationally with matter, not by other means. We can't directly detect it, but we know it's out there, we see its effects, we can measure it. We have observational evidence of its existence.

The God Beyond is not measurable, there are no effects of him anywhere, nothing that can be observed, it's just a religious figure people think is out there, but we will never know if that's true. We don't even know and won't ever know if the Beyond is a real place. You said it yourself "belief is not a good basis for the theory of divinity," so why do you include a being who is only found in beliefs? If you do that for him, you need to do that for every religion - you need to involve every god on Scadrial, who is "theoretically possible to be real," and Trell is the proof of this. What about Iriali's One? What about gods of Shins - the spirits of stone, stars and the sun, who is the god of gods? What about Austre? What about the Pahn Kahl religion with their 5 gods?

I agree, belief is not a good basis for the divine hierarchy. That's why you can't include the God Beyond in your tier list because he exists only in people's hearts. There is no investiture, no continuity, we have only speculation and that's not good enough.

1.  I'm still confusing  On the mechanics of this. I mean Kalidin ascended  He's been to  The cognitive realm?  Renarin  See into the spiritual realm every time he sees the future he ascended?  How about  dalinar? 

 The unmade are said to be in both realms so what does that mean they're also piercing realms?  Are they ascended? 

 

2.  I'm not sure that  storm farther  Can be considered a splinter still. Isn't he merged with the cognitive shadow Of tanabest?  Would that make him a sliver?  Can anyone clear this up for me?

 

3. Actually no we do not have observable evidence that dark matter exists because dark matter cannot be observed.

 We have phenomena  That is so far best explained by dark matter But that's far from the only possible explanation. 

 

4.   A hierarchy of divinity isn't about proving or disproven  Believe in any  Here to unseen deity.   It's about the ranking of said the deities.

 It may indeed be that all of  Gods of scadrel are real.  I mean look at trel. 

 They're not on this list because I doubt they're existence but because I don't know enough about them should they exist to put them in the hierarchy.

The God beyond is on the list because should he be confirmed to exist tomorrow I would know exactly where to put him in the hierarchy without any extra information. 

 

 

 

[alder24]

14 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

I mean Kalidin ascended  He's been to  The cognitive realm? 

No? When? He's never Ascended. He just used the Oathgate to travel physically to CR. I don't think Marsh was doing that because he was meant to meet souls of people and those appear for a short while and disappear - Marsh would need to act like Leras in SH, appearing next to every soul, or at least traveling from one to another very quickly, something that can't be done with a physical body, thus he needs to be so invested that he transcends realms, like Vin in the Well. He needs to act like Leras. 

14 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Renarin  See into the spiritual realm every time he sees the future he ascended?

That's not Ascention. Don't focus too much on my use of the word "mini-Ascension." The point is Marsh is likely getting significantly invested to levels above those possible to mortals.

14 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

How about  dalinar? 

He did, when he became Unity at the end of OB. That's the only time he did that.

Just looking, beeing or peering into CR/SR isn't Ascension. 

14 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

The unmade are said to be in both realms so what does that mean they're also piercing realms?  Are they ascended? 

Ascension means getting ahold of a significant fraction of Shardic power. They don't pierce realms, they exist in both PR and CR at the same time and they are so invested that their presence warps and has an impact on those realms. Like Re-Shephir changing Urithiru. RoW I-2:

Quote

She flowed through the Kholinar palace, existing between the Physical and Cognitive Realms. Like many of the Unmade, she belonged to neither one fully. Odium trapped them in a halfway existence. Some would manifest in various forms if they resided too long in one place, or if they were pulled through by strong emotions.

 

14 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

2.  I'm not sure that  storm farther  Can be considered a splinter still. Isn't he merged with the cognitive shadow Of tanabest?

Yes. That's my point, he's above that classification. He is still a Splinter but also a CS who is bound to the biggest piece of Honor.

Spoiler

Questioner

Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time...

Brandon Sanderson

Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s Cognitive Shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

14 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Would that make him a sliver?

No. A Sliver is someone who once held the power, but since then he released it and it left permanent changes to his soul.

Spoiler

Alex M

What's the difference between avatar and Splinter?

Brandon Sanderson

These are all very weird terms that I'm just using.

*mistakenly answering for Sliver* A Sliver is a person who has held the power of a Shard, and then let go of it. A briefly held time, holding the infinite power of a Shard, but no longer does. So what does that do? That changes your soul, and leaves markers on it. It's a real physiological thing.

An avatar is... a Shard manifesting a semi-autonomous piece of themselves that is still connected to who they are. An avatar, for instance, of Autonomy - depending on how Autonomy creates that avatar - might know, might not know, but they are still an aspect, they are still part of Autonomy. And when you get down to it a part of them knows that, and it's almost a god roleplaying, but in a way that only a Shard, or a lowercase-g god in the Cosmere, can do.

Brandon Sanderson

*realizes that he answered for Sliver earlier, and clarifies*

A Splinter is a piece of a Shard that is fully autonomous, where an avatar is not. So something that is Splintered does not consider itself - and would not be considered by the definitions  - an actual piece of it [the Shard], and has free will. So once it has free will, and/or could develop free will (because some of the Splinters haven't gotten there yet), but is fully cut off from the direct control and self-identity of the Shard, then it is called a Splinter.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

Spoiler

BlackYeti (paraphrased)

In Words of Radiance, the Stormfather refers to himself as a Sliver, how is this the case when he is apparently a Splinter?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Stormfather is a Cognitive Shadow, but he doesn't know the correct terminology. Terms such as Splinter and Sliver don't really apply to him.

Shadows of Self Newcastle UK signing (Oct. 20, 2015)

 

15 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

3. Actually no we do not have observable evidence that dark matter exists because dark matter cannot be observed.

 We have phenomena  That is so far best explained by dark matter But that's far from the only possible explanation. 

Dark Matter is a term for something we can't see directly but interacts gravitationally with matter which we can see. We don't know what it is, but we have observable evidence that it exists. It doesn't even need to be something new, it can be made out of regular matter we failed to account for in our models. It can be anything from primordial black holes to WIMPs. We observe its effects that's why we know it exists whatever it may be. It's like when you hear thunder but you don't see any lightning - you still know there was something that made this sound. The God Beyond isn't like that, there is nothing that was ever observed which hinted at the possibility of his existence. People just believe he is real, but they have no evidence for it.

15 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

4.   A hierarchy of divinity isn't about proving or disproven  Believe in any  Here to unseen deity.   It's about the ranking of said the deities.

 It may indeed be that all of  Gods of scadrel are real.  I mean look at trel. 

 They're not on this list because I doubt they're existence but because I don't know enough about them should they exist to put them in the hierarchy.

The God beyond is on the list because should he be confirmed to exist tomorrow I would know exactly where to put him in the hierarchy without any extra information. 

By this logic you should include every single deity in Cosmere...

It's your topic, you make the final call. I disagree with your decision, I tried to argue but I've failed to convince you. Let's drop it here because the more you try to explain your decision the more it proves your list is about "beliefs" thus it should include every deity that was ever mentioned. 

[Duxredux]

Here's my 2 cents.

Quote

triforceorder

Is the God Beyond related to “the Beyond” place that was talked about?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Calamity Chicago signing (Feb. 22, 2016)

Looking over the Coppermind there isn't any concrete connection between The God Beyond and The Beyond and Brandon has RAFO'd questions like that. There is some debate as to whether or not The God Beyond is actually Adonalsium.

Moving past this, what is the core objective for creating a hierarchical Pantheon of the Cosmere? The OP mentions divine authority, but unless I'm missing something big, it's implied that there was no bestowal of authority from Adonalsium to Shards, they were just the people conniving enough to kill the guy who had the job last, to paraphrase Nazh.

From a power standpoint, sure it's fine to look at Invested beings and make a graded scale. Add in religious beliefs and Brandon has very, very deliberately made this undetermined because otherwise it undermines the characters.

Spoiler

Questioner

After people die, in this universe, where exactly do they go? Because, at first they appear in this one world, and then they go somewhere else.

Brandon Sanderson

So where do people go when they die. *laughter* In the cosmere. One of the things that's very important to me as a writer, when I am writing stories, is when we get to these kind of fundamental questions about faith and religion and things like this, that the narrative is allowing multiple characters' viewpoints to be plausibly true, if this makes sense. For instance, I am not gonna come out and say, "Is there a capital-G God of the cosmere, is there an afterlife?" These are not questions I'm gonna answer, because in-world, they can't answer them. What they can say is, your Investiture will leave what we call a Cognitive Shadow, which is an imprint of your personality that can do certain things. And that most of those fade away, and you can see them, glimpse them, and then watch them go. But, are they going somewhere? Or are they not? Is that simply the Investiture being reclaimed, Is it more of a Buddhist thought, where your soul is getting recycled and used again? Is it nothing, you return to, you know, being-- yeah, is it a different type of matter? Or is there a Beyond, is there a capital-G God? Things like this. These questions are not answered. I'm never gonna answer those.

Now, the characters will try to answer them. But it's important to me that both Dalinar and Jasnah can exist in the same universe, and that the story is not saying "This one is right, and this one is wrong." The story is saying "This is how this one sees the world; this is how this one sees the world." It's very important to me from the beginning to do that, just because-- Like, I hate reading a book where someone espouses my viewpoint only to get proven wrong by the entire structure of the narrative, and in that universe, that person is wrong. But I'm like, "In our universe, I don't think that I am. Just the way you constructed everything makes it so that I have to be wrong, if I were living in your universe, even if it's a universe that's not a sci-fi/fantasy one." If that makes sense.

This is just kind of for respecting my characters and for the people who hold the viewpoints of my characters, in particular if they happen to be different from my own viewpoints. I feel there are certain lines I'm not gonna cross.

So, the answer is: who do you believe? Which of the philosophies in the books do you look at and say "Yeah!" Or, even better: listen to lots of different ones, and maybe these different viewpoints are all gonna have interesting points that'll give you things to think upon.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

Brandon won't make a definitive answer as to if there really is a Beyond or not, that's just the term for "where people disappear to when they die and not even Shards know what that means". So what is being done in this thread could be discussed within the Cosmere with in-world hierarchy of authority, but there's a division between in-world and IRL because Brandon has intentionally made it indeterminate. Discussing Cosmere beliefs will just reveal your opinions on IRL religion and the religious and it may be best to reserve that for a thread designed for that discussion.

 

I've heard and seen many different ways of considering what deity is and what that term means to someone, or what worship or belief entails. The method that one approaches or considers deity if they believe in one is not universal. I think there was a religious discussion in the general discussion board I read a while back that was really respectful and cool to read with representation from Jews, Christians, Atheists, the Egyptian pantheon and more if anyone reading this is interested.

The general discussion board has quite a few AMA and religious discussion groups if people are interesting in finding people with similar beliefs or exploring how other people consider religion.

[bmcclure7]

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

No? When? He's never Ascended. He just used the Oathgate to travel physically to CR. I don't think Marsh was doing that because he was meant to meet souls of people and those appear for a short while and disappear - Marsh would need to act like Leras in SH, appearing next to every soul, or at least traveling from one to another very quickly, something that can't be done with a physical body, thus he needs to be so invested that he transcends realms, like Vin in the Well. He needs to act like Leras. 

That's not Ascention. Don't focus too much on my use of the word "mini-Ascension." The point is Marsh is likely getting significantly invested to levels above those possible to mortals.

He did, when he became Unity at the end of OB. That's the only time he did that.

Just looking, beeing or peering into CR/SR isn't Ascension. 

Ascension means getting ahold of a significant fraction of Shardic power. They don't pierce realms, they exist in both PR and CR at the same time and they are so invested that their presence warps and has an impact on those realms. Like Re-Shephir changing Urithiru. RoW I-2:

 

Yes. That's my point, he's above that classification. He is still a Splinter but also a CS who is bound to the biggest piece of Honor.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time...

Brandon Sanderson

Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s Cognitive Shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

No. A Sliver is someone who once held the power, but since then he released it and it left permanent changes to his soul.

  Reveal hidden contents

Alex M

What's the difference between avatar and Splinter?

Brandon Sanderson

These are all very weird terms that I'm just using.

*mistakenly answering for Sliver* A Sliver is a person who has held the power of a Shard, and then let go of it. A briefly held time, holding the infinite power of a Shard, but no longer does. So what does that do? That changes your soul, and leaves markers on it. It's a real physiological thing.

An avatar is... a Shard manifesting a semi-autonomous piece of themselves that is still connected to who they are. An avatar, for instance, of Autonomy - depending on how Autonomy creates that avatar - might know, might not know, but they are still an aspect, they are still part of Autonomy. And when you get down to it a part of them knows that, and it's almost a god roleplaying, but in a way that only a Shard, or a lowercase-g god in the Cosmere, can do.

Brandon Sanderson

*realizes that he answered for Sliver earlier, and clarifies*

A Splinter is a piece of a Shard that is fully autonomous, where an avatar is not. So something that is Splintered does not consider itself - and would not be considered by the definitions  - an actual piece of it [the Shard], and has free will. So once it has free will, and/or could develop free will (because some of the Splinters haven't gotten there yet), but is fully cut off from the direct control and self-identity of the Shard, then it is called a Splinter.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

BlackYeti (paraphrased)

In Words of Radiance, the Stormfather refers to himself as a Sliver, how is this the case when he is apparently a Splinter?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Stormfather is a Cognitive Shadow, but he doesn't know the correct terminology. Terms such as Splinter and Sliver don't really apply to him.

Shadows of Self Newcastle UK signing (Oct. 20, 2015)

 

Dark Matter is a term for something we can't see directly but interacts gravitationally with matter which we can see. We don't know what it is, but we have observable evidence that it exists. It doesn't even need to be something new, it can be made out of regular matter we failed to account for in our models. It can be anything from primordial black holes to WIMPs. We observe its effects that's why we know it exists whatever it may be. It's like when you hear thunder but you don't see any lightning - you still know there was something that made this sound. The God Beyond isn't like that, there is nothing that was ever observed which hinted at the possibility of his existence. People just believe he is real, but they have no evidence for it.

By this logic you should include every single deity in Cosmere...

It's your topic, you make the final call. I disagree with your decision, I tried to argue but I've failed to convince you. Let's drop it here because the more you try to explain your decision the more it proves your list is about "beliefs" thus it should include every deity that was ever mentioned. 

 

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

No? When? He's never Ascended. He just used the Oathgate to travel physically to CR. I don't think Marsh was doing that because he was meant to meet souls of people and those appear for a short while and disappear - Marsh would need to act like Leras in SH, appearing next to every soul, or at least traveling from one to another very quickly, something that can't be done with a physical body, thus he needs to be so invested that he transcends realms, like Vin in the Well. He needs to act like Leras. 

That's not Ascention. Don't focus too much on my use of the word "mini-Ascension." The point is Marsh is likely getting significantly invested to levels above those possible to mortals.

He did, when he became Unity at the end of OB. That's the only time he did that.

Just looking, beeing or peering into CR/SR isn't Ascension. 

Ascension means getting ahold of a significant fraction of Shardic power. They don't pierce realms, they exist in both PR and CR at the same time and they are so invested that their presence warps and has an impact on those realms. Like Re-Shephir changing Urithiru. RoW I-2:

 

Yes. That's my point, he's above that classification. He is still a Splinter but also a CS who is bound to the biggest piece of Honor.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time...

Brandon Sanderson

Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s Cognitive Shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

No. A Sliver is someone who once held the power, but since then he released it and it left permanent changes to his soul.

  Reveal hidden contents

Alex M

What's the difference between avatar and Splinter?

Brandon Sanderson

These are all very weird terms that I'm just using.

*mistakenly answering for Sliver* A Sliver is a person who has held the power of a Shard, and then let go of it. A briefly held time, holding the infinite power of a Shard, but no longer does. So what does that do? That changes your soul, and leaves markers on it. It's a real physiological thing.

An avatar is... a Shard manifesting a semi-autonomous piece of themselves that is still connected to who they are. An avatar, for instance, of Autonomy - depending on how Autonomy creates that avatar - might know, might not know, but they are still an aspect, they are still part of Autonomy. And when you get down to it a part of them knows that, and it's almost a god roleplaying, but in a way that only a Shard, or a lowercase-g god in the Cosmere, can do.

Brandon Sanderson

*realizes that he answered for Sliver earlier, and clarifies*

A Splinter is a piece of a Shard that is fully autonomous, where an avatar is not. So something that is Splintered does not consider itself - and would not be considered by the definitions  - an actual piece of it [the Shard], and has free will. So once it has free will, and/or could develop free will (because some of the Splinters haven't gotten there yet), but is fully cut off from the direct control and self-identity of the Shard, then it is called a Splinter.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

  Hide contents

BlackYeti (paraphrased)

In Words of Radiance, the Stormfather refers to himself as a Sliver, how is this the case when he is apparently a Splinter?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Stormfather is a Cognitive Shadow, but he doesn't know the correct terminology. Terms such as Splinter and Sliver don't really apply to him.

Shadows of Self Newcastle UK signing (Oct. 20, 2015)

 

Dark Matter is a term for something we can't see directly but interacts gravitationally with matter which we can see. We don't know what it is, but we have observable evidence that it exists. It doesn't even need to be something new, it can be made out of regular matter we failed to account for in our models. It can be anything from primordial black holes to WIMPs. We observe its effects that's why we know it exists whatever it may be. It's like when you hear thunder but you don't see any lightning - you still know there was something that made this sound. The God Beyond isn't like that, there is nothing that was ever observed which hinted at the possibility of his existence. People just believe he is real, but they have no evidence for it.

By this logic you should include every single deity in Cosmere...

It's your topic, you make the final call. I disagree with your decision, I tried to argue but I've failed to convince you. Let's drop it here because the more you try to explain your decision the more it proves your list is about "beliefs" thus it should include every deity that was ever mentioned. 

1.  It's not so much about what particular gods are on the list but what kind of gods and where.

2. Tanavast   Was The Shard honor?   wouldn't that make his cognitive A sliver?  Assuming that the process to make a cognitive shadow copies the soul exactly.

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1.  It's not so much about what particular gods are on the list but what kind of gods and where.

That's why I'm asking where would you place Marsh who gets periodically invested by Harmony.

3 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

2. Tanavast   Was The Shard honor?   wouldn't that make his cognitive A sliver?  Assuming that the process to make a cognitive shadow copies the soul exactly.

No, because remnants of Honor are still attached to that Cognitive Shadow. It's a CS of Honor itself. Stormfather holds the pieces of Honor.

 

Another thing to consider, if you're talking about divinity as continuity and the relationship to Adonalsium, then wouldn't that place Aethers on the same level as Adonalsium? What I mean by this is that they are not related to Adonalsium, they were not created by him, some claim they even predate Adonalsium. Their investiture didn't come from him, was not affected by the Shattering (as far as we know) and they predate the Shattering and rules of it doesn't apply to them. They consider themselves equal to Adonalsium. If their investiture didn't come from Adonalsium, thus they have no relation to Adonalsium, no continuity here. This means that either they don't belong on this list (because it's about the relationship with Adonalsium, and they have none of it), or they are equal to Adonalsium . Like two separate kingdoms, Adonalsium is the Holy Roman Empire while Aethers are like the Ming China - two completely separate countries, unrelated to each other, each with their own "line of continuity," both ruled by the emperor, both have their own, unrelated power.

[Argenti]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No, because remnants of Honor are still attached to that Cognitive Shadow. It's a CS of Honor itself. Stormfather holds the pieces of Honor.

 

Tanavast and the Rider of Storms merged to make what we know as the Stormfather today. The Stormfather also holds the largest chunk of Honor's power, and acts as it's representative . He is a spren, so he is a splinter, he is a cognitive shadow, who happens to be a sliver. He was made by Ado, and thus predates the shard that he now represents.
I think it would be inaccurate to call him any one of these terms on their own, since The Storm Father is more than the sum of his parts.

[bmcclure7]

12 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That's why I'm asking where would you place Marsh who gets periodically invested by Harmony.

No, because remnants of Honor are still attached to that Cognitive Shadow. It's a CS of Honor itself. Stormfather holds the pieces of Honor.

 

Another thing to consider, if you're talking about divinity as continuity and the relationship to Adonalsium, then wouldn't that place Aethers on the same level as Adonalsium? What I mean by this is that they are not related to Adonalsium, they were not created by him, some claim they even predate Adonalsium. Their investiture didn't come from him, was not affected by the Shattering (as far as we know) and they predate the Shattering and rules of it doesn't apply to them. They consider themselves equal to Adonalsium. If their investiture didn't come from Adonalsium, thus they have no relation to Adonalsium, no continuity here. This means that either they don't belong on this list (because it's about the relationship with Adonalsium, and they have none of it), or they are equal to Adonalsium . Like two separate kingdoms, Adonalsium is the Holy Roman Empire while Aethers are like the Ming China - two completely separate countries, unrelated to each other, each with their own "line of continuity," both ruled by the emperor, both have their own, unrelated power.

 Well this one is gonna be disputed because Brandon has said in world there is A dispute and he hasn't given us which answer is correct.

 

If were assuming that they were created by Adonalsium  Then we're looking them on the same level as  shards .

 

 

 If not then they could be at the same level as adonalsium maybe even higher.

 Since Brandon hasn't given us which answer is correct I can't say for certain.

 

 

 

I'm still not sure I understand what you're saying about marsh but it sounds like he's becoming a sliver if he's ascending even if partially. I still don't understand why you think he's ascending.  But it would make sense from a Character perspective. I just don't seem to understand What piercing the realms has to do with it.

 

 Concerning the storm father I'm a little confused. Is not the storm father fused with the cognitive shadow of the former holder of honor?