Why did El conduct a weapons test in a great hurry? [Discuss]

[+Oltux72 he/him]

Taravangian got El a test subject by extraordinary means. It is obvious that Odium wants to test anti-Investiture weapons. Killing Radiant spren is a huge boon to his side. It is not clear why he is in a hurry that makes every day count, unless of course that test has a connection to the upcoming contest of champions.

Yet if he wants to get Dalinar as his slave, annihilating his soul would be counterproductive. If he wants to kill a Herald, there is no point. He already could do that, as Jezrien's fate has shown.

If he wants to kill Radiants, why the hurry? He is not going to mass produce Raysium to hand it out to his troops, is he? And why test with anti-Voidlight? So

1. Odium does not know or believe that Dalinar will fight for himself.
2. This is for a bomb and the knife is just coincidence
3. Odium wants to kill or threaten to kill the Stormfather

What do you make out of this test?

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Taravangian got El a test subject by extraordinary means. It is obvious that Odium wants to test anti-Investiture weapons. Killing Radiant spren is a huge boon to his side. It is not clear why he is in a hurry that makes every day count, unless of course that test has a connection to the upcoming contest of champions.

Yet if he wants to get Dalinar as his slave, annihilating his soul would be counterproductive. If he wants to kill a Herald, there is no point. He already could do that, as Jezrien's fate has shown.

If he wants to kill Radiants, why the hurry? He is not going to mass produce Raysium to hand it out to his troops, is he? And why test with anti-Voidlight? So

1. Odium does not know or believe that Dalinar will fight for himself.
2. This is for a bomb and the knife is just coincidence
3. Odium wants to kill or threaten to kill the Stormfather

What do you make out of this test?

If they wanted to make a bomb they would just mix it with Voidlight, not kill the Pursuer. The last option is the most likely, but there can be another - kill as many True Spren as possible. Odium already has forces stationed in CR, they control several towns and cities - they can strike with no warning and kill spren en masse. It doesn't really serve any purpose in the contest but it might weaken the Coalition and threaten some spren to join Odium in his upcoming war for Cosmere. They also might want to strike and conquer some strategic positions, like Azimir, to basically sever Coalition's communications and make them dependent on Odium in the future or something like this. But I agree, it's weird, I don't know what to think of this test and I doubt it's just to test if Anti-Light really exists and if they succeeded in making it in absence of Raboniel. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

15 minutes ago, alder24 said:

If they wanted to make a bomb they would just mix it with Voidlight, not kill the Pursuer.

You have a point. However, it seems to me that Taravangian is thorough. That is, as the Radiants have reconquered Urithiru he cannot be certain that he is following the procedure correctly. Thus he would test the product as thoroughly as possible before he dares use it in the contest. And that means using it to kill a Fused.

15 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The last option is the most likely, but there can be another - kill as many True Spren as possible. Odium already has forces stationed in CR, they control several towns and cities - they can strike with no warning and kill spren en masse.

• Doesn't that require mass production of Raysium?
• Wouldn't he force the reluctant spren into bonding Radiants thereby?

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

You have a point. However, it seems to me that Taravangian is thorough. That is, as the Radiants have reconquered Urithiru he cannot be certain that he is following the procedure correctly. Thus he would test the product as thoroughly as possible before he dares use it in the contest. And that means using it to kill a Fused.

Not really. if this was about a bomb, the same result would be achieved if he mixed anti-light with Voidlight. He wanted to specifically test if Pursuer's soul will return or not. If Anti-Light kills permanently. 

3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

• Doesn't that require mass production of Raysium?

Not really. Fused can fly - they can use limited amount of daggers and kill a lot of spren this way.

3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

• Wouldn't he force the reluctant spren into bonding Radiants thereby?

It can end up both ways, it depends on how Odium will act. Spren are very fearful of death and another Recreance. If he targets fractions that are fully on the Radiant side, other True Spren might conclude that it will be safer to side with Odium than with humans. They are already talking about it. 

[Duxredux he/him]

I disagree, this could be verification for both long-term and short-term planning. This is Taravangian we're talking about and he loves gathering information enough to bleed people out to record Death Rattles and stabbing Lezian isn't much more than that. He makes his plans not just based on his own agenda and capabilities but also by predicting what his opponents will do. It might be as simple as confirming that anti-Investiture really works and that both sides have the means to produce it to better inform his predictions as to what Dalinar and the Coalition will be planning. Up to this point most of Taravangian's plans have been multi-pronged with a lot of detail on political and positional strength, he's not really the "doomsday weapon" kind of strategist, so it will probably be a factor in his plans, but I have done a very poor job of predicting Taravangian up to this point..

It also might be as simple as resource management as Stormlight is extremely easy to acquire but diminishes relatively quickly but Odium seems to have been selective on where he Invests Voidlight. There's a resource disparity where Voidlight persists much longer than Stormlight, which means that every time the Coalition captures Voidlight spheres they can accumulate more and more anti-Voidlight to permanently kill Fused. If Odium's forces can keep Voidlight out of the hands of the Coalition, they will have a significant advantage as even if the Coalition has the knowledge to create anti-Light, they still need the resources to do so. Actually, because the very Light that enables each side's abilities also it what allows them to be permanently killed makes planning warfare very different in general. It's the equivalent of using guns that can only permanently kill your own side but can put your enemy temporarily out of action. It adds an unusual degree of risk. 

The shelf-life of Light and anti-Light becomes even more important in Shadesmar. Adolin and Shallan's trip to Lasting Integrity showed how travel time becomes much more important. There may be places in Shadesmar that would be very difficult to invade with anti-Stormlight.

Yeah... Anti-Light and resource management potentially changes a lot of how war can be conducted between the Fused and Radiants. Same with power utilization in general with Fused powers much more efficient in many cases not requiring carried spheres while Radiants get Plate and Blade depending on their Oath separate from their Surges. It also means that whenever either side is carrying Anti-Light, then by nature they are carrying half of a bomb while the opponents have access to plenty of regular Light to set it off. It's... going to get complicated.

Edited January 2 by Duxredux
Added thoughts.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Not really. if this was about a bomb, the same result would be achieved if he mixed anti-light with Voidlight. He wanted to specifically test if Pursuer's soul will return or not. If Anti-Light kills permanently.

He already knows that from Rabionel's daughter and Raboniel herself. Though granted, he may consider Raboniel to have been captured rather than killed. In terms of basic research the question should be clear. If he is still testing this then it looks to me like he wants confirmation that the stuff his people are making is genuine anti-Light.

3 hours ago, Duxredux said:

It also might be as simple as resource management as Stormlight is extremely easy to acquire but diminishes relatively quickly but Odium seems to have been selective on where he Invests Voidlight. There's a resource disparity where Voidlight persists much longer than Stormlight, which means that every time the Coalition captures Voidlight spheres they can accumulate more and more anti-Voidlight to permanently kill Fused. If Odium's forces can keep Voidlight out of the hands of the Coalition, they will have a significant advantage as even if the Coalition has the knowledge to create anti-Light, they still need the resources to do so. Actually, because the very Light that enables each side's abilities also it what allows them to be permanently killed makes planning warfare very different in general. It's the equivalent of using guns that can only permanently kill your own side but can put your enemy temporarily out of action. It adds an unusual degree of risk. 

The shelf-life of Light and anti-Light becomes even more important in Shadesmar. Adolin and Shallan's trip to Lasting Integrity showed how travel time becomes much more important. There may be places in Shadesmar that would be very difficult to invade with anti-Stormlight.

Hasn't that point turned moot by the discovery of how to use vacuum tubes and the three pure tones? They mean that you can covert lights, don't they?

[alder24]

11 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

He already knows that from Rabionel's daughter and Raboniel herself. Though granted, he may consider Raboniel to have been captured rather than killed. In terms of basic research the question should be clear. If he is still testing this then it looks to me like he wants confirmation that the stuff his people are making is genuine anti-Light.

That's right, but Raboniel turned against Odium in the very last moment, it might have cast a shadow of doubt and distrust on her actions and they wanted to confirm that this really works as she told them. If they only wanted to know if they made anti-light, it would be much faster to just mix it with Voidlight. That's why I think they really wanted to confirm it kills their souls permanently and Raboniel didn't trick them (like maybe by trapping her soul in a gemstone for example). Otherwise why would they kill Pursuer just to test if they have anti-light?

[Duxredux he/him]

15 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

He already knows that from Rabionel's daughter and Raboniel herself. Though granted, he may consider Raboniel to have been captured rather than killed. In terms of basic research the question should be clear. If he is still testing this then it looks to me like he wants confirmation that the stuff his people are making is genuine anti-Light.

It depends on what Taravangian got from the residual memories in the Shard. Remember that Rayse was the one running the show back when the discovery was being made, Taravangian spent most of this time frame far away from Urithiru or in jail if I remember right.

15 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Hasn't that point turned moot by the discovery of how to use vacuum tubes and the three pure tones? They mean that you can covert lights, don't they?

Unless I missed something, they can't convert Stormlight into Voidlight or vice versa. They've figured out how to invert a tone and create Anti-Investiture, but that's entirely separate from converting one Shard's Investiture into another Shard's investiture. I'm pretty sure they tested that and the tones of other Lights and inverted tones did nothing to the test Light.

[bmcclure7]

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Taravangian got El a test subject by extraordinary means. It is obvious that Odium wants to test anti-Investiture weapons. Killing Radiant spren is a huge boon to his side. It is not clear why he is in a hurry that makes every day count, unless of course that test has a connection to the upcoming contest of champions.

Yet if he wants to get Dalinar as his slave, annihilating his soul would be counterproductive. If he wants to kill a Herald, there is no point. He already could do that, as Jezrien's fate has shown.

If he wants to kill Radiants, why the hurry? He is not going to mass produce Raysium to hand it out to his troops, is he? And why test with anti-Voidlight? So

1. Odium does not know or believe that Dalinar will fight for himself.
2. This is for a bomb and the knife is just coincidence
3. Odium wants to kill or threaten to kill the Stormfather

What do you make out of this test?

 May I make another suggestion perhaps it is To threaten fused.

 

 I doubt fused  Will all just accept this new odium.  There's bound to be rebels who won't accept being ruled over by a human  One of their former enemies no less.

 

I suspect you'll have to use anti void light to keep them in check. 

 

 

 

 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

12 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 May I make another suggestion perhaps it is To threaten fused.

I am afraid I fail to see the need. Odium already threatened to take away a Fused's immortality in Oathbringer during the battle of Thaylen Field. Are you saying that that was an empty threat?

[alder24]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid I fail to see the need. Odium already threatened to take away a Fused's immortality in Oathbringer during the battle of Thaylen Field. Are you saying that that was an empty threat?

Odium can't do that if they act on their Passions. Leshwi acted just like that and betrayed Odium and yet Odium couldn't kill her on the spot, or deny investiture to her. I think it makes perfect sense that Odium might want to threaten his Fused to prevent something that Leshwi did from repeating again. Not to mention Pursuer disobeyed Odium too, Raboniel as well, Sja-Anat is almost in the open rebellion. Fused and Unmades aren't as loyal as Odium wants them to be, he needs them to remember where their place is, and this demonstration serves this purpose perfectly well. From all the reasons listed in this topic, the one proposed by bmcclure makes the most sense to me. 

Spoiler

Striker_EZ

Why didn't Odium take the Investiture away from the Fused that rebelled against him at the end of Rhythm of War? At the end of Oathbringer, Odium tells one Fused that questioned him that he could take "that which gave [the Fused] life." So why didn't he do that to Leshwi and the others?

Brandon Sanderson

This is actually an excellent question. Odium, in his previous incarnation-- we'll see how he acts now-- part of the driving force of Odium is this kind of belief, mistaken or otherwise, that Odium represents all emotion, and strength of emotion, and basically the Passions in lore. Rebelling against him in the way that they did is actually in line with Odium's personal directives. The Vessel may not like it, in fact the power may not like it, but at the same time, there's a part of both of them that acknowledges, this is what they set in motion, and this is an appropriate use of the agency of the agents they chose. And so, unilaterally destroying those who turn against him is actually not an Odium thing. It's more an Honor thing than it would be an Odium thing. It's just not in line with how Odium acts or thinks, even though it's possible and there's threats and... That's not saying Odium wouldn't do it. But acting like Honor is not something Odium would necessarily want to do.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

[bmcclure7]

11 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid I fail to see the need. Odium already threatened to take away a Fused's immortality in Oathbringer during the battle of Thaylen Field. Are you saying that that was an empty threat?

 Considering What happened in rhythm of war yes actually i'd say it is. 

 At the very least it's no longer very effective given that several fused already rebelled.  And odium seemed powerless to do anything about it as least as long as they're in the physical realm. 

Edited January 3 by bmcclure7

[+Child of Hodor]

14 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Considering What happened in rhythm of war yes actually i'd say it is. 

 At the very least it's no longer very effective given that several fused already rebelled.  And odium seemed powerless to do anything about it as least as long as they're in the physical realm. 

That's a good point. He also no longer can keep them from going back to Roshar after the Everstorm was brought to Roshar. He told Dalinar he literally cannot stop them which is why he can't agree to it as part of what he has to do if he loses the contest of champions.  

[bmcclure7]

36 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

That's a good point. He also no longer can keep them from going back to Roshar after the Everstorm was brought to Roshar. He told Dalinar he literally cannot stop them which is why he can't agree to it as part of what he has to do if he loses the contest of champions.  

Also remember that most of fused are insane and as we have seen with the pursuer this can cause problems. 

Based on his past actions I don't think Todium will tolerate these fused a it seems likely he will want to purge the more insane fused and perhaps with have already seen the start of this with the pursuer. 

 

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

Odium can't do that if they act on their Passions. Leshwi acted just like that and betrayed Odium and yet Odium couldn't kill her on the spot, or deny investiture to her. I think it makes perfect sense that Odium might want to threaten his Fused to prevent something that Leshwi did from repeating again. Not to mention Pursuer disobeyed Odium too, Raboniel as well, Sja-Anat is almost in the open rebellion. Fused and Unmades aren't as loyal as Odium wants them to be, he needs them to remember where their place is, and this demonstration serves this purpose perfectly well. From all the reasons listed in this topic, the one proposed by bmcclure makes the most sense to me. 

  Hide contents

Striker_EZ

Why didn't Odium take the Investiture away from the Fused that rebelled against him at the end of Rhythm of War? At the end of Oathbringer, Odium tells one Fused that questioned him that he could take "that which gave [the Fused] life." So why didn't he do that to Leshwi and the others?

Brandon Sanderson

This is actually an excellent question. Odium, in his previous incarnation-- we'll see how he acts now-- part of the driving force of Odium is this kind of belief, mistaken or otherwise, that Odium represents all emotion, and strength of emotion, and basically the Passions in lore. Rebelling against him in the way that they did is actually in line with Odium's personal directives. The Vessel may not like it, in fact the power may not like it, but at the same time, there's a part of both of them that acknowledges, this is what they set in motion, and this is an appropriate use of the agency of the agents they chose. And so, unilaterally destroying those who turn against him is actually not an Odium thing. It's more an Honor thing than it would be an Odium thing. It's just not in line with how Odium acts or thinks, even though it's possible and there's threats and... That's not saying Odium wouldn't do it. But acting like Honor is not something Odium would necessarily want to do.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

The last wob makes me wonder if todium will change the internet of odium in some way. 

[Duxredux he/him]

Researching something else, Navani thought that Essu, Raboniel's daughter was of the same brand as Raboniel herself, the Fannahn-im. With only a single brand confirmed killed by this Anti-Voidlight, Todium and El may have wanted to test if Anti-Voidlight destroyed any Fused or only the Fannahn-im. 

[+robardin he/him]

Lezian himself wondered why he was reborn so quickly, in a way that Odium (Rayse) had discontinued - "I was on Braize for barely a day before I felt the pull" - only to be told things were Under New Management and the new Odium had "made an exception".

If he had spent a day on Braize ("barely a day" is not "less than a day"), then this interlude is happening one day after Lezian was killed by Kaladin.

And then, El tells him: "When we said we did not want to have to wait for your rebirth [via the next Everstorm], it was not your convenience that troubled us, but mine. I am very curious, you see, and you were the sole appropriate subject."

El speaks there in the first person, not first person plural, as he did initially. The "we" in "we did not want to have to wait [for the Everstorm]" is El and Odium, but this test is for El's curiosity and convenience, not Odium's.

What's the rush? Well, the obvious thing is: the Contest of Champions. It will occur in ten days after Taravangian's Ascension - which happened on the same day as Navani's bonding the Sibling and Kaladin swearing the Fourth Ideal, right? So if it's the next day, the Contest is now nine days away. Maybe less, since the time was set "at the tenth hour", and who knows what time of day it is in this scene.

The Everstorm occurs in roughly nine-day intervals. Though Odium can speed this cycle up, I think, that probably has some limitations, like maybe the current Everstorm is still going around Roshar and has only just passed Urithiru.

Whatever made Lezian "the sole appropriate subject" for the test in El's consideration, he wanted it done and confirmed before then.

Edited February 8 by robardin