Placement of the Contest

alder24 · January 8, 2024

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

It is good in the sense that using first aid techniques after a major accident is good. It is bad in the sense that the need to use these techniques exists in the first place.

They are picking the low risk/low reward option; thereby precluding getting a better deal later. Yet they are doing so by not using all incentives they have at hand, namely releasing Odium. They might have gotten Vedenar back.

Which would most likely end just like every other Desolation. The idea of this contest was to show Odium that this Desolation will be the same as others, that he won't win again, and that will make him willing to risk to agree to the contest. Radiants can't win Desolations for good.

Vedenar joined Odium by their own decision.

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I must disagree. Aren't they talking about adding adding Hoid as a protected representative to the treaty in Rhythm of War?

They were talking about it in RoW, this was likely included in Wit's terms, but those weren't accepted, there was no mention of Hoid in the final terms, he is still lacking protections.

+Oltux72 · January 8, 2024

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

Which would most likely end just like every other Desolation. The idea of this contest was to show Odium that this Desolation will be the same as others, that he won't win again, and that will make him willing to risk to agree to the contest. Radiants can't win Desolations for good.

Could you elaborate? It seems to me that this treaty, with some exceptions, turns this into yet another Desolation. It is set to repeat in a thousand years.

alder24 · January 8, 2024

48 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Could you elaborate? It seems to me that this treaty, with some exceptions, turns this into yet another Desolation. It is set to repeat in a thousand years.

I've said it earlier here, there is no deadline specified in the terms, no mention of 1000 years - those terms were rejected first by Odium, then by Dalinar. Final terms are meant to end this war between Honor&Cultivation and Odium. No repetition, a true ending.

Humanity can't win the True Desolation because of the Everstorm. Fused can freely respawn without going to Braize at all, Voidspren can freely provide form of powers to Singers. All of this without the need of Odium's involvement. To win this war you would literally have to kill every single Singer on Roshar. Restoring the Oathpact isn't any solution because Fused don't return to Braize anymore, they just go into the Everstorm, not to mention that the Oathpact failed to contain them in the first place. At best that would bring back the previous status quo from before Aharietiam, with Desolations eventually returning year after year. Radiants simply can't win this war, they can only prolong it, which will ultimately lead to their demise.

Radiants themselves aren't even united now. There are 2 Orders that work for Odium - Skybreakers and Dustbringers (while not openly, Dustbringer's spren want only to revenge the Recreance), Willshapers are now a neutral faction, Inkspren categorically refused to join, just like Honorspren up until the Adolin's trial (which doesn't fully solve this problem, because it revealed that ancient spren feared the Surgebinding powers will destroy Roshar and Blended thinks that's a bigger problem than a simple betrayal). That's basically half of Radiant Orders being against Honor's side, neutral or only granting limited support to it. Dalinar's coalition is at disadvantage when it comes to prolonging the war, because his Radiants grow way slower then they used to in the past (with only 4 Orders growing in numbers), while more and more Fused are Returning and more Regals and Warforms are gaining fighting experience.

Tbf most of Roshar is already under Odium's control - almost the entire east and north is either conquered or allied with Odium. Dalinar's situation isn't that good at all. Yes he won at Thaylen City in OB after losing Alethkar, now he won at Emul and regained Urithiru. Yet Odium gained more land than he lost. Iri continued their conquest eastwards around the Purelake, Herdaz fell and Jah Keved switched sides - the second military power on Roshar after Alethkar. Dalinar despite his victories is still losing the True Desolation.

Therefore, sitting at the negotiating table with Odium right now is probably the best Dalinar can do. Prolonging this war will either lead to stagnation or even more losses for Dalinar in the long run. Even if everything goes well on battlefields, this Desolation can't be stopped, Fused will be returning every 9 days just like Regals while losses will be mounting up. The True Desolation can't be won by Honor's side, it can't be even stopped.

Odium wants to have Roshar. Yes, he wants to be freed of it, but he doesn't want to abandon all what he created through millennia. Roshar is his training ground for his army that will conquer the entire Cosmere. He needs Roshar because Rosharans are the best fighters, prepared for 7000 years for combat. Now he is finally fully invested in Roshar and getting out is not as easy anymore. Setting Odium free is also not a solution like you proposed before, he wants and needs Roshar. OB ch 57:

Quote

“And what are the consequences of my releasing you?”
“Well, first I’d see to Cultivation’s death. There would be … other consequences, as you call them, as well.” [...]
“And you can’t just … leave?” Dalinar asked. “Without killing anyone?”
“Well, let me ask you this in return. Why did you seize control of Alethkar from poor Elhokar?”
“I…” Don’t reply. Don’t give him ammunition.
“You knew it was for the best,” Odium said. “You knew that Elhokar was weak, and the kingdom would suffer without firm leadership. You took control for the greater good, and it has served Roshar well.” [...]
“A man cannot serve two gods at once, Dalinar,” Odium said. “And so, I cannot leave her behind. In fact, I cannot leave behind the Splinters of Honor, as I once thought I could. I can already see that going wrong. Once you release me, my transformation of this realm will be substantial.”

Spoiler

Questioner

When one of the shards, like Odium, move from world to world in the cosmere, does their presence, like the metals they leave behind and their magic, leave with them?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium never really settled on a planet. He is now settled on Roshar and his magic has permeated things. Leaving would be very difficult for him. It would either involve leaving behind some of his power or ripping that out, which would be a difficult process. So yes it is very tough to leave.

Phoenix Comicon 2013 (May 24, 2013)

NH2316 · January 13, 2024

On 1/2/2024 at 4:36 AM, Oltux72 said:

Now, it may be that the Hoid/Jasnah chapter Brandon read out of marks the beginning of the end of the alliance between Hoid and the Rosharans.

Spoiler -

Spoiler

There's another sample chapter where Hoid implies he's withdrawing from Roshar for a while, and doesn't expect to see Kal again. Seems to take place after discovering his memories are messed with. Obviously, this could be hoid being hoid.....and he comes back, but the fact he gives Kal his obligatory story at what is still the beginning of the novel feels like he might mean it. Hoid was presumably driven by stopping Rayse, and now strongly suspects Rayse is dead and that the Rayse replacement has one up on him. Personally, I think Hoid is out for the foreseeable future to regroup and reassess, leaving the Rosharans to fend for themselves.

On 1/6/2024 at 9:06 AM, alder24 said:

Intent matters, that's why the words said earlier are important too. That's what they had in mind when finalizing terms. This is the spirit of their agreement. OB ch 122:

Quote

“Should we write … a contract?”
“Our word is the contract. I am not some spren of Honor, who seeks to obey only the strictest letter of a promise. If you have an agreement from me, I will keep it in spirit, not merely in word.”

This has really made me wonder....Intent matters, but whose Intent? For Intent vis a vis a contract, does that mean the Shard is bound in perpetuity irrespective of the vessel....or does the Vessel's intent matter here? Vessels have some intent separate from the Shards' Intent, though over time the Shard's intent seems to take over

Spoiler

(a la Ati/Ruin)

In these early stages of Taravodium, Taravangian as Vessel clearly has some measure of Intent different than Rayse and more importantly independent from the Shard overall.....otherwise he wouldn't be able to see/do things differently with the contract compared to Rayse (who held the Shard for tens of thousands of years). So, is the binding part of the contract, via Intent, applied to the shard regardless of the vessel? If so, that'd mean if a vessel took over who didn't agree with the contract negotiated by the previous vessel, the contract would implicitly go against the new vessel's Intent. Would a vessel with Intent strong enough to consider the contract void at the time of Ascension be able to do so, even if only in part?

Put simply: The contract is by its nature an agreement between sentient parties, namely Dalinar and Rayse the vessel..... So Rayse was bound by intent.....but is Taravangian?

My theory is either (like some have mentioned here) Taravangian does something that forces Dalinar back to the bargaining table (and the contest never happens), or (via this above possibility of a "Well it wasn't ME who made this deal" loophole) Taravangian ignores the contract in part or in whole (and the contest doesn't happen).

Ether way, I'd lay speculative odds on the contest not happening (or, if it does happen, occurring only in a Taravangian rigged game) being more likely than the contract actually happening.

alder24 · January 13, 2024

27 minutes ago, NH2316 said:

This has really made me wonder....Intent matters, but whose Intent? For Intent vis a vis a contract, does that mean the Shard is bound in perpetuity irrespective of the vessel....or does the Vessel's intent matter here? Vessels have some intent separate from the Shards' Intent, though over time the Shard's intent seems to take over

Intent as intention not Shardic intent in this case. What they meant when saying those words, when setting up terms - this matters. They've already rejected those terms that went against Shardic intent.

34 minutes ago, NH2316 said:

So, is the binding part of the contract, via Intent, applied to the shard regardless of the vessel?

Yes.

35 minutes ago, NH2316 said:

If so, that'd mean if a vessel took over who didn't agree with the contract negotiated by the previous vessel, the contract would implicitly go against the new vessel's Intent.

Vessel's intent? That's not a thing. Vessel's goals and perspective is what you're talking about. What matters is Shardic intent and Vessel's interpretation. Shardic intent is constant, Vessels can change and have different goals and interpretation. The terms are still binding however, even if they are against Vessel's goals. However Taravangian's new perspective can give him different interpretations on those terms, thus finding a loophole, but it's not like he purposely misinterprets those terms - he just sees them in a different light. RoW ch 116:

Quote

“Wit says the enemy can’t violate our agreement, and isn’t likely to try to misinterpret it—not intentionally"

40 minutes ago, NH2316 said:

Put simply: The contract is by its nature an agreement between sentient parties, namely Dalinar and Rayse the vessel..... So Rayse was bound by intent.....but is Taravangian?

Not Rayse, Odium as the whole. RoW ch 115:

Quote

He could end this war. Storms, Dalinar and Odium’s contract—which bound Taravangian just as soundly—would do that already.

What I meant is that the terms were established based on what Dalinar and Odium meant by saying those words. And what they've meant was said a page or two earlier. Sure it can be misinterpreted but it can't be changed because it's already done and set in stone.

NH2316 · January 13, 2024

30 minutes ago, alder24 said:

1 hour ago, NH2316 said:

If so, that'd mean if a vessel took over who didn't agree with the contract negotiated by the previous vessel, the contract would implicitly go against the new vessel's Intent.

Vessel's intent? That's not a thing. Vessel's goals and perspective is what you're talking about. What matters is Shardic intent and Vessel's interpretation. Shardic intent is constant, Vessels can change and have different goals and interpretation. The terms are still binding however, even if they are against Vessel's goals. However Taravangian's new perspective can give him different interpretations on those terms, thus finding a loophole, but it's not like he purposely misinterprets those terms - he just sees them in a different light. RoW ch 116:

Actually....I'd say that's more of an open question, unless you have canonical confirmation on some finer aspect of Intent mechanics relevant to this of which I'm unaware (completely possible!). Otherwise, the idea that "goals and perspective" are somehow different from Intent rather than just a semantic difference...well I think you could argue that both ways (and to me it certainly seems like semantics, but again that's just speculation in the absence of an in-canon answer, at least to my knowledge).

Generally speaking, to have goals and perspectives and actions imply making choices, which implies free-will, which in turn implies intention to make that choice. Action implies actor implies intent to act....roughly speaking. Of course, maybe the in-world metaphysics don't act like this; not everyone in the real world agrees with the idea that free-will and by extension choice exist in the way most people in Western cultures believe they do (aside: some Eastern philosophies are a bit more mixed on "free-will" as a concept, because the concept of free-will as Westerners understand it primarily comes from Judeo-Christian cultural traditions). With that said, I think it's a fairly safe bet to say Brandon the person and the Cosmere (as his creation) probably don't subscribe to the philosophical positions which violate/contradict this view of actors and actions.....e.g. that free-will does NOT exist at all, or that it exists only in the strictest Compatibalist / Hume-type interpretation. Again, of course these are possibilities, but I'm not aware of a confirmation out there where an in-world character says something like "Oh yeah Intent follows Hume rules and not St. Anselm or Descartes".....because that would be ridiculous! Anyway, the point is the fact that since a vessel does act (or even the fact the vessel has goals and perspectives as you put it) it almost certainly implies the Vessel has Intent in this world.

The question then comes down to "Whose Intent?". Do the actions/goals/interpretations of the Vessel have anything to do with the Vessel's person? Or are they a Vessel in the most literal sense - i.e. The vessel is just a non-thinking non-acting husk of a container that the Shard's power acts through. In other words, does the container get part of the say in the Shards' actions (and therefore Intent).... and if so how much does this say matter to guide actions? Harmony's letter to Hoid in RoW is about this exact question, and they appear to disagree:

"You say that the power itself must be treated as separate in our minds from the Vessel who controls it. I find this difficult to do on an intrinsic level, as although I am neither Ruin nor Preservation, they make up me. Regardless, I will try to do as you suggest. However, you seem more afraid of the Vessel. I warn you that this is a flaw in your understanding. However, though you think not as a mortal, you are their kin. The power of Odium’s Shard is more dangerous than the mind behind it. Particularly since any Investiture seems to gain a will of its own when not controlled. My instincts say that the power of Odium is not being controlled well. The Vessel will be adapted to the power’s will. And after this long, if Odium is still seeking to destroy, then it is because of the power. Of course, I admit this is a small quibble. A difference of semantics more than anything. In truth, it would be a combination of a Vessel’s craftiness and the power’s Intent that we should fear most. Regardless, please make yourself known to me when you travel my lands. It is distressing that you think you need to move in the shadows."

Hoid seems to be more "Pro" for the idea that the vessel can guide the shards' actions, while Harmony is a lot more cautious about how much a Vessel can override the Intent inherent to the Shard's power. That said, even Harmony doesn't seem to rule out the idea that the Vessel has some say in what the Shard does in its actions and interpretations (which again, action implies actor implies Intent to act and probably therefore "Intent" in this world). He warns that the combination of Vessel and Shard's power is a real potential problem.....even if he is of the opinion that the power, rather than the vessel, is the more dangerous part of the Shard overall.

Point being, if it's not clear to Hoid and Harmony that the Vessel affects Intent (and indeed they seem to both think it does, but are just differing on degrees) it's clearly an open question in the world. In fact, it would be pretty lame if it wasn't an open question and I fully suspect there's no point at which this in-world metaphysical question will be definitively answered....just like the analogous question in real life (via literally thousands of years of philosophy debating questions related to "free-will" and human intent).

....Which then gets to the below. I take your point that when Rayse was the vessel there was clearly no getting out of the contract by all in-world indication. But....all this happened before Taravangian Ascended. So, if a vessel can affect the Shards' overall Intent, everything binding the Shard by intent before ascension could be moot.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

RoW ch 116:

Quote

“Wit says the enemy can’t violate our agreement, and isn’t likely to try to misinterpret it—not intentionally"

2 hours ago, NH2316 said:

Put simply: The contract is by its nature an agreement between sentient parties, namely Dalinar and Rayse the vessel..... So Rayse was bound by intent.....but is Taravangian?

Not Rayse, Odium as the whole. RoW ch 115:

Quote

He could end this war. Storms, Dalinar and Odium’s contract—which bound Taravangian just as soundly—would do that already.

What I meant is that the terms were established based on what Dalinar and Odium meant by saying those words. And what they've meant was said a page or two earlier. Sure it can be misinterpreted but it can't be changed because it's already done and set in stone.

Of course, it totally might not work like that. There's near-endless possibilities....it is fantasy... But it certainly doesn't seem crazy or impossible to me. If it does work out that the differences in Rayse and Taravangian as people, via the effect of each on the Shard's actions, leads the latter to be able to do things the former couldn't regarding the contract....well, I think that'd be a really clever and interesting narrative choice. It would pay off Harmony's worry above in a profound dramatic irony for both themselves and Hoid - Harmony is worried that a really crafty and terrible Vessel plus a Shard like Odium is bad news, but they're ostensibly thinking of Rayse as the worst possible example here. What if Taravangian plus Odium is actually worse?

(Personally I think it's a decent bet he will be....it sure seems to be the most obvious reason for that twist Ascension in the first place).

alder24 · January 13, 2024

10 minutes ago, NH2316 said:

Actually....I'd say that's more of an open question, unless you have canonical confirmation on some finer aspect of Intent mechanics relevant to this of which I'm unaware (completely possible!). Otherwise, the idea that "goals and perspective" are somehow different from Intent rather than just a semantic difference...well I think you could argue that both ways (and to me it certainly seems like semantics, but again that's just speculation in the absence of an in-canon answer, at least to my knowledge).

I think you misunderstand the difference between general intent and Shardic intent. In general intent is just a will to do something - you want and mean to do something and that's the intent. Shardic Intent is its name which encompasses whole ideas which defines what Shard can do or can't - Honor, Odium, Cultivation those are Intents. Shards are made out of two components - the power and the Vessel. The power has no mind on its own, the Vessel is the mind of the power. However the power has its Intent, which pushes on Vessel's mind slowly changing it and aligning it with power's Intent - like by the end Honor stopped caring about meaning of oaths, he cared only if they were upheld.

So yes, the general intent is a free will, a choice and decision, a Vessel can choose and there is intent behind every action a Vessel makes. But Shardic power has no mind of its own, it can't choose, it can't act, it is bound by its Intent and that restricts what the Vessel can do with the power - like Cultivation can't promote stasis because that defines her Intent, even if its Vessel wants it badly. But it's not like a Vessel has a specific Intent like a Shard does.

20 minutes ago, NH2316 said:

The question then comes down to "Whose Intent?". Do the actions/goals/interpretations of the Vessel have anything to do with the Vessel's person? Or are they a Vessel in the most literal sense - i.e. The vessel is just a non-thinking non-acting husk of a container that the Shard's power acts through. In other words, does the container get part of the say in the Shards' actions (and therefore Intent).... and if so how much does this say matter to guide actions? Harmony's letter to Hoid in RoW is about this exact question, and they appear to disagree:

The Vessel IS the mind of the Shard, they decide and act. Power alone has no mind on its own. It doesn't act. It's Vessel's desires that spark action which are filtered through power's Intent. The Vessel's personality is slowly changed to fit power's Intent over years, the mind is shaped by the Intent of the Shard.

However a Vessel can influence Shardic Intent and even change it - that was what Rayse was trying to do with Odium, change it to Passion and wasn't really successful with that. Mistborn spoiler:

Spoiler

Ati was successful in expressing Ruin's Intent as entropy and Sazed fully merged two Shards and became Harmony.

Spoiler

Alvaro Lopez

Why Odium is stronger and worst evil than Ruin?

Brandon Sanderson

One reason is that Ruin had a person in control of it who, for many years, fought against the impulse to destroy--and in the end, channeled it toward entropy and decay, necessary elements of the universe. Odium represents something else entirely.

General Twitter 2018 (June 6, 2018)

Spoiler

Argent

When Sazed picked up the Shards of Preservation and Ruin, did he actively choose to be known as Harmony (instead of, for example, Balance, or Equilibrium, or Stability), or is there some Cosmeric law that says Preservation + Ruin = Harmony?

Brandon Sanderson

He chose the name, but in part because it FELT right to him.

Argent

Is this similar to how a Shard's "personality" overwrites the Shardholder's over time?

Brandon Sanderson

Similar, yes.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 17, 2015)

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Shards and Shard intents: Holding a Shard is a contest of willpower against the Shard that, over time, is very hard to resist.

Shards affect you over time, but your mind will not leave a permanent effect on the Shard. A holder's [Vessel's] personality, however, does get to filter the Shard's intent, so to speak. However, if that holder [Vessel] no longer held that Shard, the Shard will not continue to be filtered by that person.

Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011)

Spoiler

Necarion

Do Vessels have any flexibility in expressing the intent of a Shard, particularly if the intent is open to many interpretations?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes they do. So, the Vessel's mind and how they perceive is going to have a large influence on how things are expressed and I think all of them have some wiggle room. But there are some deterministic things that are also going to push them. You know, holding Ruin, Harmony may not go down the same path that happened to Ati.

Necarion

So Sadeas would express Honor differently than Tanavast?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes he would.

Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016)

Is it possible that Autonomy is one such, and has multiple personalities?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

RAFO.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 17, 2019)

32 minutes ago, NH2316 said:

....Which then gets to the below. I take your point that when Rayse was the vessel there was clearly no getting out of the contract by all in-world indication. But....all this happened before Taravangian Ascended. So, if a vessel can affect the Shards' overall Intent, everything binding the Shard by intent before ascension could be moot.

No because the Shard was bound by contract and just what Rayse meant when saying terms doesn't change Odium's Intent. When I said "intent matters" I was talking about that when Dalinar and Odium were speaking the final terms, they meant what they've discussed a 1 or 2 page earlier, and thus they wanted to end the war for good. Odium made an Oath, a binding Oath, Taravangian can't change it because he is now Odium, he is still bound, which was said in the quote I've posted. All of this really doesn't matter in the context of what I said back then. It's not about "whose intent matters" it's just what they had in mind when setting the final terms - that's it. "Vessel's intent" can't push against Shardic Intent, Vessel can't do something that opposes power's Intent.

Spoiler

Striker_EZ

Why didn't Odium take the Investiture away from the Fused that rebelled against him at the end of Rhythm of War? At the end of Oathbringer, Odium tells one Fused that questioned him that he could take "that which gave [the Fused] life." So why didn't he do that to Leshwi and the others?

Brandon Sanderson

This is actually an excellent question. Odium, in his previous incarnation-- we'll see how he acts now-- part of the driving force of Odium is this kind of belief, mistaken or otherwise, that Odium represents all emotion, and strength of emotion, and basically the Passions in lore. Rebelling against him in the way that they did is actually in line with Odium's personal directives. The Vessel may not like it, in fact the power may not like it, but at the same time, there's a part of both of them that acknowledges, this is what they set in motion, and this is an appropriate use of the agency of the agents they chose. And so, unilaterally destroying those who turn against him is actually not an Odium thing. It's more an Honor thing than it would be an Odium thing. It's just not in line with how Odium acts or thinks, even though it's possible and there's threats and... That's not saying Odium wouldn't do it. But acting like Honor is not something Odium would necessarily want to do.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

What Harmony was talking about in the letter was that Odium as the power is very hard to control. It drives its Vessel to seek destruction and it's selfish by nature. Rayse is ambitious, crafty, selfish and wants to be the sole god of Cosmere - which is a bad combination with the power like Odium. He chose it deliberately thinking it matched his personality the best.

RoW ch 114:

Quote

Free to destroy! To burn! To wreak havoc and terror upon those who had doubted him!

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Odium wants to be the only Shard. Odium could pick up other Shards if he wants to, but, he doesn't want to. His Shard is a good match for his personality and he doesn't want to be influenced by another Shard.

Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011)

Spoiler

Autarchk

If I can ask a question, I just read the Mistborn trilogy and, were Preservation and Ruin two different shards or a single one with their power split somehow? If they were two shards, does that mean a single person can hold more than one, since Harmony apparently holds both now?

Brandon Sanderson

They were two shards.

Yes, one entity can hold more than one. Remember that holding a shard changes you, over time. Rayse knows this, and prefers to leave behind destroyed rivals as opposed to taking their power and potentially being overwhelmed by it.

Nepene

I have a question, if you are willing. Would Ruin be more compatible with Rayse, would he pick up that shard had he visited Scadrial and shattered him? All the shards we have seen that he has shattered seem rather different in intent than him- Honor, Cultivation, Love, Dominion. But Ruin seems more in line with Odium. Rayse has ruined the days of quite a few people.

Brandon Sanderson

Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy. That power, separated from the whole and being held by a person who did not have the willpower to resist its transformation of him, led to something very dangerous. But it was not evil. None of the sixteen technically are, though you may have read that Hoid has specific beef with Rayse. Whether you think of Odium as evil depends upon how much you agree with Hoid's particular view.

That said, Ruin would have been one of the 'safer' of the sixteen for Rayse to take, if he'd been about that. Odium is by its nature selfish, however, and the combination of it and Rayse makes for an entity that fears an additional power would destroy it and make it into something else.

General Reddit 2013 (March 14, 2013)

NH2316 · January 13, 2024

I'm not certain any of that changes what I said. Yes the Shardic Intent (from the power) can't be overwritten entirely, particularly in the long run, but clearly the actions of the Shard as a total Mind + Power entity can be influenced by the Vessel (as the mind).....we know that specifically because of all the examples you cite here. The shard isn't just the power, it's the mind plus the power. So too, then, must the actions of the Shard as a whole entity be both driven by the mind and the power.....and again since action implies actor implies intent....the total entity has an Intent that is some amalgamation of the Intent of the power and the Intent of the Mind. THat's not really that different than human intention, in fact.....your actions (and therefore your lower-case "i" intent) are an amalgamation of emotions and cognitive reasoning (and depending on spiritual or cultural beliefs, some component of "soul"). A person's "mind" and "heart" (and/or "soul") may be in direct conflict in choice and intention, yet ultimately an overall intention leads to a singular action and thereby a singular choice..... all after the compromise/amalgamation of these various components of the person pushing things in one direction or the other.

45 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No because the Shard was bound by contract and just what Rayse meant when saying terms doesn't change Odium's Intent. When I said "intent matters" I was talking about that when Dalinar and Odium were speaking the final terms, they meant what they've discussed a 1 or 2 page earlier, and thus they wanted to end the war for good. Odium made an Oath, a binding Oath, Taravangian can't change it because he is now Odium, he is still bound, which was said in the quote I've posted. All of this really doesn't matter in the context of what I said back then. It's not about "whose intent matters" it's just what they had in mind when setting the final terms - that's it. "Vessel's intent" can't push against Shardic Intent, Vessel can't do something that opposes power's Intent.

By your own definition, the Vessel at least has some control over perception. So....what's stopping a new vessel from perceiving that contract differently than the old one? Doing so has nothing to do with the Shardic Intent....the Odium Shard's Intent isn't to uphold oaths in the most honorable way possible (that's....Honor). Doing something that completely violates the spirit of the Oath (but follows the letter) seems not only to not be in conflict with the Odium Shardic Intent....it's arguably baked in to it. Yeah, Rayse as Odium didn't or couldn't see it that way, but just as you've cited he also did/perceived a lot of things that probably were from him the vessel and not the Shardic Intent (like re-branding himself as passion, through some sense of self-delusion that Brandon mentions in that quote). Clearly, Taravangian does and can see the Oath as malleable in spirit (if not in letter) - evidenced by the fact he says so. If the Shardic Intent prevented that....then it would have prevented that.

Maybe that's not Intent (and I'm not certain it isn't), but if not it's ultimately immaterial. Put differently - even if you think a vessel's perceptions don't count as "capital I" Intent and are some kind of "lower-case i" general intent....it really doesn't matter - it's just semantics. I agree the Shard (both the power and the mind) is bound by an Oath, but the perception of what is or is not allowed by an Oath is what determines an individuals' actions under that oath. That's how oaths work - they're a promise that only has value if all the involved parties understand (i.e. perceive) that promise in the same way.

Seems to me the change in Vessel has to at least theoretically allows the Shard (i.e. the Mind plus the Power) to act differently and make different choices with regards to the oath. Otherwise....the Vessel is NOT the Shards "mind" but just an empty husk blindly led by the Shardic Intent.

Edited January 13, 2024 by NH2316

alder24 · January 13, 2024

5 minutes ago, NH2316 said:

I'm not certain any of that changes what I said. Yes the Shardic Intent (from the power) can't be overwritten entirely, particularly in the long run, but clearly the actions of the Shard as a total Mind + Power entity can be influenced by the Vessel (as the mind).....we know that specifically because of all the examples you cite here. The shard isn't just the power, it's the mind plus the power. So too, then, must the actions of the Shard as a whole entity be both driven by the mind and the power.....and again since action implies actor implies intent....the total entity has an Intent that is some amalgamation of the Intent of the power and the Intent of the Mind. THat's not really that different than human intention, in fact.....your actions (and therefore your lower-case "i" intent) are an amalgamation of emotions and cognitive reasoning (and depending on spiritual or cultural beliefs, some component of "soul"). A person's "mind" and "heart" (and/or "soul") may be in direct conflict in choice and intention, yet ultimately an overall intention leads to a singular action and thereby a singular choice..... all after the compromise/amalgamation of these various components of the person pushing things in one direction or the other.

Yeah, something like that. The word "Intent" in the context of Shards has a very specific meaning and when you say "Vessel's intent" it implies the overall drive that Vessel has, similar to Shardic Intent. But that's just Vessel's will and decision they made, not some grand driving force like Shardic Intent is.

8 minutes ago, NH2316 said:

By your own definition, the Vessel at least has some control over perception.

The Vessel perception is important, just like everything in Cosmere, your perception can change a lot.

9 minutes ago, NH2316 said:

So....what's stopping a new vessel from perceiving that contract differently than the old one?

Well, nothing as long as this perception fits within the boundaries of the accepted terms. Like he can't say that "I will continue this war" or that "the Contest will happen on the 11th day" or something like that. Those terms are clearly defined and he can't change that. What his perception can change is for example the meaning of "maintaining peace and not working against Dalinar and his allies" and deciding "Azir isn’t your ally because xyz" or something like that.

17 minutes ago, NH2316 said:

Doing something that completely violates the spirit of the Oath (but follows the letter) seems not only to not be in conflict with the Odium Shardic Intent....it's arguably baked in to it.

No. Odium isn't about "tricking" in following Oaths or something like that. Odium is about hatred, conflict and emotions. But yes, he can probably follow the letter of Oath and bend the spirit a little bit. I would say the spirit is still binding to Shards in general, but there is some wiggle room for perception.

21 minutes ago, NH2316 said:

Maybe that's not Intent (and I'm not certain it isn't), but if not it's ultimately immaterial. Put differently - even if you think a vessel's perceptions don't count as "capital I" Intent and are some kind of "lower-case i" general intent....it really doesn't matter - it's just semantics.

Vessel's perception is just that, perception, how they view things. "Vessel's intent" is what they mean and Shardic Intent is what the power is.

23 minutes ago, NH2316 said:

Seems to me the change in Vessel has to at least theoretically allows the Shard (i.e. the Mind plus the Power) to act differently and make different choices with regards to the oath.

Yes, because Taravangian has a brand new and fresh perception, unaffected by Shardic Intent to the overwhelming levels like Rayse was.

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